Period Nazi's as I was introduced(had it explained to me) to them were the snobbish peers who instead of helping took delight in picking apart peoples work like checking hems during a handshake ect.. You know basically the people that think they know it all and don't help in a constructive manner.
LS
So You Want To Be An SCA Knight: Weapons Forms Appropriate T
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Jean Richard Malcolmson
- Archive Member
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- Location: Whitehouse, TX, USA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alcyoneus:
Ansteorra has the Order of the Lion, a grant level award for personna, essentially.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Minor Correction.
Though the award of Lion of Ansteorra is highly coveted, rare (once per reign, max.) and highly respected, it caries no precedence, meaning it is lower than an AoA on the Order of Precedence. That just makes it all the more spiffy.
Regards,
Jean Richard
Ansteorra has the Order of the Lion, a grant level award for personna, essentially.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Minor Correction.
Though the award of Lion of Ansteorra is highly coveted, rare (once per reign, max.) and highly respected, it caries no precedence, meaning it is lower than an AoA on the Order of Precedence. That just makes it all the more spiffy.
Regards,
Jean Richard
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Vitus von Atzinger
- Archive Member
- Posts: 14039
- Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Louisville, Ky. USA
Because SCA combat is essentially a race to see who will land a "killing" blow first, the types of tourney weapons what tend to favor speed have become the most popular. This is why there are more unpadded glaives than poleaxes, and more single-handed swords than maces or battle-axes. I am not saying that this automatically makes regular SCA combat stupid or worthless- because it doesn't. This is the way it evolved after the initial events.
The fact of the matter is this- for you to be a KSCA, you should be able to display knightly prowess with the weapons that are commonly seen in SCA lists. Once you know what is medieval about SCA combat and what isn't, it shouldn't be that big of a deal any more. There is every possibility that the weapons you SHOULD be using -the proper ones for your persona- will greatly inhibit your ability to do what it takes to become an KSCA. You need to impress SCA knights!
It is so easy to make armour that looks perfectly accurate that will not hinder your ability to fight competitively.
If you want to wear a buttload of authentic plate and want to engage in combat with other people who are trying to do the later periods correctly- there are chances to do this. Not many chances to do this, but that is changing very quickly. It is up to these guys to create period-specific tournaments where the playing field is EVEN.
Now, some of these guys who are authenticity-minded may just have to create multiple harnesses so that they can compete on all these required levels. If you want to be a KSCA, you have to be flexible. Your first goal is to be competant with the current system. Other systems are being introduced, and there will be plenty of opportunities to explore the more authentic forms later. A guy with a heavy poleaxe is just never going to be able to compete with guys with unpadded sticks.
Complaining and getting upset will not help you become a KSCA. You have to be able to adapt your vision without pissing all over the way things are now. It can be done! I know some people who prove it! Don't despair and refrain from bitching and moaning. Adapt! Srive to excel while offering alternative formats! Lead by example!
-V
The fact of the matter is this- for you to be a KSCA, you should be able to display knightly prowess with the weapons that are commonly seen in SCA lists. Once you know what is medieval about SCA combat and what isn't, it shouldn't be that big of a deal any more. There is every possibility that the weapons you SHOULD be using -the proper ones for your persona- will greatly inhibit your ability to do what it takes to become an KSCA. You need to impress SCA knights!
It is so easy to make armour that looks perfectly accurate that will not hinder your ability to fight competitively.
If you want to wear a buttload of authentic plate and want to engage in combat with other people who are trying to do the later periods correctly- there are chances to do this. Not many chances to do this, but that is changing very quickly. It is up to these guys to create period-specific tournaments where the playing field is EVEN.
Now, some of these guys who are authenticity-minded may just have to create multiple harnesses so that they can compete on all these required levels. If you want to be a KSCA, you have to be flexible. Your first goal is to be competant with the current system. Other systems are being introduced, and there will be plenty of opportunities to explore the more authentic forms later. A guy with a heavy poleaxe is just never going to be able to compete with guys with unpadded sticks.
Complaining and getting upset will not help you become a KSCA. You have to be able to adapt your vision without pissing all over the way things are now. It can be done! I know some people who prove it! Don't despair and refrain from bitching and moaning. Adapt! Srive to excel while offering alternative formats! Lead by example!
-V
I fight with different things because it is fun, and that's why I'm here.
Chef- you ask
I ask you, why do you think that the only way to have fun at this is to be completely, 100% historically correct down to the underwear? I don't wander around complaining about how anal the reenactors (hell, I'm one myself) are, so why do you feel this need to constantly harp on the SCA? I'm pretty sure your group has it's share of idiots; we just have more, 'cause we're so big. You might as well ask why it's fun to do medieval, when Rev War or Civil War are more relevent to our modern society.
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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
Chef- you ask
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Why is it that people seem to think that the only way to "HAVE FUN" is to make a historical hash out of things? Cannot doing something the historically accurate way BE FUN? I certainly think it can be and is.</font>
I ask you, why do you think that the only way to have fun at this is to be completely, 100% historically correct down to the underwear? I don't wander around complaining about how anal the reenactors (hell, I'm one myself) are, so why do you feel this need to constantly harp on the SCA? I'm pretty sure your group has it's share of idiots; we just have more, 'cause we're so big. You might as well ask why it's fun to do medieval, when Rev War or Civil War are more relevent to our modern society.
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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
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chef de chambre
- Archive Member
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Hi Owen,
My point, which I thought was obvious, is that striving for historical accuracy can be fun. On this board, it is often assumed that pursuing such a goal is not fun - this was specificaly alluded to in the post I replied to.
