WESTLAND - JORVIK TURN SHOES - LOW VERSION

[Westland]

We have been receiving a lot of requests for these kind of turn shoes. So here we go with these single toggle Jorvik Turn shoes with welted heal support as originals.

http://www.fondacum.com/Footwear/Images ... iginal.jpg

Available in 8 Colors

Sizes: Gents: 6 - 14 Ladies: 5 - 10

AA group sales: US$ 30.00 / Pair + Shipping US$ 10.00

[talaananthes]

Look good . . . sorry to be persnickety, though, but looking into the little details it appears that all of the originals from York actually had the toggles on the inside, as in facing towards the instep not towards the outside.

Does that make sense, and do you think you'd be able to mock up a pair of these?

Also, depending on how picky you'd like to be (I vote yes), the toe should be somewhat rounder.

I'm trying to find pictures that really show what I'm talking about that aren't reproductions made by another manufacturer, but the only originals I'm seeing are photographed from the side while I need a top shot. Really wish I had access to the university library right now.

[talaananthes]

This is about as good as it gets:

[img]http://www.worldtimelines.org.uk/webdav/image?width=230&height=230&imageid=5032[/img]

Also, see pm.

[Westland]

Look good . . . sorry to be persnickety, though, but looking into the little details it appears that all of the originals from York actually had the toggles on the inside, as in facing towards the instep not towards the outside.

Does that make sense, and do you think you'd be able to mock up a pair of these?

Also, depending on how picky you'd like to be (I vote yes), the toe should be somewhat rounder.

I'm trying to find pictures that really show what I'm talking about that aren't reproductions made by another manufacturer, but the only originals I'm seeing are photographed from the side while I need a top shot. Really wish I had access to the university library right now.

Hm, Good Idea We will upload pictures tomorrow.

[talaananthes]

Bah, this forum fails for posting images with urls that don't end with a file extension. Here's the link in clicky form.

http://www.worldtimelines.org.uk/webdav/image?width=230&height=230&imageid=5032

As I said, see your pm's for a bit more info.

[Westland]

Thank you for the images and details. We have already started work on these and will post pictures tomorrow with toggles inside and rounded toe.

[Halvgrimr]

The toggle on the inside both does and doesnt make sense to me.

I mean if you sit down, put one foot on your knee and put your shoe on, it makes sense that the toggle be there so it can be fastened.

BUT, with both toggles on the inside, it would seem to me that they would have a chance to catch on one another as you moved.

It kinda boggles the mind to think about but its what experimental archeology is all about:)

I wonder what the ration of toggles on the outside to toggles on the inside are?

With such a large amount of shoe remains from say Hedeby that might make an interesting study for someone:)

Oh look.....a shiney object!

[Westland]

[Malcolm MacLachlan]

BUT, with both toggles on the inside, it would seem to me that they would have a chance to catch on one another as you moved.

Probably only an issue if your legs are sewn together at the knees.

[Halvgrimr]

I disagree
While fighting my feet often rub one another as I move in different ways.
Sitting here in my chair as I type my feet are together, to get up I have to move them in a way that toggles 'could' catch.

Im not saying it did happen, Im saying it could happen.

Again, id like to see some hard numbers before saying that there was a set in stone method of inside or out.

One pic really aint enough to base several hundred years and several thousands of pairs of shoes on IMO.

[Adric13]

round toe regardless of toggle position would be better IMHO. the low shoe looks great otherwise.

[talaananthes]

Nearly all (I can't say all for certain, but I believe it to be all) of the shoes recovered from York had the toggles on the inside, although I believe that the originals that Westland's two-toggle boots are based off of (excavated from Haithabu, still looking for original documentation--but I know James B. has made a pair, so maybe he could help?) as well as some shoes from other sites, were toggled on the outside. So, it would seem both methods are correct for somewhere, but for England (or at least Coppergate, York) at this time, inside seems to be the way to go. The argument that perhaps this is just selection bias is certainly valid, but then again medieval archaeology is a field of study in which there is never a complete data set.

When I was talking to Alric of Drentha about it last night, he pointed me towards this source for a good discussion of the shoes excavated at York:

Q. Mould, I. Carlisle, and E. Cameron. 2003. Leather and Leatherworking in Anglo-Scandinavian and Medieval York: Craft, Industry and Everyday Life.

Haven't had a chance to root up a copy yet.

Also, I really can't imagine the toggles actually catching on each other. I mean, it could be a remote possibility, but that sounds like a pair of shoes that aren't made right to begin with.

[James B.]

I am almost positive the Jorvik toggles are on the outside of the shoe. The Hedeby/Haithabu examples are. I will have to crack my books open tonight.

Most lace ups are on the outside for boots in the middle ages too; Dru Shoemaker mentioned this too me once, he felt it was for the comfort of horses so that the laces don't rub the horse but that is speculation.

[talaananthes]

The shoes excavated at Coppergate are definitely toggled at the instep. That much I have been able to verify even based on what limited resources I have not currently having access to a university library.

[Alric of Drentha]

The source you want to check out is the one I mentioned to talaanthes, the report published on the Coppergate leather finds: Q. Mould, I. Carlisle, and E. Cameron. 2003. Leather and Leatherworking in Anglo-Scandinavian and Medieval York: Craft, Industry and Everyday Life. The first half of the book is a very detailed discussion of all the shoes recovered at the Coppergate (Jorvik) excavations, along with some good photographs and line drawings.

