Touch kills, face thrusts and fiberglass rods

[Count Johnathan]

Yeah it does. Several people here have stated that a spear jammed in their eyesocket would only piss them off, "in real life", not disable or kill them.

LOL I'd be really pissed off if I had a spear jammed in my eye. Really pissed off and really dead.

I suggest that people try using a sharp spear on a melon or a pig. The amount of force needed to penetrate is almost nothing. Human heads fair no better.

[Maeryk]

Yeah it does. Several people here have stated that a spear jammed in their eyesocket would only piss them off, "in real life", not disable or kill them.

LOL I'd be really pissed off if I had a spear jammed in my eye. Really pissed off and really dead.

I suggest that people try using a sharp spear on a melon or a pig. The amount of force needed to penetrate is almost nothing. Human heads fair no better.

So why do we require "stout thrusts' with what are effectively spears and open faced helmet?

[DukeAvery]

Well, because it is super fun. I try to be a giver myself...

Yeah it does. Several people here have stated that a spear jammed in their eyesocket would only piss them off, "in real life", not disable or kill them.

LOL I'd be really pissed off if I had a spear jammed in my eye. Really pissed off and really dead.

I suggest that people try using a sharp spear on a melon or a pig. The amount of force needed to penetrate is almost nothing. Human heads fair no better.

So why do we require "stout thrusts' with what are effectively spears and open faced helmet?

[dukelogan]

because touching, or tapping, a human skull with a spear isnt deadly (our rules only mention death or diabling) and doing so with an sca weapon takes no skill.

conversly, hitting someone with a stout blow, like a stiff jab, might disable someone and does require skill.

day and night.

regards
logan

Yeah it does. Several people here have stated that a spear jammed in their eyesocket would only piss them off, "in real life", not disable or kill them.

LOL I'd be really pissed off if I had a spear jammed in my eye. Really pissed off and really dead.

I suggest that people try using a sharp spear on a melon or a pig. The amount of force needed to penetrate is almost nothing. Human heads fair no better.

So why do we require "stout thrusts' with what are effectively spears and open faced helmet?

[Count Johnathan]

So why do we require "stout thrusts' with what are effectively spears and open faced helmet?

Well if you have read the rest of what I mentioned previously we don't require stout thrusts. We just don't bitch when they are.

[Count Johnathan]

That and I think that peoples concept of stout varies widely depending on who you ask. I've never called a face shot light before. A graze perhaps but not anything that made direct contact with my face. Those I take because it's dumb for me to get hit there. I figure I screwed up when I do so I deserve the loss however if I get hit in the face really hard it's all the same to me. No big deal.

[William de Faleston]

That and I think that peoples concept of stout varies widely depending on who you ask. I've never called a face shot light before. A graze perhaps but not anything that made direct contact with my face. Those I take because it's dumb for me to get hit there. I figure I screwed up when I do so I deserve the loss however if I get hit in the face really hard it's all the same to me. No big deal.

This is actually a very good point, especially for those of us who still have a lot of er ... room for growth in our fighting skills. I think sometimes people who have been fighting for years get good at unconciously rolling with blows, much like in judo or other martial arts. Newer and lesser skilled fighters don't have this luxury, and often end up taking hard spear shots to the grill in much the same way a fly takes a hit from an SUV.

I'm not saying a simple touch is the answer, but a "stout" face thrust that you aren't expecting from Sir 18-stone Spear God is one of those things that tends to end the day for a newer fighter. A more experenced fighter might not have been effected nearly as much by the same shot. I've seen it happen.

[dukelogan]

well if the shot is "unexpected" it wont matter if its a new guy or a veteran. i think the difference is that the longer term guys both have better equipment and our bodies are more accustomed to blows. its sad but i see so many new fighters being encouraged to buy shitty armour and then they wonder why their junk breaks all the time or why they arent comfortable wearing it. helms are the worst as i see so many cats running around in these off the shelf $175 pieces of junk made of 14ga steel with some tie behind the head leather thong for a chin strap.

gettng used to being hit is something that just takes time. ive often suggested that if mike strahan ran up and tackled me from behind i would lay on the ground for a week. at the same time if i cracked him in his neck or shoulder with a flat snap he would do the same. reverse the targets and we are both fine.