If I didn't think what I did for a hobby was fun, I would chose another hobby. I am grieved to see those who chose to pursue accuracy within the Society are often hounded by those who seem to think that any pursuit of accuracy is somehow a threat to their having fun.
As I am not in the society, I don't care if you start to "recreate" cavemen, martians, or 60's radicals. You can roll in mud and run around naked as far as I care, it doesn't affect me.
Actually, I don't think my particular company has "it's share of idiots", we are blessed with a bunch of people of nice disposition cabable of thinking for themselves, researching, and with an actual interest in what we are doing.
I will say I have met "my share of idiots" in the larger world (still a small one) of 15th century reenactment/LH. We will probably end up with one eventually, as odds are in favour of there eventually being one in every group.
In conclusion, I am not "harping on the SCA", I am trying to help those who want to strive for accuracy within it. I don't care one way or another about those who do not, unless they jump on someone who I see giving a fig about authenticity. That boob, I will consider fair game.
I find it hard to believe you are currently active in the reenactment community, or have been for any length of time, given the general set of attitudes you espouse on this board. That is, unless you are what reenactors call in the community a Farb.
As a Historian, I think the past is relevant to both the present, and future. But then again, reading, research, and anything that smacks of effort are just to much for the lazy and shiftless.
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Bob R.
My point, which I thought was obvious, is that striving for historical accuracy can be fun. On this board, it is often assumed that pursuing such a goal is not fun - this was specificaly alluded to in the post I replied to.
If I didn't think what I did for a hobby was fun, I would chose another hobby. I am grieved to see those who chose to pursue accuracy within the Society are often hounded by those who seem to think that any pursuit of accuracy is somehow a threat to their having fun.
As I am not in the society, I don't care if you start to "recreate" cavemen, martians, or 60's radicals. You can roll in mud and run around naked as far as I care, it doesn't affect me.
Actually, I don't think my particular company has "it's share of idiots", we are blessed with a bunch of people of nice disposition cabable of thinking for themselves, researching, and with an actual interest in what we are doing.
I will say I have met "my share of idiots" in the larger world (still a small one) of 15th century reenactment/LH. We will probably end up with one eventually, as odds are in favour of there eventually being one in every group.
In conclusion, I am not "harping on the SCA", I am trying to help those who want to strive for accuracy within it. I don't care one way or another about those who do not, unless they jump on someone who I see giving a fig about authenticity. That boob, I will consider fair game.
I find it hard to believe you are currently active in the reenactment community, or have been for any length of time, given the general set of attitudes you espouse on this board. That is, unless you are what reenactors call in the community a Farb.
As a Historian, I think the past is relevant to both the present, and future. But then again, reading, research, and anything that smacks of effort are just to much for the lazy and shiftless.
------------------
Bob R.
M. Didius Ovinvs, Legio XX Valeria Victrex
And I have no trouble seperating the SCA from my reenacting; in fact, I find the contrast to be refreshing. My 'attitudes' are generally in dealing with SCA issues, where such are appropriate. When I talk about reenacting and the Legion, I maintain very high levels of authenticity. For that matter, my SCA armor is fairly authentic, as well, with modifications made to satisfy the Rules of the Lists. If you've bothered to read into my posts, you'd know that. But as I must be new or farb, I've gotten used to being alternately ignored or denigrated by you. Or, as in your latest post, insulted.
This thread asked a simple question that is only really germaine to SCA combat, so why do you care?
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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
And I have no trouble seperating the SCA from my reenacting; in fact, I find the contrast to be refreshing. My 'attitudes' are generally in dealing with SCA issues, where such are appropriate. When I talk about reenacting and the Legion, I maintain very high levels of authenticity. For that matter, my SCA armor is fairly authentic, as well, with modifications made to satisfy the Rules of the Lists. If you've bothered to read into my posts, you'd know that. But as I must be new or farb, I've gotten used to being alternately ignored or denigrated by you. Or, as in your latest post, insulted.
This thread asked a simple question that is only really germaine to SCA combat, so why do you care?
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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
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chef de chambre
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Hi Owen,
Last I checked, I had the right to hold an opinion on a topic and people can judge wether my opinion is valid or not. I argue the case for the importance of the 'panoply', or the entire system of combat relevant to the martial art of the era represented in the HWMA community - which I am told by many, loudly and long that the SCA combat system is a valid part of. If this is the case, then I am making my point for the relevance of the full panoply of a specific era as being a valid study of that era of martial art.
Have you done any non-Roman reenactment? Anything post Medieval? That is a very small pond, and other than Mathew Amt's group, in the US there isn't the same level of 'minimum standards' as understood by other era's reenactment groups. Or any other group than Mathew's that would be recognised as a reenactment group by the average member of the reenactment community. If that is all you have experienced, then I think you have a very limited view of the community.
I am guilty of being amused to some small degree by what I read as your responses to my various posts, but it is a minor diversion, and not my principle intent in posting.
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Bob R.
[This message has been edited by chef de chambre (edited 01-07-2002).]
Last I checked, I had the right to hold an opinion on a topic and people can judge wether my opinion is valid or not. I argue the case for the importance of the 'panoply', or the entire system of combat relevant to the martial art of the era represented in the HWMA community - which I am told by many, loudly and long that the SCA combat system is a valid part of. If this is the case, then I am making my point for the relevance of the full panoply of a specific era as being a valid study of that era of martial art.
Have you done any non-Roman reenactment? Anything post Medieval? That is a very small pond, and other than Mathew Amt's group, in the US there isn't the same level of 'minimum standards' as understood by other era's reenactment groups. Or any other group than Mathew's that would be recognised as a reenactment group by the average member of the reenactment community. If that is all you have experienced, then I think you have a very limited view of the community.
