"Bite Me, Middies!

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 5:38 pm

There is the famous shield in the background.

http://208.49.149.148/disciplined%20primates/crown%20tourney%20large/EnGuarde.JPG

[This message has been edited by Vitus (edited 01-20-2002).]

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 6:43 pm

A Closer view:
[img]http://members2.easyspace.com/revgeorge/pics/biteme.jpg[/img]

you know, that shield decoration reminds me of the comic charchter "LOBO" either that or some sort of cliche' vampire jester... Good to see the east kingdom has good drugs, if terribly unchivalrous fighters...

-+G

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 8:17 pm

The East is filled with warriors of great valor and nobility. This shield just isn't funny.
Sir Balin rules.
-V

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 11:55 pm

Um, Pat, I'd like to buy a clue please. I don't get it ( and the picture is kind of grainy) what's this of?

olaf haraldson · Post by **olaf haraldson** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 11:58 pm

The man holding the shield is Master Feral Von Halstern. He is a great and chivalrous fighter... and also in my master's lineage in the SCA. I definitely can see the shield as out of place or out of line... but I take exeption to the allusion of Feral as unchivalrous.

Yes... it is Lobo on the shield.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 2:13 am

the picture appears to be a picture of LOBO
[img]http://www.all-about-comics.com/lobo1.gif[/img]

with bloody looking letters above it, in the hair, saying "BITE ME" and below on Lobo'sNeck saying "MIDDIES"

Let me say, I dont know this chap at all, only from the picture. Based upon that I might question his chivalry. It's terribly lacking in the courtesy portion of chivalry. If you saw a picture of me with a shield that said " I'm gonna rape your mother" or "I only call blows from peers" wouldnt you question MY chivalry?

-+G

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 9:17 am

Shoulnd't it say "Light, light, light, excessive!"

Chretien le Meunier · Post by **Chretien le Meunier** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 9:56 am

WHAT THE FRAG?!!!

Eh. I don't see anything wrong, save for the fact it is'nt heraldicly correct, and could get some huge lawsuit from DC comics?

LEAVE 'EM BE, FANBOYS!!!! HE KNOWS WHEN TO DISPLAY THE MAN!!!

(Lobo fans will know)

------------------
The Way is in us all. Only the humble are capable of obtaining it.
Tristan Graethorne/Kumanouchi no Daijiro Tsunemichi-
Shire of Owls Reste, Southern Region,
Great Kingdom of the East

olaf haraldson · Post by **olaf haraldson** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 11:22 am

I think there's a far cry between "bite me"
and "I'm going to rape your mother"... bite me is smack talk, the other would get someone smacked for real. I really don't know how the comparison can be drawn. What the shield says to me is "come get me..." Him holding that shield gave me plenty of targets in the field... I was a couple shields down from him, and plenty of people did come for him... wich was partly his intent.

I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong Rev... You just don't know the man. I do. He's nearly a legend in my part of the Knowne World.

------------------
Anybody else want to negotiate?

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 11:38 am

Legend or not.... its inappropriate at least and just plain rude and flys in the face of everythng we claim we stand for.

My wife, HRH, was sitting under the shade in the background next to HRM Lucan and saw the shield. She told me that even though we are no longer part of the Middle Kingdom she thought that that kind of display was rude and unchivalrous...especially at a Crown Tourney.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 11:50 am

Look,

I'm not a SCAdian, but I do know what chivalry is. "Smack talk" is in no way chivalrous, it would be seen as the behaviour of a boorish peasant historically.

If the fellow is a chivalrous as you claim, then you should appeal to that chivalry to stop him from behaviour that is disgracing chivalry.

A chivalrous man steps forth proudly under his own coat armour, under the banner of his lord, and engages the enemy with valour. He does not display a 'virtual' moon at the enemy. A man is measured as much by the worth of his enemies as his friends.

------------------
Bob R.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 1:11 pm

I may not always agree with Chef, but I sure do now.

Stacy Elliott · Post by **Stacy Elliott** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 1:23 pm

All,

While I normally agree with Chef, just not his delivery, I have to say he got both right this time.

If this shield was to get the attention of his foes on a battle field, then why is it at Crown Tourney? My opinion is he has not stepped back and taken a audit of his current attempt. Take if for what it is worth.