with a proper helm unless the guy is being a total douche you cant get hurt by a hard face thrust and even if he is being one youre still probably not in any danger.

and really, if folks are worried about injuries so much that they want to ruin the sport by doing touch kills to the face they should look at how many actual injuries hay bales cause every year.

regards
logan

regards
logan

That and I think that peoples concept of stout varies widely depending on who you ask. I've never called a face shot light before. A graze perhaps but not anything that made direct contact with my face. Those I take because it's dumb for me to get hit there. I figure I screwed up when I do so I deserve the loss however if I get hit in the face really hard it's all the same to me. No big deal.

This is actually a very good point, especially for those of us who still have a lot of er ... room for growth in our fighting skills. I think sometimes people who have been fighting for years get good at unconciously rolling with blows, much like in judo or other martial arts. Newer and lesser skilled fighters don't have this luxury, and often end up taking hard spear shots to the grill in much the same way a fly takes a hit from an SUV.

I'm not saying a simple touch is the answer, but a "stout" face thrust that you aren't expecting from Sir 18-stone Spear God is one of those things that tends to end the day for a newer fighter. A more experenced fighter might not have been effected nearly as much by the same shot. I've seen it happen.

[Thorgrimr]

Personally, as long as you don't break my neck with a face thrust I don't mind getting hit with a stouter blow than "directed touch". I'd rather see the Middle go to a bit of a stiffer FT, but that's just my humble opinion.

[JvR]

because touching, or tapping, a human skull with a spear isnt deadly (our rules only mention death or diabling) and doing so with an sca weapon takes no skill.

conversly, hitting someone with a stout blow, like a stiff jab, might disable someone and does require skill.

day and night.

regards
logan

True but the rules are the rules. I for one will not break the rule because i dont agree with it. (not saying you break rules or anything) If it says no force is required then I am going to take a hit to the face as a kill no matter how light. Also I will not send a blow to the face any harder than tap if at all possible.

If I take a good stout hit the face, I wont bitch. As long as the guy who did it acknowledges it was unintentional. If was intentional. It will be handled appropriately.

[William de Faleston]

well if the shot is "unexpected" it wont matter if its a new guy or a veteran.

True. I guess what I was arguing above is that for new guys, many more shots are "unexpected," specifically in static line situations. As you also said, the longer you fight, the more your body gets used to it.

Its sad but i see so many new fighters being encouraged to buy shitty armour and then they wonder why their junk breaks all the time or why they arent comfortable wearing it.

QFT. I've shocked a few guys at war by taking a few minutes to cut some straps to size and rivet actual buckles on to replace the leather cord/duct tape/string/paperclip "repair" they made last week to their leg harness. They often act like I am Prometheus delivering fire. I think we need to do more to make sure new people know how important it is to strap and fit armour well, even it it is shitty armour. This goes double for helmets.

with a proper helm unless the guy is being a total douche you cant get hurt by a hard face thrust and even if he is being one youre still probably not in any danger.

For the most part, I agree about the lack of actual "danger," but while all fighters accept a certain level of pain for this game, pain from hard face thrusts seem to be one thing that has less acceptance. I guess it depends on what each individual's definition of "hurt" is. I have been "hurt" by a face thrust while wearing a decent helm and the guy wasn't being a total douche.

if folks are worried about injuries so much that they want to ruin the sport by doing touch kills to the face they should look at how many actual injuries hay bales cause every year.

Having tripped over a hay bale, I tend to agree. I think the solution lies somewhere between "light touch" and "hard blow."

William de Faleston

[Amanda M]

If I get tunnel vision and lose the ability to speak briefly I kinda would like a little less.

[Uilleam MacUilleam/Waffle]

Why is it one extreme or the other?

In the Middle, it is a good "pop". Not touch. Lighter than body thrust, but not "touch".

Now, I DO run across people who say "touch" and mean the same as others when they say "bop" "Pop" or "not as hard as body" - Seen it first hand.

It's not hard to tell to tell if an opponent meant to thrust, as opposed to a "skip" on the grill.


Just fight and have fun. Is it that hard?
.

