Combat in Historical Re-enactment Groups

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:30 pm

Is there any one here who belongs to a historical re-enactment group? Not a recreation group such as the SCA, but a living history group. If so do you do combat? What do you use and how much of it is staged and how much of it is free style? I am really interested in how the various groups view re-enactment combat and what they do with it. I am talking about groups such as Col. Walter Butler's Dragoons, Musketeer Battle Club, etc.

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

randy · Post by **randy** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:52 am

I am now a member of the sca because i couldnt handel the amount of bs involved in faires, and yes it is better here. In the faires i was the armour stewart, basicaly the authorizing martial. We had severak levels of fighting for staged to real from shanai to dull steel. The events that happened on any given day depended on the poaple that showed up to work that day ( and work we did) and the type of insurance and permission the sight granted us. When i worked Modesto ren faire last , 5 years ago , they had real jousting, sword fighting, stick fighting and shanai fighting all in seperate venues, hosted by different groups. my orginization got kicked out of that one for a completely unrelated injury and insuing lawsute. Any one here remember the helecopter? I got to help the damn thing land, clearing a spot and getting the idiots on the ground to stop gawking and at least get the hell out the way. ( hay and helicopters dont mix.)

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:56 am

Hi Winterfell,

In general, there are two forms of combat practised in LH & reenactment groups - neither of which would meet Sir Rhys's approval

WoR federation and most English reenactment rules use 'blunts' and restrict targets, and in general they have a reasonable success at making a battle look like a reasonable approximation of one - but it is in now way full contact competative combat such as the SCA practises. People pull blows, but there is the occasional broken bone or lost tooth.

The second form is a 'choreographed fight' At it's best, this is in essence a practise kata of historic technique, at it's worst a Hollywoodesque sword on sword bash.

My regular practise partner and myself the Summer before last had worked out an excellent blossfechten kata with steel. We were so practised with it (literaly hundreds upon hundreds of repetitions) that we could do it at full speed and make it look like a fight in earnest. We used unsharpened sharps, and we were so practised that I would have had no qualms about doing the kata with sharp weapons at full speed. The worst either of us ever experienced was once I had my knuckles skinned, and twice he had a pommel to the chin (but pulled).

Please understand we did this in authentic reconstructions of 15th century doublet & hosen, from the braeis out, in turnshoes (on grass) to our caps on opur head. No protection, not even a cup. There is only one other person I would consider doing this in the world with, but we could execute it so it was a realistic looking fight at full speed. Participating in such an excersise can be almost as an adrenaline pumping experience as whacking someone in earnest, or doing cannon drill at full speed by the numbers, as fast as can be done. It is also potentialy lethal.

At the time, I could swing what would be considered an effective blow in the SCA at speed, and stop it an inch or so off my pard's ear. I'd need 6 months of constant practise to get to that point again.

At some point, I'll put together something 'legal' to try my technique out, at some non-sanctioned tourney company event. As I've jokeingly put it, I've studied earnestly for nearly 4 years how to make it look like I'm trying to kill a man in earnest with a longsword, without ever touching him. To practise 'follow through' and cutting technique, watermellon & squash have departed the world in sacrifice.

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Bob R.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 4:53 am

In Australia, we don't do "choreographed" fighting, excpt occasionally at public demos. Generally it's every man for himself, but we also pull our blows, fight with blunt weapons, and have minimum armour standards (on the other hand, the only "cross-group" standard that we've all been able to agree on is a gauntlet and helmet.

It's not full force as practised in the SCA, but by God, it looks real.

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Egfroth

"I can't help it. I was BORN sneering" - Pooh Bah
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:33 am

I belong to a Knights Templar living history group called Novae Militiae. We do not do live steel fighting for two reasons:

1) It would not make sense to the public to have a live steel combat between two brothers of the same order. In other words, we would never historically have engaged in a fight with one another.

2) We cannot safely do choreographed steel fighting, and it would look cheezy if we tried.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

guthrothr · Post by **guthrothr** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 7:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Winterfell:
Is there any one here who belongs to a historical re-enactment group? Not a recreation group such as the SCA, but a living history group. If so do you do combat? What do you use and how much of it is staged and how much of it is free style? I am really interested in how the various groups view re-enactment combat and what they do with it. I am talking about groups such as Col. Walter Butler's Dragoons, Musketeer Battle Club, etc.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi there

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Lets follow a friendlier feeder of Wolves
Lets beat the oar-blades of our shield adorned boat
That sword-bender won't shun me seeking his company
Let's sling our shields aboard and make sail

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 8:11 am

In Australia, we don't do "choreographed" fighting, excpt occasionally at public demos. Generally it's every man for himself, but we also pull our blows, fight with blunt weapons, and have minimum armour standards (on the other hand, the only "cross-group" standard that we've all been able to agree on is a gauntlet and helmet.