I am guilty of being amused to some small degree by what I read as your responses to my various posts, but it is a minor diversion, and not my principle intent in posting.
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Bob R.
[This message has been edited by chef de chambre (edited 01-07-2002).]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chef de chambre:
[B]Hi Owen,
"I am grieved to see those who chose to pursue accuracy within the Society are often hounded by those who seem to think that any pursuit of accuracy is somehow a threat to their having fun."
Not to jump in on a disagreement, but I am flat out puzzled by your statement. I have encountered indifference to authenticity, but never hostility. How has someone been "hounded"?
[B]Hi Owen,
"I am grieved to see those who chose to pursue accuracy within the Society are often hounded by those who seem to think that any pursuit of accuracy is somehow a threat to their having fun."
Not to jump in on a disagreement, but I am flat out puzzled by your statement. I have encountered indifference to authenticity, but never hostility. How has someone been "hounded"?
Chef-I never said you don't have a right to an opinion, I asked why you even cared about a system you so obviously despise. You asked why a Knight should teach (or, presumably, know) weapons that their persona wouldn't know, isn't the panopoly enough? For an SCA Knight, no, it isn't. That's how we're set up. If you actually played here, you'd know that. As for your statement <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I am grieved to see those who chose to pursue accuracy within the Society are often hounded by those who seem to think that any pursuit of accuracy is somehow a threat to their having fun.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>, it seems to me that those of us who do pursue accuracy, but not to the level you choose to, are often hounded by you for not being up to snuff. Not that you pursue accuracy in the SCA, or even attempt to improve our lot, but more seem to enjoy cutting down those who do not meet your standards. I've never seen any reaction but "Wow" to anyone who tried to be more historically accurate, from a SCAdian.
You do understand that I'm in Matthew Amt's group? When called upon, I throw a mean pila, and can repress the locals with the best of them. I don't do any other groups right now, I'm having too much fun hitting people with sticks.
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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>, it seems to me that those of us who do pursue accuracy, but not to the level you choose to, are often hounded by you for not being up to snuff. Not that you pursue accuracy in the SCA, or even attempt to improve our lot, but more seem to enjoy cutting down those who do not meet your standards. I've never seen any reaction but "Wow" to anyone who tried to be more historically accurate, from a SCAdian.
You do understand that I'm in Matthew Amt's group? When called upon, I throw a mean pila, and can repress the locals with the best of them. I don't do any other groups right now, I'm having too much fun hitting people with sticks.
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
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chef de chambre
- Archive Member
- Posts: 28806
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- Location: Nashua, N.H. U.S.
- Contact:
Hi Owen,
Care to document this?
I have spent the better part of five years on this board helping people with questions regarding authenticity. This is regardless of their group affiliations. You can go to the authenticity board and see very recent posts by myself helping people.
Would you care to point out some posts where I have disparaged people? You take my posts and interpret them the way you do, because you do not like your own perceptions to be challenged. I might note that you fired the first shot across my bow in this engagement. I do not seek conflict, but I sure as hell do not run from it, certainly not from your annoyance with my speaking my mind on this topic.
And I've spent five years watching people being called "athenticity nazi's" (sorry Norman, just quoting the term most often used) when they try to improve or suggest means of improving the overall authenticity of the Society. I know of several incidents of people being publicly booed for their efforts of authenticity (Estrella '96) (for you Mordreth)
I have stated publicly on many occassions that I do not despise the SCA. Perhaps you have confused my disagreements over the definition of what constitutes HWMA with a "despising" of the system. My point has been merely that unless one is studying a system historically know to have been used, then one is not studying a HWMA. I encourage those within the Society to study HWMA systems, and apply them to Society combat as allowed by the rules. I also encourage non-SCA sanctioned tourney company events where the rules of engagement can be expanded to allow more of the historic technique to be used.
The statements I have made are precisely relevant to this thread. This thread is about the precise point that perhaps it SHOULD be set up to encourage weapon use appropriate to persona. Since that is the point of this thread as posted by Richard, what I was writing is relevant. Your attempt to hijack the thread by obscuring the original point, or by attempting to stifle my opinion is what is off topic in this thread.
and in reply
I add the emphasis in case the point is missed.
Have you ever participated in reenactment outside this small era? I ask this because you call yourself a reenactor, and claim to be experienced regarding same. I do not call myself an SCAdian.
Yes, I know he has raised the XX. How often do you participate with him? I belonged as a paying member in good standing to the "White Company" in England for over a year, yet I never have taken the field with them. The reason I ask you this is that you seem to find the pursuit of authenticity in the SCA by others to be offensive, and since Matt's group is very anal about same, I would think you would not care for that level of dedication to a portrayal.
If you like to seperate the two entirely, that Reenactment is the place to pursue authenticity, but the SCA is not, then what you would do is deprive others of that pursuit. You are lucky to live within long driving distance of an authenticity inspired Roman reenactment group. Most people who would like to pursue authenticity within the society do not have that luxury - the SCA is the only group within reach for them. Would you discourage their attempts to strive for authenticity, if that is what they desire?
I am constantly amused by the people like yourself within the Society, that assume I despise it. I spend hours of my free time trying to help people within the Society reach their goals. At the same time, I hear from people in the reenactment community "why the hell do you bother with those people? They obviously don't care - you are wasting your efforts." I am damned if I do, and I am damned if I don't.
I would suggest that Richards thread has been more than derailed enough by your animosity to me. I would suggest that either we let this drop, or you can take it offline to me if you find it so offensive Owen.