From an ancient Meridian, but now a part of Gleann Abhann, the point (Pun not intended) is that if an opponent has the ability to call a face thrust "light" I have to consider hitting them harder with all the potential injury scenarios that come into play. The most common being if I am throwing a face thrust that would be a touch, but my opponent moves forward at the same moment, the thrust may end up being a little hard but not dangerous. However, if in the same scenario, I am trying to throw even a slightly harder thrust, the potential for injury goes up exponentially. Having been on both sides of this many, many times, I prefer to minimize as much as possible the chance of such an injury.

Uilleam
(Waffle)

[Uilleam MacUilleam/Waffle]

Anyway, I too am somewhat confuzled by the notion that a 'touch' to the face would somehow drive a real spear through a maille drape, through a man's SKULL (which is a pretty damn sturdy thing!), and out the back, as was posited on some other thread

Also the culture in which I learned SCA taught me that if my foe doesn't accept my first face thrust (or any shot), rather than guilt-trip him into taking it, I am to deliver a better shot, and continue until my worthy foe is satisfied.

There is indeed a happy medium with face thrusts. Valharic described a good face thrust I dealt as 'stiff and friendly' (that's catchy! ) I think that is a good standard because it means you landed a solid blow, but didn't rip the guy's head off. Plus it sounds like a funny innuendo.

In closing I still think that a 'touch-kill' method of acknowledgement for face thrusts cheapens our sport by making it far too easy to best an opponent.[/quote]

I am the one who posted this. The idea is not to guilt-trip anyone into accepting a blow. The idea is to get my opponent to understand the concept: I have the ablity, skill, and point control to touch you in the face. That means I also have the ability to hit you harder. Which should logically traslate to:"If my weapon were real, and you are wearing an open faced helm, I CAN thrust my spear through your face and out the back of your head." Even with a chainmaile drape such a blow would probably cause incapacitating damage. It also serves to be a reminder of what the armor standard actually is. Which many fighters have a tendency to forget because their faces are so well protected. The fact is I very, very rarely have do this. Even then, if they still insist on calling a face thrust light, I don't argue the point further and continue the fight.

Please do not believe that a touch to the face is an easy kill. It takes considerable amount of practice to develop a thrusting technique where you can deliver a quick significant thrust to other parts of the body, but deliver a touch to the face virtually everytime. Developing the skill to do this in drills, on a pell, and moving targets is difficult enough. Then you have to translate it to actual combat which, of course, adds a whole new myriad of dimensions.

Uilleam
(Waffle)

[Zafir al-Th'ib]

From an ancient Meridian, but now a part of Gleann Abhann, the point (Pun not intended) is that if an opponent has the ability to call a face thrust "light" I have to consider hitting them harder with all the potential injury scenarios that come into play. The most common being if I am throwing a face thrust that would be a touch, but my opponent moves forward at the same moment, the thrust may end up being a little hard but not dangerous. However, if in the same scenario, I am trying to throw even a slightly harder thrust, the potential for injury goes up exponentially.

You know what we should do, then? Remove the ability for any opponent to call any blow light. That would decrease the threat of injury exponentially. So would moving to boffers. How about we just line up and think at each other really hard?

Then again, if this one technique is so exponentially more dangerous than the others, maybe we should just remove it from the game altogether, instead of allowing these crappy brushes against a faceplate count as a solid blow struck.

By the way - there are three inches between my face and my faceplate/grill. If you didn't move my helm with that thrust, there's no way you contacted the face underneath via the aforementioned armour standard.

[Uilleam MacUilleam/Waffle]

"You know what we should do, then? Remove the ability for any opponent to call any blow light. That would decrease the threat of injury exponentially. So would moving to boffers. How about we just line up and think at each other really hard?"

Taking a statement to an unreasonable extreme does not validate an arguement. We are not talking about all blows we are talking about face thrusts, and yes, in Meridies and Gleann Abhann there is no such thing as a "light" or "glancing" face thrust. If you get hit in the face with a thrust it is good.

"Then again, if this one technique is so exponentially more dangerous than the others, maybe we should just remove it from the game altogether, instead of allowing these crappy brushes against a faceplate count as a solid blow struck."