If that was the only shield I had I would cover it with a cloth cover that takes one hour to make, or I would fight a different fighting style.

Giles

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 1:25 pm

Disrespect for one's opponent is unchilvarious. Chef and Sarnac are correct.

Arti

Deacon · Post by **Deacon** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 1:42 pm

At my certification, the marshall told me:

"Bow to your most noble and worthy opponent."

I thought that was the ideal. If it is, then this guy no matter how famous/wonderful/popular/whatever - is in the wrong. Period.

Deacon

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 5:08 pm

The minute I saw that picture, I was virtually certain it was Feral. If it was my Crown Tournament, I would not have permitted him to fight with it.

I happen to like the guy, but we have divergent opinions and major disagreements as to what constitutes chivalric behavior.

Feral comes from the Northern Region of the East Kingdom and is a master rather than a knight. If you want me to try to explain the stereotypes that come from the Northern Region Master vs. Southern Region Knight mentality, I would spend hundreds of pages going over the often real, often imaginary differences as well as the propaganda. There are Northern Masters who are better knights than many Southern Region Knights will ever be.

That being said, one sterotype of Northern Region masters includes that they represent pre-chivalric period warriors, warlords, chieftans etc. who answer only to themselves and therefore generally do not swear fealty and that their concept of what constitutes chivalric behavior is very different that what many knights think it should be. This Northern Master stereotype includes an emphasis on winning as being more important than anything else, especially in melee, and training in unit/infantry tactics as being much more important than individual prowess. A lack of respect for traditional knightly virtues.

Once again, this is a stereotype and is often untrue.

If you go by the SCA premise of emulating the best ideals of Western European Chivalry in the period sense, Feral's shield certainly falls outside the bounds of proper behavior. Especially given his place of prominence in East Kingdom history as a Northern Regional Army supporter and organizer and his place in the SCA Order of Chivalry.

If you go by the rather loose SCA interpretation of what we do as a fun game where we should not take certain parts of it too seriously, it may be acceptable. Farel certainly falls into this category and I am sure he meant it as a funny joke to be enjoyed by all.

I am not justifying his behaviour. I also thought the Pic was from Pennsic rather than crown tourney. You should hear the abuse the middle places on Feral verbally at Pennsic, much of it in good humour, much of it from people who hate him and think he is sleazy, sneaky and unchivalrous. I assumed he was simply responding to a jibe from the middle in what he thought was a funny way. While I still think the shield was in very poor taste and I would never have worn it, I thought it was in the context of Pennsic where many practical jokes are played and people poke fun at each other in many ways.

From a period context though, I seem to recall a number of shields that had devices or actual mottoes on them that disparaged their enemies, so he may have period justification for his right to wear it. But "Bite me middies" hardly qualifies as a likely medieval motto.

I basically think that if the shield was used in crown or in a public forum with the intent of being rude to other members of the chivalry, that the Order should alert Farel of their displeasure and ask him to cease and desist.

As far as the unbelted members who are not peers of the realm, you are beneath Farel's station and your opinion does not matter

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 8:55 pm

It has been brought to my attention in no less than three separate E-mails, that the joke at the end of my last post was not necessarily being recognized as a joke.

To clarify, I don't think Farel should use that shield as it is needlessly offensive to those whom have offered no offense to Farel. I intend to contact him and let him know my feelings on the matter. And yes I think that in the SCA, when something offensive is being done, pretty much anybody has the right to address it.

-Richard.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 9:03 pm

Hi Richard,

I took it as the joke it was. I am not without humour after all. Without pity perhaps, but never without humour.....

------------------
Bob R.

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 9:40 pm

Hmmmmmmm I shall have to be more careful editing my pictures in the future.

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 10:01 pm

For those of you who think the Chivalry do not care or police their own, I have sent the following out today to the known world SCA Chivalry E-mail group which Feral is part of. I hope some good will result.

Dear brothers: I posted this on the armourarchive in response to many postings on the archive regarding this topic. I also posted that I would forward it the SCA chivalry board so that the Chivalry will have been made aware of this particular topic and its effects on others.

Many unbelts feel that the chivalry can do whatever it wants and no one will hold them accountable. Other unbelts feel that if the chivalry does it, it must be OK.