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Bob R.
Care to document this?
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Not that you pursue accuracy in the SCA, or even attempt to improve our lot, but more seem to enjoy cutting down those who do not meet your standards.</font>
I have spent the better part of five years on this board helping people with questions regarding authenticity. This is regardless of their group affiliations. You can go to the authenticity board and see very recent posts by myself helping people.
Would you care to point out some posts where I have disparaged people? You take my posts and interpret them the way you do, because you do not like your own perceptions to be challenged. I might note that you fired the first shot across my bow in this engagement. I do not seek conflict, but I sure as hell do not run from it, certainly not from your annoyance with my speaking my mind on this topic.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I've never seen any reaction but "Wow" to anyone who tried to be more historically accurate, from a SCAdian.</font>
And I've spent five years watching people being called "athenticity nazi's" (sorry Norman, just quoting the term most often used) when they try to improve or suggest means of improving the overall authenticity of the Society. I know of several incidents of people being publicly booed for their efforts of authenticity (Estrella '96) (for you Mordreth)
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I asked why you even cared about a system you so obviously despise.</font>
I have stated publicly on many occassions that I do not despise the SCA. Perhaps you have confused my disagreements over the definition of what constitutes HWMA with a "despising" of the system. My point has been merely that unless one is studying a system historically know to have been used, then one is not studying a HWMA. I encourage those within the Society to study HWMA systems, and apply them to Society combat as allowed by the rules. I also encourage non-SCA sanctioned tourney company events where the rules of engagement can be expanded to allow more of the historic technique to be used.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">For an SCA Knight, no, it isn't. That's how we're set up. If you actually played here, you'd know that. As for your statement </font>
The statements I have made are precisely relevant to this thread. This thread is about the precise point that perhaps it SHOULD be set up to encourage weapon use appropriate to persona. Since that is the point of this thread as posted by Richard, what I was writing is relevant. Your attempt to hijack the thread by obscuring the original point, or by attempting to stifle my opinion is what is off topic in this thread.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I don't do any other groups right now, I'm having too much fun hitting people with sticks.</font>
and in reply
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Or any other group than Mathew's that would be recognised as a reenactment group by the average member of the reenactment community. If that is all you have experienced, then I think you have a very limited view of the community.</font>
I add the emphasis in case the point is missed.
Have you ever participated in reenactment outside this small era? I ask this because you call yourself a reenactor, and claim to be experienced regarding same. I do not call myself an SCAdian.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You do understand that I'm in Matthew Amt's group? </font>
Yes, I know he has raised the XX. How often do you participate with him? I belonged as a paying member in good standing to the "White Company" in England for over a year, yet I never have taken the field with them. The reason I ask you this is that you seem to find the pursuit of authenticity in the SCA by others to be offensive, and since Matt's group is very anal about same, I would think you would not care for that level of dedication to a portrayal.
If you like to seperate the two entirely, that Reenactment is the place to pursue authenticity, but the SCA is not, then what you would do is deprive others of that pursuit. You are lucky to live within long driving distance of an authenticity inspired Roman reenactment group. Most people who would like to pursue authenticity within the society do not have that luxury - the SCA is the only group within reach for them. Would you discourage their attempts to strive for authenticity, if that is what they desire?
I am constantly amused by the people like yourself within the Society, that assume I despise it. I spend hours of my free time trying to help people within the Society reach their goals. At the same time, I hear from people in the reenactment community "why the hell do you bother with those people? They obviously don't care - you are wasting your efforts." I am damned if I do, and I am damned if I don't.
I would suggest that Richards thread has been more than derailed enough by your animosity to me. I would suggest that either we let this drop, or you can take it offline to me if you find it so offensive Owen.
------------------
Bob R.
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Richard Blackmoore
- Archive Member
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- Location: Bay Shore, NY USA
One of the things I like about the archive, is that people from different groups pool resources, ideas and knowledge. While this thread is specifically addressing SCA topics, Chef's ideas and thoughts were quite appropriate and useful. I think one of the strength's of the archive is it's ability to add perspective to a discussion that would perhaps be missing if only members of the a single group posted on it.
I am not a member of AEMMA for example. Does this mean I should never post any thoughts or suggestions on an AEMMA topic? I hope not. Otherwise why bother to have a multi group forum such as the archive?
Anyway, thank you all for the interesting comments to date. Keep up the good work!
I am not a member of AEMMA for example. Does this mean I should never post any thoughts or suggestions on an AEMMA topic? I hope not. Otherwise why bother to have a multi group forum such as the archive?
Anyway, thank you all for the interesting comments to date. Keep up the good work!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Owen:
<B>if I tried to use a scutum in single combat, I'd be hampered by it's size(it is intended for formation use), yet have people complain about how big it is!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Owen, how much of an SCAism do you think it would be for you to fight with a parma in tourney combat, and a big scutum in wars? I know it's not a legionary shield, but your persona would have certainly been familiar with it.
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/MTT01e.jpg
just a thought...
[This message has been edited by Brodir (edited 01-08-2002).]
<B>if I tried to use a scutum in single combat, I'd be hampered by it's size(it is intended for formation use), yet have people complain about how big it is!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Owen, how much of an SCAism do you think it would be for you to fight with a parma in tourney combat, and a big scutum in wars? I know it's not a legionary shield, but your persona would have certainly been familiar with it.
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/MTT01e.jpg
just a thought...
[This message has been edited by Brodir (edited 01-08-2002).]
A parma is on the list of things I'll get to eventually. On the other hand, I'm not too fond of shield work anyway, that's why I promoted myself to Imunes! Right now, I'm working on making a list-legal signum/polearm.