This what we do in the Knights of St. Denys as well. We don't deliberately whack each other in the face, but if I do a Fiore lock and the other guy knows the counter to it, he literally tosses me on my back. If you miss a block, you get a nice scratch on your plate. There is nothing planned out ahead of time.
When Mike Odea & I did the Renn. Faire group, KOT, the egos were way too big to remain on any kind of script, and with "welded sword-shaped steel objects" we flailed on each other as hard as any SCA furniture-leg fighter. I had a 14 guage steel barrel helm smashed in with a steel flanged Thames mace at Silverleaf about three years ago. Had my nose split open last summer there as well. Steel shields tended to last about 4 shows before they were destroyed.
I've seen Adrian Empire guys go at it full-force with steel weapons although I've never fought with them.
These SCA guys who claim they are the only ones doing "authentic" combat just haven't looked around enought to realize that "denial" ain't a just a river in Egypt.

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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"

guthrothr · Post by **guthrothr** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 8:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Winterfell:
Is there any one here who belongs to a historical re-enactment group? Not a recreation group such as the SCA, but a living history group. If so do you do combat? What do you use and how much of it is staged and how much of it is free style? I am really interested in how the various groups view re-enactment combat and what they do with it. I am talking about groups such as Col. Walter Butler's Dragoons, Musketeer Battle Club, etc.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi there.

I'm heavily involved in historical re-enactment in the UK with The Vikings. Most of the events we stage are for public consumption, and so are divided into two parts. A scripted battle (not choreographed but with a pre-determined winner) and the unscripted free-style part.

Blows are delivered to restricted targets (just below neck to just above the knee but no privates) in a controlled (or pulled) fashion. Training sessions concentrate on the pulling as the most important part as 50+ do not wear any armour except the helmet and padded gloves which are mandatory. (No the majority don't wear armguards, knee or elbow pads or a 'box'. In addition the helmets are historically accurate with no face guards).

Everone prefers the free-style parts which can be very fast and furious as shield walls, skirmishers and archers manouever briefly before the main clash. Units which have their shield wall broken are quickly mopped up, and the surviving attackers re-group and maove towards the next enemy unit.

As the 'dead' fall death-screams and muted gurgles are all encouraged, a few wounded will be left behind, hoping their side wins so they can be helped off by the water-carriers, if not they will be 'put out of their misery' by the victors. Fake blood and gore is discouraged as all this is staged before an audience of up to 3000 people (all ages) on a sunny weekend afternoon.

We all know it's fantasy but it's good fun. Injuries are very rare, and its good for working up a thirst for the evenings. In some small way we try to redress the PC insanity that seems to pervade so much of society by reminding people that while wars were (are) real, nasty things, history can be fun and exciting.

Guthrothr

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Lets follow a friendlier feeder of Wolves
Lets beat the oar-blades of our shield adorned boat
That sword-bender won't shun me seeking his company
Let's sling our shields aboard and make sail

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 9:12 am

The Tourney company I'm in plans on doing rebated sword combat.I'm sure we will pull the blows, but go full speed.We will restrict targets,IE neck,groin,hands,will be off target,and not allow thrusting.We will allow blows to the top and side of the head. We are pretty much fully armoured now ,and I think it should be fairly safe. I was a "human pell" a few weeks ago with Murdoch,he used a two handed del tin. I'm still alive...Otto

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 9:15 am

I do want to go with a lighter sword,than what we used,although he said he was using the same force as with rattan,it was pretty safe,but I'm afraid an accidental hit on the fingers could be devastating.I'd be scared of steel flanged maces also,but they might be OK if you Really pull the blows...Otto

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 2:48 pm

"I'm sure we will pull the blows, but go full speed."

AFAIK we have no plans to reduce power Otto. We will disallow thrusting. But with rebeats we were gonna pretty much let ya go at it, Cap a pie of course.

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 8:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bascot:

I've seen Adrian Empire guys go at it full-force with steel weapons although I've never fought with them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We aren't supposed to be going full force :-)

Actually when we play, we just use SCA technique without follow through, aim for the surface rather than through the helm, then pull for the return, rather than completely using bounceback.

It can be close to full speed. Though it isn't quite full speed normally, especially not if the weapon is very heavy (because then it needs to be kept in control). Pole weapons, axes and maces of course can hit very hard even when there is an attempt to keep in control.

It is completely unchoreographed and fully competitive. A counted blows system is typically used for tournament combat. Helms cannot have an opening over 3/4" in any direction, so most use perf to cover eyeslots and such.

The Empire of Adria is not a re-enactment group though. It is similar to the SCA, though some local regions are more authentic than others, especially those where full re-enactment groups joined en mass.

Juliana

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 9:44 pm

In Markland we split the two: Recreation (rec) is ALMOST purely thespian and choreographed. We call it "fake fighting with real weapons". Fratricidal combat (frat) uses varying scenarios for different historic periods (regarding proof of various armor, armor counts for what it is, etc.) full protective gear and padded wooden weapons. We call it "real fighting with fake weapons". Oddly enough, this does not cause confusion, and the two activities tend to inform each other. In other words, you can tell when things feel "right" and when a combat or rec scenario feels inaccurate.

In over 32 years we've learned a lot, done some good stuff, muffed a few opportunities, and suffered very few injuries (as we trust shall continue, God(s) willing!)

