Who's Up On Their Old French

[Blaine de Navarre]

Anyone?

[chef de chambre]

I have two of the best dictionaries. What is the question?

[Blaine de Navarre]

Actually my questions are a little more usage/grammar/naming conventions related than vocabulary. I'm trying to "fix" my poorly chosen SCA name.

I'll start with the easy one: the form "de Navarre" is really only correct for a member of the royal house, not just some guy from that country. In more recent French, "le Navarrien", "Navarrien" without the article, or just "Navarre" would be appropriate, but Old French has "li", "lo" and a few other forms of the definite article, and different locative suffixes (like "eis" in Franceis), so I'm trying to figure out the correct 13th century form. I like "Navareis" or, if the definite article is required, "lo Navareis", but I have absolutely no idea if either is actually correct.

EDIT: Found a reference to a "le Navarrois" living in Paris in 1292.

[Derian le Breton]

The "le breton" in my name comes from the 1292 Paris census as well.

-Derian.

[Cliff Rogers]

Le Navarrois would be appropriate for an expat from Navarre living in France. But it's the French form; the Navarrese did not speak French themselves.

[Norman]

I'll start with the easy one: the form "de Navarre" is really only correct for a member of the royal house, not just some guy from that country.

I don't believe you are correct. Compare Chretien de Troyes (stopped writing 1191 ...I believe)

[Gaston de Clermont]

Let's take a step back and figure out what language and dialect your name should be from. Is Blaine an ex-pat? If so, where is he living? What language would he speak, and what would be spoken around him? Some resources to dig into:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langues_d'oïl
It's quite possible for a merchant to be called "John" when he's in London, "Jean" when he's in Paris, and "Giovanni" when he's in Milan. "Blaine" may not have a different form in other regions, but it's worth checking.

[Blaine de Navarre]

I'll start with the easy one: the form "de Navarre" is really only correct for a member of the royal house, not just some guy from that country.

I don't believe you are correct. Compare Chretien de Troyes (stopped writing 1191 ...I believe)

My understanding is that being "of" a place meant being one of the movers and shakers of the place; in the case of kingdoms and major duchies/counties it meant exclusively members of the ruling house, in the case of cities (like Troyes), which weren't held feudally in the same way as other territories, it might mean any of the aristocratic class of the city. In any case, there are no documented instances AFAIK of anyone named "de France," "de Navarre," "de Champagne," etc. that weren't members of the ruling houses. There are documented cases of "de Troyes" and "de Paris" that I know of.

[Blaine de Navarre]

Let's take a step back and figure out what language and dialect your name should be from. Is Blaine an ex-pat? If so, where is he living?

Blaine was born in 1175 and has spent most of his life among Normans, in Normandy, Southern Ireland, the Holy Land, and Southern Italy, so any of several sub-dialects of the Norman dialect of Langue d'oil would be appropriate.

"Blaine" may not have a different form in other regions, but it's worth checking.

Actually, after "de Navarre," "Blaine" is the other problematic part of the name. It is a purely modern name, but the etymology is from "blanc". "Blanc" as a given name for men in the time period is quite rare, although Blanche is not uncommon for women. "le blanc" as a byname is more common, but it is not descriptive of either my appearance or my personality (trust me on this one), so it doesn't quite work for me. I do have white trees in my arms, so "des arbres blancs" would work, but after giving it some thought, I think I'll just keep "Blaine" (maybe lose the "e"); although it was rare it was not unknown, and, given that spelling had not yet really been standardized, the garbled spelling is plausible at a stretch.

So, currently leaning toward "Blain le Navarrois"

[ursulageorges]

Blaine, I can help with this. I'm running off to Potrero in a few minutes, so PM me to remind me to look into it.

If you have a guess for what you think the right form of a name is, sometimes just searching for it in Google Books will turn up a medieval example. If you specifically want a medieval French byname, adding "Jehan" often helps.

Ursula Georges.

[ursulageorges]

Reaney and Wilson say that Blaine as a modern surname can derive from the Middle English word "bleyne", which means "an inflammatory swelling on the surface of the body".

"White" sounds like more fun

--Ursula Georges.

[Blaine de Navarre]

Blaine as a modern surname can derive from the Middle English word "bleyne", which means "an inflammatory swelling on the surface of the body".

Great...I can be Buboe le Navarrois.

[chef de chambre]

The problem is you cannot apply the rules of modern French Grammar to Medieval French, as the rules of grammar were not set in stone in the period in question.