Chef- like my own, your presentation needs work. My impression of you is entirely from reading your posts.
Sir Richard- so, when we hauling out the No-Dachis?
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
Chef- like my own, your presentation needs work. My impression of you is entirely from reading your posts.
Sir Richard- so, when we hauling out the No-Dachis?
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
-
Murdock
- Something Different
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So the Midreal, An Tir and Ansteoria have authenticity awards.
COOL!
Why doesn't everybody?
As for hostility due to authenticity, I've gotten "Look at the dip$hit in all that plate" At gulfwars 7( i think). To "i hate fukkers like you in all that shiny crap, look like quiers" At a Gryphons Pleasure one year.
(sorry about the language)
It has been a while since someone said something like that, and usualy they appear to be some redneck jerk that happend to get in the SCA,
I also want to say that most people, espically mundanes, seem to think it rocks! My local group is by and large fairly authenticity minded. (cept the girls all seem to wanna be fantasy middle eastern about half the time) We do better than average.
Course i made, designed/ helped to make/ helped to select a lot of the armour here so if we look bad on the field, i'd feel like thats my fault.
I've also gotten nothing but compliments from the Meridian Chiv on my appearence. Even got a cool Roman Ring from Sir Ian, just for looking spiffy.
Sir Conal also helped the standard kingdom level of appearence with his rules suggestions and revisions.So things have improved greatly. So much so that when an OOK guy showed up wearing tennis shoes we were asked repeatedly why he was allowed to fight in them. He was OOK so he didn't know we are strick about the no Tennis shoes rules.
But hosility toward period appearence has happend and i'm sure it will happen again. It'll just bother me less.
COOL!
Why doesn't everybody?
As for hostility due to authenticity, I've gotten "Look at the dip$hit in all that plate" At gulfwars 7( i think). To "i hate fukkers like you in all that shiny crap, look like quiers" At a Gryphons Pleasure one year.
(sorry about the language)
It has been a while since someone said something like that, and usualy they appear to be some redneck jerk that happend to get in the SCA,
I also want to say that most people, espically mundanes, seem to think it rocks! My local group is by and large fairly authenticity minded. (cept the girls all seem to wanna be fantasy middle eastern about half the time) We do better than average.
Course i made, designed/ helped to make/ helped to select a lot of the armour here so if we look bad on the field, i'd feel like thats my fault.
I've also gotten nothing but compliments from the Meridian Chiv on my appearence. Even got a cool Roman Ring from Sir Ian, just for looking spiffy.
Sir Conal also helped the standard kingdom level of appearence with his rules suggestions and revisions.So things have improved greatly. So much so that when an OOK guy showed up wearing tennis shoes we were asked repeatedly why he was allowed to fight in them. He was OOK so he didn't know we are strick about the no Tennis shoes rules.
But hosility toward period appearence has happend and i'm sure it will happen again. It'll just bother me less.
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The Lost Scott
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I wish I could say to Murdock that I can't belive someone said that but it happens way to much, some people just don't get the armour thing. I think next time someone in mad max minimal armour says something like that or why do you wear so much armour I will challange then to a 5 to 10 minute fight no dieing perhaps counted blows (counted by an observer) followed by a bruise count afterards. I've got a feeling after the first couple of minutes of not stopping after a good blow the minimal sports fighter would be introuble because most do not train much past the first good hit or two (oh crap he didn't fall what do I do) not to mention the soreness and bruising to the unarmoured areas. I've had a few fighter practices where where I've had an oppent quit because of hits to the unarmoured upperbody (I wasn't in any way trying to hurt him either I just hit him where he was open). I think it would be an interesting fight atleast.
Oh teh I forgot some stuff murdoke is right most mundanes real like the nice harness with lots of shiny metal and so people holding demos.
And part of the challange is finding a way to fight with the different weapon styles for a persona with the period inspired weapons. Like for my early period (wayward crusader) I have sword (long and short)and sheild (mandrake quillions and brazillenut pommel and a kite sheild) plus I can use spear, mace single handed ax big knife, max and for pole weapons a dane ax or maul(I think) and a comdination of those that is just about everything. Later period add great sword and pole arms.
I'm going to post this as a new topic.
LS
[This message has been edited by The Lost Scott (edited 01-08-2002).]
Oh teh I forgot some stuff murdoke is right most mundanes real like the nice harness with lots of shiny metal and so people holding demos.
And part of the challange is finding a way to fight with the different weapon styles for a persona with the period inspired weapons. Like for my early period (wayward crusader) I have sword (long and short)and sheild (mandrake quillions and brazillenut pommel and a kite sheild) plus I can use spear, mace single handed ax big knife, max and for pole weapons a dane ax or maul(I think) and a comdination of those that is just about everything. Later period add great sword and pole arms.
I'm going to post this as a new topic.
LS
[This message has been edited by The Lost Scott (edited 01-08-2002).]
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Bernhart von Bruck
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Greetings!
Now don't take this the wrong way,
(Ah, where is that Generic Troll-Flame List?)
since I do attempt to improve my kit and make it more historically accurate, but The SCA is not not a reenactment group, bu a RECREATION group. There is no way around this point. There were no Kingdoms of the East or Trimaris or Lochac or whatever. There was no battle of Pennsic or Gulf War. If this was a reenactment group, the SCA would recreate the Battle of Hastings or Agincourt annually. The timeframe would be VERY restrictive, more than likely to a single decade.
This is not to say I agree with the katana-wielding Highlander-wannabee genericelts, but I think that Irish does have a point whenever he says that he is a KSCA, not an Irish chieftan.