This shoe is classified as a Style 4a.

Regarding the placement of the toggles:

Page 3302:

Though varying slightly in aspects of construction, they all comprised an upper ... closed with a single side seam at the vamp wing on the inside of the foot. ... The shoes were fastened over the instep by a flap or flaps with toggles that were passed through loops mounted low down on the quarters. Complete examples of shoes of this style show that the fastenings and the single seam were placed on the inside of the foot though one would have thought that practicality dictated that any fastening would have been placed on the outside. This same phenomenon was noted on a near complete example from 5 Coppergate and commented on by MacGregor (pp.138, 163, Fig.72, 627, AY 17/3).

The toggles should be on the instep.

Regarding the toggles:

Page 3302:

Various methods were used to secure the fastening toggle. These small differences of attachment seen in shoes of Style 4 suggest different shoe-makers at work, rather than the output of a single worker. The toggle was usually secured by being threaded in and out of a series of slits cut into the flap. The terminal was then left free (15434) or held by making the end into a second toggle (15452). Alternatively, a slit was cut in the free end and the end passed through the slit. One (15431) had the free end, which was very narrow, curled around and passed through two tunnel stitches. On another (15432) the toggle was threaded through a triple slit in the flap, the end was then threaded back through a slit in itself and held by a widened termial to its free end. A third example had the remnant of a thong projecting from the tip. It was secured by being curled around and passed through two tunnel slits. It is unclear how this arrangement would have related to a toggle and it is possible that the shoe was perhaps tied rather than toggled. Unfortunately, the part of the quarter that normally had the tie loop had been torn away. In fastening the ankle-shoe, the toggle was padded through a loop, which was cut from a strip, either slit down the middle or a shape cut out, to form the toggle hole. The base was tapered to a single thong (15430), or bifurcated, with the resulting 'tails' passing in and out of three (occasionally more) slots cut low down in the inside quarters area. They do no seem to have been knotted or stitched, but were again held in place by a variety of methods. In the simplest, the 'tails' were long and unsecured and were held in place by the tightnes of the slots through which they are threaded. This technique was the most versatile as it would allow the length - and therefore the fit of the shoe over the instep - to be adjusted. In the second method, one 'tail' had a slit cut in it through which the end of the other passed.

There are a few things to highlight in that paragraph. On the Coppergate shoes, the toggles are always attached to the closing flap, not the base (quarters) of the shoe. They pass through a loop which is attached to the base of the shoe. That is to say, the shoe pictured above has the toggles backwards from the originals.

A note on finishing the edges of the leather around the top and sides of the flap:

pp 3302-03:

All of the shoes were finished with an edge/flesh binding stitch (edge/flesh seam with whip stitching) along the top edge which may have secured a top band, though this rarely survives. One shoe (15437) has a top band of plain strip, itself finished with a binding seam along its top edge. This may have simply served to strengthen the top edge or may have held and internal lining.

All the shoes had toes which were more rounded. I'll upload some pictures from the book to show this.

There's also a lot of detail on stitch types used and variations within the style - I would definitely recommend getting a copy of the report if you want to nitpick the details on this shoe. If you just want a rough approximation, it is enough to round the toe more, move the toggles to the instep, and attach the toggles to the flap and put a loop onto the base of the shoe for the toggle to fit into.

I've attached some pictures from the report.

[Alric of Drentha]

Two more images.

[Halvgrimr]

Without a doubt the evidence presented suggests that this is the correct method for attaching toggles.......IN YORK

As the current thread is on York its relevant, as to the topic of who common throught the Viking Age and other cultural centers....well....thats still up for debate (in another thread perhaps)

[talaananthes]

Thanks Alric . . . would you care to bring that book to Rag so I can take a look at it?

And fwiw, you can still call me Oisin here . . . I tried to register as that, but it was already taken by someone who never posts, so I fell back on my old AOL screen name.

[Seumas Ap Einar]

I am curious as to what the shipping cost to Canada might be. My house might be putting together an order soon and just would like to get the aprox shipping rates.

[Thorstenn]

Westland,

Stop making shoes and boots. You have about 10 pairs that me and my wife want several pairs of in different colors, and I cant afford it yet

Or....

Keep up the great work I love what you are doing. We shall be ordering after pennsic war September or November.

Thor.

P.S. To anybody that has ordered his stuff how do his sizes run. If I'm a 10 do I need to order a 11?

[Westland]

I am curious as to what the shipping cost to Canada might be. My house might be putting together an order soon and just would like to get the aprox shipping rates.

Please add US$ 3.00 / pair to standard USA shipping charges e.g USD 10.00 + US$3.00 = USD 13.00 for Canada

[Westland]

Westland,

Stop making shoes and boots. You have about 10 pairs that me and my wife want several pairs of in different colors, and I cant afford it yet

Or....

Keep up the great work I love what you are doing. We shall be ordering after pennsic war September or November.

Thor.

P.S. To anybody that has ordered his stuff how do his sizes run. If I'm a 10 do I need to order a 11?

Thanks for your kind comments, You can place your order any time and we will be happy to serve you.

Happy Reenacting,