In the way early days many, if not most, kingdoms did not allow face thrusts of any type. For many years it was a contention between Meridies and the Middle Kingdom at Border Raids because face thrust were not allowed in the Midrealm. In Meridies, almost from the beginning of it's history, face thrusts have been allow with the padding and chin strap reqirements having changed relatively little over the years. Slowly, over time, as other kingdoms realized ways to make helms safer to recieve face thrusts, they became more and more acceptable, until now, unless I am mistaken, all kingdoms allow them in one form or another. The major differences being mainly the degree of force required for the blow to be good.
The point is, at one time face thrusts were not allowed, and many kingdoms took the attitude that face thrust were an inherently dangerous technique and should not be allowed under any circustances. I saw quite a few bloody faces come off the field at the first Border Raids the Midrealm allowed face thrusts. Mainly because they did not require the correct type chin strap. It set face thrusts being accepted in the Midrealm back for years.
Now the debate is what the blow calling standard should be, and when does it become too dangerous. And, yes, face thrusts, regardless of the padding and chin strap standards, are potentially the most dangerous blow we allow in SCA combat. It is for that very reason Meridies and Gleann Abhann have the standards they have. We have seen exactly what harm can occur during an unguarded or uncontrolled moment.

"By the way - there are three inches between my face and my faceplate/grill. If you didn't move my helm with that thrust, there's no way you contacted the face underneath via the aforementioned armour standard."

You miss the point. With the blow calling standard we fight with your faceplate/grill would not be there at all. It is not would I have hit your face with the blow. It is not only I could have hit your face, it's, I could have gone through your face. For the purposes of safety, I shouldn't even have to take a chance on coming close to that, and I don't think you should ask me to.

BTW- Jousting in the SCA. Rapier and Cut and Thrust in Calontir. Two other things that ain't never going to happen.

Uilleam
(Waffle)

[Zafir al-Th'ib]

Taking a statement to an unreasonable extreme does not validate an arguement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

We are not talking about all blows we are talking about face thrusts...

...and yes, in Meridies and Gleann Abhann there is no such thing as a "light" or "glancing" face thrust.

Lucky for those two places, a rather large scale experiment has been ongoing in, well, every single other Kingdom in the Known World regarding the relative safety of non-touch facethrusts in SCA combat. Despite the exponential escalation of risk such a practice, the rest of the Known World has been able to somehow avoid the steady stream of paralyzations and deaths that positive force facethrusts must inevitably cause. I suspect conspiracy.

For many years it was a contention between Meridies and the Middle Kingdom at Border Raids because face thrust were not allowed in the Midrealm.

Speaking of which, I was living in the Middle at the time when it was proposed the Midrealm begin allowing facethrusts. The level of hysteria in some quarters is almost impossible to overstate. I have vivid memories of local fighters swearing that this would be the end of the SCA.

They were wrong. Positive force facethrusts can, apparently, be done in relative safety. Obviously, each Kingdom can make up whatever extra rules each likes; if you claim it's simply an artifact of local culture, there's not much anyone can say about that. But your defense of this practice on grounds of grave danger is absurd.

Edited: Spelling. Twice.

[dukelogan]

there are a few facts that i can share here. first one being that the wording on force, on a society level, is terribly poor. it leaves many folks with the idea that face thrusts are mere contact, period. when, in fact, it leaves the amount of force up to the kingdoms (another problem with our rules. i support one set of rules for one game).

anyway, on to the facts.

1. i have stuck hundreds, if not thousands, of guys in the face with thrusts over these many years.

2. i have only had less than a handful of them called light.

3. i have always thrown them with intent. good stiff jabs. not as stiff as when i was boxing of course, not that kind of jab. but harder than i would jab my buddy in the face if we were fooling around being dumb guys (i am the co-inventor of the face "druken punch the forehead" game!)