------------------
"It was an age of dark beliefs and of practises that were no less dark; and witchcraft and sorcery were rampant throughout the land, among all classes." Clark Ashton Smith, "The Necromantic Tale"
Now don't take this the wrong way,
(Ah, where is that Generic Troll-Flame List?)
since I do attempt to improve my kit and make it more historically accurate, but The SCA is not not a reenactment group, bu a RECREATION group. There is no way around this point. There were no Kingdoms of the East or Trimaris or Lochac or whatever. There was no battle of Pennsic or Gulf War. If this was a reenactment group, the SCA would recreate the Battle of Hastings or Agincourt annually. The timeframe would be VERY restrictive, more than likely to a single decade.
This is not to say I agree with the katana-wielding Highlander-wannabee genericelts, but I think that Irish does have a point whenever he says that he is a KSCA, not an Irish chieftan.
------------------
"It was an age of dark beliefs and of practises that were no less dark; and witchcraft and sorcery were rampant throughout the land, among all classes." Clark Ashton Smith, "The Necromantic Tale"
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Aelric
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I have two different harnesses to encompass all my weapon preferences. I dont think I would ever think of fighting in a tourney in my 11th century harness with my 14th century heater. It just wouldnt match. I do look at this when I consider a candidate for Knighthood but in a broader sence. I think It should be obvious to any one who looks what persona a person is trying to do. I should at the very least be able to tell a general region of century.
Aelric
Aelric
Bob
"I know of several incidents of people being publicly booed for their efforts of authenticity (Estrella '96) (for you Mordreth)"
Not to doubt, or question your word in any way, but would you please provide some detail on this? What were their "efforts at authenticity" that led to hem being booed?
Rich
"I know of several incidents of people being publicly booed for their efforts of authenticity (Estrella '96) (for you Mordreth)"
Not to doubt, or question your word in any way, but would you please provide some detail on this? What were their "efforts at authenticity" that led to hem being booed?
Rich
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Bob H
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Murdock:
<B>
As for hostility due to authenticity, I've gotten "Look at the dip$hit in all that plate" At gulfwars 7( i think). To "i hate fukkers like you in all that shiny crap, look like quiers" At a Gryphons Pleasure one year.
(sorry about the language)
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah, you forgot "Pas Pussies". Later, same person that teased me about that told me "I've finally got you tourney company guys figured out - you're like really polite Tuchux with prettier armour".
<B>
As for hostility due to authenticity, I've gotten "Look at the dip$hit in all that plate" At gulfwars 7( i think). To "i hate fukkers like you in all that shiny crap, look like quiers" At a Gryphons Pleasure one year.
(sorry about the language)
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah, you forgot "Pas Pussies". Later, same person that teased me about that told me "I've finally got you tourney company guys figured out - you're like really polite Tuchux with prettier armour".
So.... as I was reading I thought I saw scrotum instead of scutum in "if I tried to use a scutum in single combat, I'd be hampered by it's size(it is intended for formation use), yet have people complain about how big it is!
Anyways... I personally see a lot of people that start fighting with XYZ weapon style, then choose a persona later. Sometimes years later. Then comes what I believe to be a hampering issue in AnTir. Once squire A has established him/herself as a good fighter in XYZ, then they seem to be encouraged to master it instead of branching out for a broader idea of weapons. This breeds generations of (in Antir at least) of high level fighters that are phenomonal in sword and board, but are merely adequate in other weapons styles.
anyways... my buck fifty of opinion
Fritz the peasant
Anyways... I personally see a lot of people that start fighting with XYZ weapon style, then choose a persona later. Sometimes years later. Then comes what I believe to be a hampering issue in AnTir. Once squire A has established him/herself as a good fighter in XYZ, then they seem to be encouraged to master it instead of branching out for a broader idea of weapons. This breeds generations of (in Antir at least) of high level fighters that are phenomonal in sword and board, but are merely adequate in other weapons styles.
anyways... my buck fifty of opinion
Fritz the peasant
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Richard Blackmoore
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Quote: "Ah, you forgot "Pas Pussies". Later, same person that teased me about that told me "I've finally got you tourney company guys figured out - you're like really polite Tuchux with prettier armour"."
Well, some people really are just rude, ignorant, morons. Most of the SCA would be happy to see nice armour and even with my poor attempts at decent armour, I have received many compliments and much encouragement over the years. In fact, the SCA has treated me very well in terms of encouraging me to improve. Yes, there are some twits that will laugh at a guy in plate for not being as competitive as he would be in lighter, less restrictive harness. So what. They are the exception to the rule. At least in the East and Middle, I believe the same to be true in Atlantia.
When I used to go to Pennsic every year, one of the main things we would do is check out all the cool armour and try to find ways to buy, build or barter in order to improve our personal harnesses.
Usually if someone is complaining about the tournament companies or passages of arms, it is because some of those participants come across as condescending and pompous, not all, some. I happen to like the pas' very much personally.
Anyway, it is not really part of this thread, but I wanted to take a moment to respond.
-Richard.
Well, some people really are just rude, ignorant, morons. Most of the SCA would be happy to see nice armour and even with my poor attempts at decent armour, I have received many compliments and much encouragement over the years. In fact, the SCA has treated me very well in terms of encouraging me to improve. Yes, there are some twits that will laugh at a guy in plate for not being as competitive as he would be in lighter, less restrictive harness. So what. They are the exception to the rule. At least in the East and Middle, I believe the same to be true in Atlantia.
When I used to go to Pennsic every year, one of the main things we would do is check out all the cool armour and try to find ways to buy, build or barter in order to improve our personal harnesses.
