Standardizing the rules

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 12:31 am

Does anyone have any info on how this is going?

What they are doing?

What things may be eliminated or changed?

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 8:32 am

Ummmm, huh? Can you give us some context for your question?

- Kyle

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 12:09 pm

There is supposed to be a work group being formed to help standardize rules betweeen kingdoms.

I'd like to know as well, I submited to my kingdom Earl Marshal to be our representative, but never heard who we picked, oh well.

Asbjorn

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 12:16 pm

The Society Earl Marshal is currently working to ty to standardize calibration and registration through-out the SCA. I beleive each Kingdom has Marshals who are working within their Kingdom to try to see how feasable this plan is, and how their Kingdom would need to change (up or down).

I believe this has come about due to the growing seperation in calbiration and registration between the various Kingdoms, which becomes VERY evident at the big inter-Kingdom events like Estrella, gulf Wars and Pennsic - especially Pennsic.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Feb 01, 2002 5:20 pm

How do they prepose to stadardize force levels?

They very not only between kingdoms but within kingdoms.

Heck i wish i'd known anyone could be a representative, i'd have voluntered.

bela of kaffa · Post by **bela of kaffa** » Sun Feb 03, 2002 12:47 pm

yeah, i'd volunteer, but i have the sneaking suspicion i'd become the standardized interkingdom pell... for testing purposes only, of course...
bela

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Murdock:

Heck i wish i'd known anyone could be a representative, i'd have voluntered.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 11:49 pm

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 12:36 am

Damn, I can't find my link or email to the bowling ball on a post calibration method.

Conal · Post by **Conal** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:23 am

The SEM has appointed a Deputy to serve as the Commmittee Chairman. That gentleman would be Earl Robert Glendon of Auk. Robert currently has reps from approx. half the kingdoms, and is beating the bushes for the rest.

It is my understanding that the committee will start small, and work their way up to larger issues. They will not make rule changes, but will make recommendations to the SEM. It will not be a quick process.

Robert has it in mind that you should be able to forward your suggestions to your kingdom rep. I'm not suggesting any action here, but I will point out that Robert's email address is on the SEM's web page:

http://members.socket.net/~ksca/directory/society.html

That's all I know.

(You're welcome, Robert. Heh-heh-heh...)

Regards,

Conal

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 12:34 pm

I think we need a real standard of force, something measurable to use as a general guideline. It would make bringing the out of control areas back into alignment. It would also be great to use this as part of an authorization. Say if your shot won't move a 16lb bowling ball on a shoulder height pole at least 4 1/2 to 6', you probably are not hitting with enough force/speed/poor technique or you may be using a whipstick. I agree this may be too light of a calibration for some people, but it might be light enough that the armourless kingdoms can live with it and heavy enough that others can come down to it.

If we did this as part of an authorization, we would probably fix a lot of the newbies that whine about people not taking their blows or that hit with excessive force and unwittingly piss people off. I know it would only be a guideline and that in combat things are tougher to gauge, but it might not be a bad idea.

The only problem with this standard is that force alone is not the sole determinant of damage caused, but it might be a starting point for discussion.

Also, a huge number of people will probably be pissed off if the Society starts requiring them to throw blows with at least minimally decent force. A lot of areas currently do "armoured fencing" or don't wear much armour. They may not want to have to bring their standards up to something appropriate for armoured combat and some areas may not want to stop playing at very high levels. But it is worth a try.

Anyone have any alternate suggestions for a better test?

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 12:45 pm

The most important thing is to do away with the "killing" blow concept and switch to a telling blow concept.
-V

Chadwick · Post by **Chadwick** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 2:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard Blackmoore:
Say if your shot won't move a 16lb bowling ball on a shoulder height pole at least 4 1/2 to 6', you probably are not hitting with enough force/speed/poor technique or you may be using a whipstick. I agree this may be too light of a calibration for some people, but it might be light enough that the armourless kingdoms can live with it and heavy enough that others can come down to it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to the data presented by Sir Pieter van Doorn, the average flight distance for a 16 lb bowling ball at a height of 58" was only 32". Your call for 4.5 to 6' (52" to 72") is roughly double the measured SCA-wide average.

I have the tabular results of Sir Pieter's analysis online here.

-Keith/Austin.

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 4:00 pm

Um, I don't remember referencing good Sir Peter's study or any averages.

I also pointed out that a lot of the SCA hits lightly and does not wear much armour.

Quite frankly, a number of people knocked the ball farther than I did. I think my light swords were typically 3 1/2' to 4', heavier swords went about 5'. Then again, I am from the East where calibration tends to be higher, like Atlantia. I remember being shocked at how far a great sword could knock one of those suckers!

I don't mind hitting lighter, as long as it does not turn into fencing and encourage people to fight unarmoured.

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 4:25 pm

Apparently I am an idiot. When we played with this, the ball we used was not the 16 pounder I recalled, the ball we used was lighter, but I do not remember what is was for sure.

I must have been thinking of the ball from Sir Peter's test (I seem to remember him doing this at Pennsic years ago, is this the same test?).

Anyway, perhaps if we used Sir Peter's test results and determined an agreed upon general good shot range, this might be a useful guideline or perhaps test with a lighter ball as we did.

I think a lighter ball is generally a better indicator, as it is much easier to have a larger spread of distances with a light ball, so differences in actual power are more easily determined. Similar to measuring something in inches instead of in yards, a more precise instrument so to speak.

Sorry for my error!

-Richard

Khann · Post by **Khann** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 4:32 pm

The average blow should be harder. This would stop the dreaded whip stick and light Armour. It would also minimize the whining about blow calibration.

Khann

Chadwick · Post by **Chadwick** » Thu Feb 07, 2002 10:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Richard Blackmoore:
I must have been thinking of the ball from Sir Peter's test (I seem to remember him doing this at Pennsic years ago, is this the same test?).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes this is the same test. Sir Pieter aquired a significant amount of data from his Pennsic studies. He used an eight (8) pound bowling ball for these studies, so an observed flight distance of 60" (5 feet) would be close to the average blow calibration. Sir Pieter also captured data from other major SCA events, so the data does include data from kingdoms other than the East and Middle kingdoms.

In my discussions with Sir Pieter, he stated that the observed variations in blow standards from group to group within a kingdom were significantly greater than the variations in blow standards between kingdoms. So the statement that the "East hits harder than XXX" does not appear to hold water based on the blow calibration data.

The statement that "certain groups in the East hit harder than other groups in the Midrealm" is true.

However, the statement that "certain groups in the Midrealm hit harder than other groups in the East" is also true.

I have personally observed significantly different blow standards between groups only three hours apart in the same region of the Midrealm.

-Keith/Austin.