4. yet, somehow, with all of these hard jabs to the face i have not caused injury to a single person. not one time.

all any of this means is that it can be proven that hard face thrusts can be done safely. proving that the potential for injury is high or is even there isnt possible without trying it. well, i think many of us have tried it and its safe.

i dont think anyone who suggests hard face thrusts is into harming people, or are trying to make our sport somekind of thunderdome or anything. i think most of us are simply against the way touch "kills" cheapen the sport by taking away the demand for skill to best your opponent.

regards
logan

[dukelogan]

esa wont let me make the joke i want to make, she said she will kill me if i say anything about how the scenario you describe isnt always a bad thing or if i say anything about the other night when i got tunnel vision and wasnt speaking....... so i wont..... make the joke...... wife will kill me.... if i make the.....


logan

If I get tunnel vision and lose the ability to speak briefly I kinda would like a little less.

[bkillian]

esa wont let me make the joke i want to make, she said she will kill me if i say anything about how the scenario you describe isnt always a bad thing or if i say anything about the other night when i got tunnel vision and wasnt speaking....... so i wont..... make the joke...... wife will kill me.... if i make the.....

Shocked
logan

You are my brotha from anotha motha but.......



And yes touch kills of any sort suck and ruin our game. The fact that this is Armoured combat has to mean something.

[Bartok]

My biggest gripe with touch kills on the face is that it becomes a calibration that requires you to see the shot.

I wear a closed face helmet. Like all helmets there is a bit of wobble, I can brush my helmet with a gauntlet when I am blocking, and there is sometimes a little interplay between my gorget and my helmet...

So when I am blocking my face, it can be pretty damn near impossible to detect a touch or even something that just barely makes my helmet move. Bump the calibration up a bit so that there is a distinct blow, no problem... There is something to feel other than normal helm wobble or hear other than the normal scrape of metal on metal.

The East has active marshalling on the books for face thrusts, but people I fight try to throw face thrusts well above the minimums so we don't have to stoop to that level.

Bartok

[dukelogan]

i think you missed his point. that being that if the grille wasnt there and all you did was touch it how is he to know if you had enough distance left in your trust to have hit his face with extreme force (since it would take extreme force to defeat the maille drape and, moreso, the skull). touch kill allows for someone at the extreme end of their range to just make contact and somehow its a fight ender. that, in my opinion, does nothing to enhance our sport and leads to cheap "kills".

also, in atlantia at least, jousting and combat on horseback has been going on for years. not sure if your comment about jousting was a joke or not. the "combat" is a bit silly but i guess there is something to worry about should a powerful blow be thrown that misses and clips a horse in his melon. might turn out to be a less than pleasing situation.

regards
logan

"By the way - there are three inches between my face and my faceplate/grill. If you didn't move my helm with that thrust, there's no way you contacted the face underneath via the aforementioned armour standard."

You miss the point. With the blow calling standard we fight with your faceplate/grill would not be there at all. It is not would I have hit your face with the blow. It is not only I could have hit your face, it's, I could have gone through your face. For the purposes of safety, I shouldn't even have to take a chance on coming close to that, and I don't think you should ask me to.

BTW- Jousting in the SCA. Rapier and Cut and Thrust in Calontir. Two other things that ain't never going to happen.

Uilleam
(Waffle)

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

Jousting and mounted combat are alive and well in Atlantia. We are even ramping up our activities...

[Duncan]

BTW- Jousting in the SCA. Rapier and Cut and Thrust in Calontir. Two other things that ain't never going to happen.

Uilleam
(Waffle)

Calontir is currently experimenting with Cut and Thrust.

[Amanda M]

esa wont let me make the joke i want to make, she said she will kill me if i say anything about how the scenario you describe isnt always a bad thing or if i say anything about the other night when i got tunnel vision and wasnt speaking....... so i wont..... make the joke...... wife will kill me.... if i make the.....


logan

If I get tunnel vision and lose the ability to speak briefly I kinda would like a little less.

I'm not talking about the kind that happens when there's no blood left in your brain Your Grace.

FWIW I think every shot ought to be thrown with intent, face thrusts too. I bought a good helmet for a reason.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

first one being that the wording on force, on a society level, is terribly poor. it leaves many folks with the idea that face thrusts are mere contact, period. when, in fact, it leaves the amount of force up to the kingdoms (another problem with our rules.

Well, unless someone says "x" pounds of force, there will likely always be some confusion on wording, right?

i support one set of rules for one game).

OK, but, what if those rules were closer to the Midrealm, or Meridies, than Atlantia?