Usually if someone is complaining about the tournament companies or passages of arms, it is because some of those participants come across as condescending and pompous, not all, some. I happen to like the pas' very much personally.
Anyway, it is not really part of this thread, but I wanted to take a moment to respond.
-Richard.
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chef de chambre
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Murdock
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""I've finally got you tourney company guys figured out - you're like really polite Tuchux with prettier armour
And we smell better than the chux too.
Like i said it's been a while since i got significant crap, maybe it's because many of the chiv here are appearence minded. We still have nekked Celts but at least the know what tirbe they're in.
In all honesty i think stuff like Sir Ian and Sir Conal do, with personal awards and recognition mean more. I know it does to me. To me it means that someone else appreciates what i do, that in some way i made them feel good, they think i made the time they had a little better. Thing that come from their personal recognition are greatly appreciated.
And we smell better than the chux too.
Like i said it's been a while since i got significant crap, maybe it's because many of the chiv here are appearence minded. We still have nekked Celts but at least the know what tirbe they're in.
In all honesty i think stuff like Sir Ian and Sir Conal do, with personal awards and recognition mean more. I know it does to me. To me it means that someone else appreciates what i do, that in some way i made them feel good, they think i made the time they had a little better. Thing that come from their personal recognition are greatly appreciated.
Aelric wrote;
<<< I dont think I would ever think of fighting in a tourney in my 11th century harness with my 14th century heater. It just wouldnt match. I do look at this when I consider a candidate for Knighthood but in a broader sence. >>>
This is one of the faults with chivalry (IMHO). Most of them make conclusions without finding out any facts –no offence Aelric. I happen to mix and match armor and weapons all the time, why? Well I have a great explanation for it that you and others might not agree with.
My secondary persona (which I am thinking on making my primary persona from now on) is a 16th century French lord (well actually a relative of the family mansion since I don’t have an AoA) who resides in a Norman castle with a large collection of arms/armory collected through the years. My persona is a history buff in regards to arm/armory and he likes to study the different fighting styles throughout the years (up to the 16th century). Now I don’t drag 20 weapon/armor styles with me to an event, but I do use my persona to explain how and why I can just grab any weapon and use it. It also explains why I like to experiment with mixing different weapons and armors together sometimes as a “what ifâ€
<<< I dont think I would ever think of fighting in a tourney in my 11th century harness with my 14th century heater. It just wouldnt match. I do look at this when I consider a candidate for Knighthood but in a broader sence. >>>
This is one of the faults with chivalry (IMHO). Most of them make conclusions without finding out any facts –no offence Aelric. I happen to mix and match armor and weapons all the time, why? Well I have a great explanation for it that you and others might not agree with.
My secondary persona (which I am thinking on making my primary persona from now on) is a 16th century French lord (well actually a relative of the family mansion since I don’t have an AoA) who resides in a Norman castle with a large collection of arms/armory collected through the years. My persona is a history buff in regards to arm/armory and he likes to study the different fighting styles throughout the years (up to the 16th century). Now I don’t drag 20 weapon/armor styles with me to an event, but I do use my persona to explain how and why I can just grab any weapon and use it. It also explains why I like to experiment with mixing different weapons and armors together sometimes as a “what ifâ€
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Murdock
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". I currently wear chainmail, but it is rather heavy –especially after a few hours. "
Ya know depending on the length of your mail some plate may be lighter.
"Now I prefer wearing very little armor so that I can actually move around,"
How many times have we heard this line.
Would you wear your rig if you were facing real rebeats much less sharps? If your wearing mail then your probably armoured in a noble fashion, but i heard a little sport mentality creeping up on ya. It's hard to resist.
I'm looking at going to lighter period alternatives to my current stuff. Gamboised cuiesses, spring steel ectect. But it make me feel like a cheater.
"Beware the dark path, quicker, easier, more seductive"
Ya know depending on the length of your mail some plate may be lighter.
"Now I prefer wearing very little armor so that I can actually move around,"
How many times have we heard this line.
Would you wear your rig if you were facing real rebeats much less sharps? If your wearing mail then your probably armoured in a noble fashion, but i heard a little sport mentality creeping up on ya. It's hard to resist.
I'm looking at going to lighter period alternatives to my current stuff. Gamboised cuiesses, spring steel ectect. But it make me feel like a cheater.
"Beware the dark path, quicker, easier, more seductive"
I do think that one should certainly make an effort to more than "familiar" with the weapons appropriate to your persona. I'm from the mid 14th Century so I tend to fight mostly with 6' poll arms, sword & shield, and spear. However, as a knight I feel that I have a duty to be able to teach all weapons styles to new fighters. In order to maintain that ability I try to practice with lots of other styles. I've even fought with (gulp) madu's and center-grip-peanut-shape-celtic-looking-shield-sorta-objects.
Now that all that responsibility rationalization is done, I just really like playing with the wierd stuff now and again.
Stuart
Now that all that responsibility rationalization is done, I just really like playing with the wierd stuff now and again.
Stuart
Stuart
<<<< However, as a knight I feel that I have a duty to be able to teach all weapons styles to new fighters. In order to maintain that ability I try to practice with lots of other styles. I've even fought with (gulp) madu's and center-grip-peanut-shape-celtic-looking-shield-sorta-objects. >>>>
I salute you Sir!
(^_^)
<<<< However, as a knight I feel that I have a duty to be able to teach all weapons styles to new fighters. In order to maintain that ability I try to practice with lots of other styles. I've even fought with (gulp) madu's and center-grip-peanut-shape-celtic-looking-shield-sorta-objects. >>>>
I salute you Sir!