Rules and other information are posted at our soon-to-be-improved WebPages at www.markland.org .

"I may not be very good, but I've outlived or outlasted many of my betters." (Uncle Atli's Very Thin Book of Wisdom)

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Full time civil servant, part time blacksmith, and seasonal Viking ship captain.

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/

Hit hot iron: www.anvilfire.com

Mike Odea · Post by **Mike Odea** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 3:01 am

live steel fighting is some thing that takes constant practice,and I dont mean a few hours a week,just to keep your edge ,its almost a daily regimine here and it must be done to the point that you can trust the other mans abilities like your own ,and it has to be somthing that you are devoted to ,I often work long hours and what feels like 8day weeks but I dont miss practice ever!

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 2:28 pm

LH groups usually need a script of some sort. Because I have western european features, I'm often the schmuck who has to die. But we have never choreographed, though some of our lesser fighters do it -- they're not comfortable with the method Csaba and I use, though choreographies generally don't look right.

What Csaba and I do, whih has been good enough that a number of professional cameramen said looked good enough for the movies, was that there was a guy who was supposed to win, and guys who weren't. Then we went at it, with either live or costume steel blades. But the guy who was supposed to lose (me, usually...) would do some move that was a bozo no-no in the fight... overextend slightly, try to force a technique, that sort of thing. Nothing obvious, but consciously making a mistake for the opponent to capitalize on. Then he'd do so, pulling the blow. This has always been small-group stuff. I am not sure if the human dynamic would allow it to work for larger groups, as it requires a high level of discipline and focus with live, real, sharpened weapons.

We often had minor injuries while training, but never, once, have we had an injury with steel in our hands. One on one, if the emphasis is to show the fighting style in a duel before an audience, we will also put protective gear on our hands, after having explaining the techniques to the audience, and letting people know that we don't choreograph, and want to make sure that we won't need two hands to order beer.

This sort of common sense and full-disclosure has always been received very well for us.

Michael B · Post by **Michael B** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 5:10 pm

Does it look 'real'?

Never having seen real medieval combat, I can't say.

However, the limitations on target areas in many groups (no side of the neck, face thrusts or slashes etc), the requirement to pull blows (the 'pulling' takes skill, but delivering a convincing-looking blow which is still safe takes far more skill than many practitioners have), and the common (but not universal) acceptance that 'one clean blow' is enough all contribute to combat that can, at times, be slightly embarrassing to watch.

As with everything, there are degrees of success and realism. However, I've seen a lot of different groups in both Australia and the UK over a period of over ten years, and it's very rare to see people who carry it off well.

Common deficiencies range from the 'flick shot', delivered with the sword from somewhere near the head of the attacker to the helm of the target (some argue that this should be regarded as effective as the attacker could have struck the face - fair enough, but doesn't make it _look_ convincing), to something I saw a couple of times in England (where head shots were not permitted) involving two people with shields, swords and chain, standing belly to belly and simultaneously holding their weapons behind their opponent's back, apparently trying to saw their way through the mail ...

As always, the systems involve compromises, and I wouldn't necessarily have it any other way. But, just like Scadian fighting (which I'll leave alone here!), I wouldn't say that it looked convincing. Sounds good, though (Ah, the sound of steel on steel ...)

Michael B

PS. I found the prohibition of head shots at Hastings 2000 both frustrating (due to the lack of targets) and liberating (no need to protect my head! Seemed like all I had to do was keep my kite shield close to my body and skewer soft mail-clad bellies in the opposing shield wall)

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Mar 07, 2002 8:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Michael B:
PS. I found the prohibition of head shots at Hastings 2000 both frustrating (due to the lack of targets) and liberating (no need to protect my head! Seemed like all I had to do was keep my kite shield close to my body and skewer soft mail-clad bellies in the opposing shield wall)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh Michael, you show-pony, you.

Egfrothos Byzantios Perpiatetikos
Basileus kai Augustus
Despotos ton Rhomaion
etc etc

Michael B · Post by **Michael B** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 4:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Egfroth:
 Oh Michael, you show-pony, you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This from the man who travelled to the other side of the world and still managed to dominate an Australian television feature on the re-enactment!

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 5:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Michael B:
This from the man who travelled to the other side of the world and still managed to dominate an Australian television feature on the re-enactment!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course! If *I* don't blow my trumpet, who will?

Egfrothos etc etc.

PS: Don't forget the photo of me in the French coffee-table book about Hastings at http://geocities.com/egfrothos/Hastings2000

Pretentious? MOI??

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Egfroth

"I can't help it. I was BORN sneering" - Pooh Bah
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

Buran · Post by **Buran** » Thu Mar 14, 2002 1:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Michael B:
Does it look 'real'?

Never having seen real medieval combat, I can't say. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I guess that's the bottom line.

For the average public attendee at one of these battle re-enactments (the kind that think the fighting in Gladiator was authentic), they will mostly be entertained, fulfilled and possible educated. For the odd Fechtbuch enthusiast, hopefully they will understand the safety concerns, maybe even join up!

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Baldurstrand