Photo's and discussions of this shield have popped up in a number of places now, including at least one well known public forum that many unbelted SCA fighters use (www.armourarchive.org) and which members of other groups (Adria, HACA, AEMMA, MSR, Wolfe Argent, etc.) frequent as well.

Knowing Feral, I think this may just be a bad and inappropriate joke. One that he did not realize would both hurt people's feelings, antagonize many and come across as extremely unchivalrous and unworthy of a knight of the realm.

I realize that Feral is a master rather than a knight, yet I am constantly told by other masters (good men all) that except for not having to swear fealty, masters are to generally adhere to the same Western European Knightly ideals that the Order Of Chivalry was intended to represent. Masters are to be treated with the same respect and dignity that a knight deserves. Masters are also to demonstrate the same level of knightly behavior in regards to their treatment of others.

I think that it is obvious that the joke shield has already caused harm to both the reputation of the SCA Order of Chivalry and that of the East Kingdom. It is just one more thing to give many unbelts as well as potential SCA members who are currently in other groups, that at best the SCA Order of Chivalry is a bit of a joke and that at worst we are a bunch of ill mannered egocentric idiots who treat others with utter contempt.

For instance, Prince Sarnac of Ealdomere (sp?) and his princess were apparently in attendance at the crown tourney Feral bore the shield in. It did not go over well with the princess and she apparently mentioned it to his majesty Lucan (East).

Another unbelt quote: "...you know, that shield decoration reminds me of the comic charchter "LOBO" either that or some sort of cliche' vampire jester... Good to see the east kingdom has good drugs, if terribly unchivalrous fighters..."

Ouch. Later on people post that LOBO is exactly where this was derived from. Great. Now the heralds are passing comic characters as heraldic devices. Either that or Feral feels unconstrained by the generally self imposed good taste guidelines for what should appear on his shield.

I doubt that any of this was Feral's intention. We may disagree on many things, but he has worked very hard in the East in service to the crown and kingdom.

Just to give you an idea of the kind of crap (limited) that has been posted IN SUPPORT of Feral's shield, take a look at this post from the armourarchive by an Eastern SCA member who now thinks this kind of behavior is OK. You know, the old "The chivalry does it, so that must be the right thing to do" problem:

Quote from Olaf MacBrome: "I think there's a far cry between "bite me"
and "I'm going to rape your mother"... bite me is smack talk, the other would get someone smacked for real. I really don't know how the comparison can be drawn. What the shield says to me is "come get me..." Him holding that shield gave me plenty of targets in the field... I was a couple shields down from him, and plenty of people did come for him... wich was partly his intent.
I'm not saying that your opinion is wrong Rev... You just don't know the man. I do. He's nearly a legend in my part of the Knowne World."

I don't know about the rest of the order, but I generally think that what we want to be teaching students is how to be good knights and how to become role models. I don't remember "Trash Talk 101" in the course curriculum. I certainly don't want the trash talk to be taught and promoted by the local "legends".

I would hope that Master Feral would, after realizing the hopefully unintended consequences of using that shield, find it appropriate to stop using the shield immediately and to offer a public apology to the Middle Kingdom for the unintended offense.

In service,

Richard Blackmoore
East Kingdom, Southern Region Knight

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 10:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard Blackmoore:
I don't know about the rest of the order, but I generally think that what we want to be teaching students is how to be good knights and how to become role models. I don't remember "Trash Talk 101" in the course curriculum. I certainly don't want the trash talk to be taught and promoted by the local "legends".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great post Richard. I am just having so many Jr. High School flashbacks with this.

The "I'm not a Knight" excuse just doesn't cut it with me. It is also insulting to those who hold the title Master or Mistress, whether they be Pelicans, Laurels or MoAs. He's still a Peer. Chivalry and Courtesy are part of holding that patent.

Juliana

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 10:44 pm

Kids are in bed, work is taken care of, and I signed onto the board to discover that Richard Blackmore has said anything and everything I had planned on writing when I came back to the board
Didn't know Feral had anything against the Annapolis corp of cadets

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 12:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mordreth:
Didn't know Feral had anything against the Annapolis corp of cadets<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a veteran of the US Army, I can say "GO NAVY!"

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 7:07 am

He could at least have translated it into Latin.

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 8:11 am

"Chupa Me!", pronounced 'chew-pah may. Use it in conversation today!