(^_^)
Murdock:
<<< Ya know depending on the length of your mail some plate may be lighter. >>>
I realize that, but plate doesn’t move with me as I fight –even fitted plate. I blew my right elbow out once because my platemail arm harness didn’t follow my arm quick enough and my arm jammed. The reason for this is that I am very skinny and fatfree (3% body fat). The armor just doesn’t have anything to hold onto so it kinda slides around following centrifugal force and/or gravity. I wear the chainmail because it moves with me. I am planning on making some scale armor to lessen the load, but I will still have leg and arm problems.
<<< Would you wear your rig if you were facing real rebeats much less sharps? >>>
This is a two edged sword (Lol) In the real middle ages I would wear the minimum armor I could that protected my assets. The problem is that bladed weapons hit different then rattan. I would just wear leather armor against bladed weapons, but I might as well be butt naked in the SCA because not even the thickest leathers protect my scrawny frame.
<<< "Beware the dark path, quicker, easier, more seductive" >>>
Good one.
(^_^)
<<< Ya know depending on the length of your mail some plate may be lighter. >>>
I realize that, but plate doesn’t move with me as I fight –even fitted plate. I blew my right elbow out once because my platemail arm harness didn’t follow my arm quick enough and my arm jammed. The reason for this is that I am very skinny and fatfree (3% body fat). The armor just doesn’t have anything to hold onto so it kinda slides around following centrifugal force and/or gravity. I wear the chainmail because it moves with me. I am planning on making some scale armor to lessen the load, but I will still have leg and arm problems.
<<< Would you wear your rig if you were facing real rebeats much less sharps? >>>
This is a two edged sword (Lol) In the real middle ages I would wear the minimum armor I could that protected my assets. The problem is that bladed weapons hit different then rattan. I would just wear leather armor against bladed weapons, but I might as well be butt naked in the SCA because not even the thickest leathers protect my scrawny frame.
<<< "Beware the dark path, quicker, easier, more seductive" >>>
Good one.
(^_^)
Wow, I used to be a skinny little guy myself, but I never had that problem.
I'd look to the construction and fit of the armor for the problem, not the armor itself.
Believe me, it can be made to fit, fit well, and not hamper you in any way.
If it wasn't made FOR YOU, it probably didn't fit all that great.
One size does NOT fit all.
An OK fit and a perfect fit are worlds apart in comfort and performance.
VvS
I'd look to the construction and fit of the armor for the problem, not the armor itself.
Believe me, it can be made to fit, fit well, and not hamper you in any way.
If it wasn't made FOR YOU, it probably didn't fit all that great.
One size does NOT fit all.
An OK fit and a perfect fit are worlds apart in comfort and performance.
VvS
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Murdock
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"I fight –even fitted plate. I blew my right elbow out once because my platemail arm harness didn’t follow my arm quick enough and my arm jammed. The reason for this is that I am very skinny and fatfree (3% body fat). The armor just doesn’t have anything to hold onto so it kinda slides around following centrifugal force and/or"
I had the same problem and i'm not skinny.
Some ScA armour is set up weird, it slides around becasue its not strapped and attached like period armour, not rigged up with slot rivits and spring catches. Try getting an arming coat poit the plates to the coat, the staps more or less just get things to closed. It's very flexable, basically feels like a thick jacket or sweat shirt.
Course if your persoan should be in mail then stay in mail.
I had the same problem and i'm not skinny.
Some ScA armour is set up weird, it slides around becasue its not strapped and attached like period armour, not rigged up with slot rivits and spring catches. Try getting an arming coat poit the plates to the coat, the staps more or less just get things to closed. It's very flexable, basically feels like a thick jacket or sweat shirt.
Course if your persoan should be in mail then stay in mail.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Richard Blackmoore:
<B>Quote: "Gratuitous nitpick here, the 12th c. falchion looks fairly similiar to a 15th c one, and I know for certain that Swiss knights used them occasionally. I don't think anyone could tell the difference in the SCA combat versions."
Actually, I posted that one for that very reason on purpose. One of the things many SCA'ers do is point out such logical inconsistancies. Some people wear a dress sword (real metal) that mimics the weapon they claim to fight with in the rattan lists. So when someone from one period claims to fight with a weapon that is either hundreds of years in the future compared to his personna (or hundreds of years behind) and then backs it up by wearing the steel version, I can't help but be amused and not in a good way. Especially the celts with very late period Japanese weaponry. Especially when they know they are doing it and don't care, they make it clear that they are doing it on purpose and not through a lack of knowledge.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
bastard sword.......bastard sword.......bastard sword......bastard sword.......
(Remember, it's not just a name, it's a way of life!)
<B>Quote: "Gratuitous nitpick here, the 12th c. falchion looks fairly similiar to a 15th c one, and I know for certain that Swiss knights used them occasionally. I don't think anyone could tell the difference in the SCA combat versions."
Actually, I posted that one for that very reason on purpose. One of the things many SCA'ers do is point out such logical inconsistancies. Some people wear a dress sword (real metal) that mimics the weapon they claim to fight with in the rattan lists. So when someone from one period claims to fight with a weapon that is either hundreds of years in the future compared to his personna (or hundreds of years behind) and then backs it up by wearing the steel version, I can't help but be amused and not in a good way. Especially the celts with very late period Japanese weaponry. Especially when they know they are doing it and don't care, they make it clear that they are doing it on purpose and not through a lack of knowledge.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
bastard sword.......bastard sword.......bastard sword......bastard sword.......
(Remember, it's not just a name, it's a way of life!)