I think a lot of the issue would just go away if people had a 5 minute conversation instead of complaining. Most of my opponents know when I meant to hit them with a face thrust, and I'm honest enough to admit when I didn't land it. That includes opponents from other kingdoms. If they don't take it, no big deal. If they think I hit them too hard, I apologize and move on.

But then, I've never hit anyone nearly as hard as I could - it has never been necessary. And really if I had to, I probably wouldn't fight that person.


.

[DukeAvery]

Speaking from my Estrella experiences, I would say that it is discourteous if not illegal to call a face thrust "light". But, the strike must be just that - a strike, not merely a touch. Furthermore, there is a great tolerance, even desire for, more forceful strikes ("Estrella hard") because it enables a much more energetic level of combat that inevitably results in some hard shots as plans go awry. Spearmen who are hurting people are/were yanked and yanked quickly. Is it possible east coast spearmen don't test for/use rapid deceleration methods for face attacks?

I find that targeting a certain "tilt" of the helm will produce better results than any other method determining how hard to drive a thrust.

Regards

Avery

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

I'm not saying a simple touch is the answer, but a "stout" face thrust that you aren't expecting from Sir 18-stone Spear God is one of those things that tends to end the day for a newer fighter. A more experenced fighter might not have been effected nearly as much by the same shot. I've seen it happen.

90 times out of 100 this is an inadequately strapped and/or padded helm.
9 times it's because one or both parties were stepping forward into the shot.

1 time it's because the shot is too hard or the newbie too soft.

We pretty much give new guys about 10 minutes of "this is the pokey end" spear drills (we did have to add "don't lunge/jump/run forward and plaster a guy"), and let them go. No one gets hurt. Until they get clever and decide to fight glaive using hockey gloves and break a finger.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

and it doesn't take much at all to do damage to someones C-spine. That's my concern. My helm fits well and my liner and chinstrap won't let my face hit the front of my visor, but I really don't want to be knocked over by a face thrust by any weapon.

Getting knocked over is usually too hard. I say "usually" because some times it's the knockee's fault (off balance, dodging back, or even LIGHT-LIGHT-LIGHT-EXCESSIVE).

It also is USUALLY not injurious.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

So that I don't get accused of picking on only one side...

It's funny to me that the same kingdoms that only want "touch kills" when it comes to thrusting to the face with padded polearms or sword tips are the same kingdoms that advocate and support face shots from high impact fiberglass shafted arrows and bolts with rigid heads. I mean really?

I actually never noticed this correlation.

At the same time in Atenveldt we allow people to thrust each other in the face pretty much as hard as you want (within reason) yet we can't stand the idea that anybody would be shooting pencil sized fiberglass rods at us from bows or crossbows. Strange isn't it?

Yeah, what IS it with you guys and arrows anyway? "Ahhhhhh flying objects! Peril! The Humanity! Won't someone think of the children?? And besides it's for peasants!"

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

Why is it one extreme or the other?

In the Middle, it is a good "pop". Not touch. Lighter than body thrust, but not "touch"..

I love you guys, but a Middle Kingdom face thrust with a single handed sword is ludicrously light. A two handed spear thrust from you guys is noticeable, but frankly I doubt it would give me a nose bleed (given that it's 3" of foam) if I didn't have a helmet on.

And not to single you out - I would say the same for Aethlemark, Northshield, Ealdomere, Calontir and Trimaris. And that's leaving out the 'touch kill to the face kingdoms".

Any you know what? That's OK. Not only is it your Kingdom and local area's choice to fight that way, it's every individual's right to take however light as he or she so pleases.

I have to say that I loath and despise the "lighter to the face" rule. It is the worst part of the redonkulous "chain mail standard" rule. The "rules on the ground" are -- and have been for many years -- I hit you, you tell me if it was good. Socialization takes care of the rest.

[dukelogan]

thats absurd on every level. a thrust, face or not, can certainly be light. that makes no sense at all.

regards
logan

Speaking from my Estrella experiences, I would say that it is discourteous if not illegal to call a face thrust "light". But, the strike must be just that - a strike, not merely a touch. Furthermore, there is a great tolerance, even desire for, more forceful strikes ("Estrella hard") because it enables a much more energetic level of combat that inevitably results in some hard shots as plans go awry. Spearmen who are hurting people are/were yanked and yanked quickly. Is it possible east coast spearmen don't test for/use rapid deceleration methods for face attacks?