- Kyle

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 10:41 am

Thanks you, Richard. I hope to meet you some day, if only to shake your hand. Well said.

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 11:14 am

Richard,
Thank you for sticking your neck out. It is a courageous man who knowingly sticks his hand into the fire of honesty, even though he knows that he will get burned.

I hope that your fellow Chiv do not berate you for this noble act.

Just to clear up a point. My wife, HRH, was in attendance...I was not.

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 1:03 pm

I only started this thread to support comments made in an earlier one. I am not trying to stir up BS, I am just trying to prove that the shield existed.
I am sure that Master Feral is just trying to be mischevious and witty, but the effect on those who saw it- it was just a bummer. Sometimes I think that quite a bit of latent hatred is sleeping out there- in every Kingdom. If showing contempt for the other side is required to win, I don't want to win.
I remember when a Meridian guy had a great big middle finger painted on his pavice during the Midrealm/Meridies Border Raids. I was nineteen years old at the time (and a jackass), so I just thought it was funny. All of the older fighters were really confused and bummed out.
The Meridian guy, when questioned, said
"..but I'm a Barbarian". Hahahahah
This all comes back to the point I was trying to make at Brian's last Pennsic Round Table. It's all about language. We can't afford to be frivolous with our speech. Inspirational and beautiful language creates a noble atmosphere, no matter what the outcome of a battle.
"Bite me", doesn't cut it. Just my opinion.
-V

[This message has been edited by Vitus (edited 01-22-2002).]

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 1:20 pm

"Feral"? Is that documentable?

Stacy Elliott · Post by **Stacy Elliott** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 2:45 pm

Hushgirl,

On the SCA Armorial:
Ferall von Halstern
This name was registered in October of 1985 (via the East).
The following device associated with this name was registered in March of 1986 (via the East):
Sable, a bearded pithon erect guardant, wings displayed, within a bordure embattled argent.

Why would it not be documentable? Many words are also found in names... Besides it is a different spelling.

Feral \Fe"ral\, a. [L. ferus. See Fierce.] (Bot. & Zo["o]l.) Wild; untamed; ferine; not domesticated; -- said of beasts, birds, and plants.

Giles

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 3:52 pm

It's just that so many people make up names, which was probably done in period, that I always ask if I run across one that's unusual. Can he actually trace it to a use in period, I wonder, or did he cook it up himself? Was there a Saint Ferall or a hero named Ferall in a saga or ode? Could it also come from ferrous?

Stacy Elliott · Post by **Stacy Elliott** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 4:41 pm

From the book: Monarchs, Rulers, Dynasties and Kingdoms of the World (London: Thames & Hudson, Ltd., 1983; distributed by Facts on File Publications, New York), p. 13, Ireland [hereinafter "Monarchs"].

Found in

Maelduin's son, Fearghal became the 156th Monarch of all Ireland. His name is also noted as "Fergus," "Fargal," and "Fergal mac Maeleduin." He assumed power of Ireland in the year 709 A.D. Another source (O'Flaherty) places his accession at 711. [Annals, Age of Christ, 709 (pages 308-19).] He was killed in the battle of Almhain (also known as Allen) in the year 718, according to the Annals. In addition, the footnote in the Annals, Age of Christ, 718 (page 316) notes:

"This battle is noticed in the Annals of Ulster at the year 721, and in the Annals of Tighernach at 722, which is the true year, as indicated by the criteria which he furnishes, iii. Id. Dec. fer. 6, Cylo Solis iii. Luna i. The Annals of Clonmacnoise notice it under the year 720, as follows: 'A.D. 717 Before King Fohartagh began his reign, the battle of Allone was fought, wherein King Ferall was slain by the Lynstermen, on Friday the 3rd of the Ides of December, in the year of our Lord, 720. ...'"

So I guess the answer is yes.

Giles

Prince Of Darkmoor · Post by **Prince Of Darkmoor** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 4:45 pm

Christ, that's a big shield!!! Is this what's called a "war door?"

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 4:52 pm

<<< Is this what's called a "war door?" >>>

Not really -they get MUCH bigger!

(^_^)

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 5:02 pm

No Clay that is a fairly standard sized Nrthern Region kite shield. These are considered tourney shields up here, which is why my little round gets such odd looks. Also Master Feral is not the tallest man in the East.