I find that targeting a certain "tilt" of the helm will produce better results than any other method determining how hard to drive a thrust.

Regards

Avery

[dukelogan]

well yeah, our charter describes us as nobles so the act makes no sense. also, our rules dont allow for armour at all since any contact with a hand drawn missile weapon destroys the target. if we look at reality that is beyond absurd. then we could look at the playing field that suggests to best an opponent you must posses skill, courage, prowess, and sacrifice. these things are not required in any way for people to use us as their targets.

but........ i think his point is clear and (i thought) simple. catasrophic failure of rattan or fiberglas isnt a danger in any way. weapons (that are the only ones that ignore the rules of diameter) that fail can potentially cause severe injury. if our rattan weapons fail they will do no damage at all and are even required now (thanks to the overthinker sem that sits on his throne) to be tethered to our arms. well, only if its easy to do since our larger, heavier, two handed weapons are perfectly safe not being tethered to our arms. talk about silly..... great job goomba!

anyway, when the head of an arrow comes off and (this time) hits someone in the teeth or the eye (nevermind our spectators of course) i think you will understand his point.

regards
logan

So that I don't get accused of picking on only one side...

It's funny to me that the same kingdoms that only want "touch kills" when it comes to thrusting to the face with padded polearms or sword tips are the same kingdoms that advocate and support face shots from high impact fiberglass shafted arrows and bolts with rigid heads. I mean really?

I actually never noticed this correlation.

At the same time in Atenveldt we allow people to thrust each other in the face pretty much as hard as you want (within reason) yet we can't stand the idea that anybody would be shooting pencil sized fiberglass rods at us from bows or crossbows. Strange isn't it?

Yeah, what IS it with you guys and arrows anyway? "Ahhhhhh flying objects! Peril! The Humanity! Won't someone think of the children?? And besides it's for peasants!"

[dukelogan]

word! 1000% dead on.

any shot that wont bleed me without my helm on (which honestly would be most shots but thats not my point) is bs and only cheapens our contests. there are foam padded groups for those guys and they really need the numbers. badly need the numbers!

regards
logan

Why is it one extreme or the other?

In the Middle, it is a good "pop". Not touch. Lighter than body thrust, but not "touch"..

I love you guys, but a Middle Kingdom face thrust with a single handed sword is ludicrously light. A two handed spear thrust from you guys is noticeable, but frankly I doubt it would give me a nose bleed (given that it's 3" of foam) if I didn't have a helmet on.

And not to single you out - I would say the same for Aethlemark, Northshield, Ealdomere, Calontir and Trimaris. And that's leaving out the 'touch kill to the face kingdoms".

Any you know what? That's OK. Not only is it your Kingdom and local area's choice to fight that way, it's every individual's right to take however light as he or she so pleases.

I have to say that I loath and despise the "lighter to the face" rule. It is the worst part of the redonkulous "chain mail standard" rule. The "rules on the ground" are -- and have been for many years -- I hit you, you tell me if it was good. Socialization takes care of the rest.

[Nissan Maxima]

Why is it one extreme or the other?

In the Middle, it is a good "pop". Not touch. Lighter than body thrust, but not "touch"..

I love you guys, but a Middle Kingdom face thrust with a single handed sword is ludicrously light. A two handed spear thrust from you guys is noticeable, but frankly I doubt it would give me a nose bleed (given that it's 3" of foam) if I didn't have a helmet on.

And not to single you out - I would say the same for Aethlemark, Northshield, Ealdomere, Calontir and Trimaris. And that's leaving out the 'touch kill to the face kingdoms".

Any you know what? That's OK. Not only is it your Kingdom and local area's choice to fight that way, it's every individual's right to take however light as he or she so pleases.

I have to say that I loath and despise the "lighter to the face" rule. It is the worst part of the redonkulous "chain mail standard" rule. The "rules on the ground" are -- and have been for many years -- I hit you, you tell me if it was good. Socialization takes care of the rest.

Middle kingdom calibration itself is ludicrously light.