"...Someone with a gun on a plane is going to keep me steady until I make a decision to act depending on the situation.
On the other hand, that big hunk of metal flying at my head will make me move in a hurry."
Not one of those terrorist had a gun.All they had was box cutters/carpet knives.And they were outnumbered.
"...Also, as we do not know what happened to the pilots, even if you resisted, what can you do? Don't believe the movies where they talk someone whose never flown before down, it just don't happen..."
Actually,they do know what happened to the pilots.They were killed prior to the crash.And an attempted landing,hard as it may be, is better than flying into the ground at 600 MPH.
"...Well considering the whole point of this discussion was that if you/I were dropped into a medival battlefield..
I don't think we'll see any airplanes..
This isn't about what we see today, it's about what we'd see on the field.
Soo.. That point is invalid..."
I really wasn't trying to make a point,I was just pointing out that a hijacking situation is much more common than life or death swordplay,in todays world.
But then we come to "..This isn't about what we see today, it's about what we'd see on the field.."
Who you are and how you'll react to a situation is defined by your "modern self".We are not "medieval people".We, for all practical purposes, are from another planet.
And so are they.
Remember,you don't speak the language(s).
Which side are you on?
The list can go on and on....
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... whatever contributes to knowledge is required to be true...
Which group?
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JJ Shred
- Archive Member
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First off, to be an airline pilot one needs to have a certain amount of flying time. The only way they can get it unless they are stinking rich is in the air force. So the average pilot is likely a 25 year plus soldier.
Second, I can actually agree with Brennis on something!!!!
[Quote]I disagree with the fact that 99% of the people in SCA or on this archive would die seconds after they were dropped in the middle of battle. Point of fact regardless of how much you hate the SCA we members have probably gotten closer to the experience than anyone else except some European groups. How often do you fight in the middle of a field with thousands of people on a side and chaos all around you?
The great battle at Pennsic! It is a rush, with everyone crashing together, swirling about and getting hit from who knows where. It is hard to stay in formation because of the adrenaline and most people get killed from leaving their positions to attack in the heat of the battle. I'm sure that if you threw in the smell of blood and the screams of the wounded/dieing, you'd turn into a wild animal.
Having experienced this, you might be more prone to maintain your position and therefore win by strategy. If the shield wall breaks, everyone dies. But if the shield wall holds formation and lets the poles do the killing while protecting them, you get more kills overall than if you try to "hero" it. I have never been killed when I/we maintained our formation, but as soon as you jump out there, someone nails you from "Three Doors Down". (Sorry, it was there.)
Second, I can actually agree with Brennis on something!!!!
[Quote]I disagree with the fact that 99% of the people in SCA or on this archive would die seconds after they were dropped in the middle of battle. Point of fact regardless of how much you hate the SCA we members have probably gotten closer to the experience than anyone else except some European groups. How often do you fight in the middle of a field with thousands of people on a side and chaos all around you?
The great battle at Pennsic! It is a rush, with everyone crashing together, swirling about and getting hit from who knows where. It is hard to stay in formation because of the adrenaline and most people get killed from leaving their positions to attack in the heat of the battle. I'm sure that if you threw in the smell of blood and the screams of the wounded/dieing, you'd turn into a wild animal.
Having experienced this, you might be more prone to maintain your position and therefore win by strategy. If the shield wall breaks, everyone dies. But if the shield wall holds formation and lets the poles do the killing while protecting them, you get more kills overall than if you try to "hero" it. I have never been killed when I/we maintained our formation, but as soon as you jump out there, someone nails you from "Three Doors Down". (Sorry, it was there.)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FightinWhitie:
<B>Now this is debating,I love it!!
"..I guess my experiences would lead me to different conclusions I disagree.."
You see our point,it's YOUR experiences that make you different.Saying that you could drop people into a battlefield and they would turn into little Lemming-like machines of death is ludicrous,in my opinion.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow you really twisted what I said.
I never clamed people would become “Lemming-like machines of deathâ€
<B>Now this is debating,I love it!!
"..I guess my experiences would lead me to different conclusions I disagree.."
You see our point,it's YOUR experiences that make you different.Saying that you could drop people into a battlefield and they would turn into little Lemming-like machines of death is ludicrous,in my opinion.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow you really twisted what I said.
I never clamed people would become “Lemming-like machines of deathâ€
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Stoffel
- Archive Member
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Flonzy<I>
"1) This mostly goes for Americans. Being out of shape and FAT!!!!!!!!!! 65% of the USA is fat, not just by 10 pounds either, and they all seem to be in the SCA or some other reenactment group. There are allot of vary thin people who are not in shape either. In the Middle Ages most people who were not sick were in good shape do to physical laboring and constant training for solders and knights."</I>
I'm american, 19 years old, 160 pounds(most in my dishing arm...), and am niether fat nor skinny. Although I do agree with you on the last points.
"2) Swordsman Ship. Vary few train in actual swords man ship. Stickjocking is useless against a REAL knight. Most stickjocks have as much swordsmanship as a medieval peasant. And Most of those who train using real sword technique it is like comparing a kendo student who trains a few hours a week to the ones in Japan that train 8 hours a day. We lack training! Most lack quality training anyway."
Do you honestly think that the majority of soldiers in a medieval battle trained 8 hours a day? I would say maybe 1/4 of the soldiers where actually hard core trained in combat. Either way, I am practicing talhoffer, and the point isnt whether you could kill the whole enemy army, but whether you could survive the battle to fight another day.
"3) Armor. Most of us are tired after a 3-minute fight in our lightweight kits. Try strapping on a real 60-pound full kit on and fighting all day. This goes back to fact 1. Knights would be use to the weight do to training. Just like army ranger who run 20 miles with a 50-pound pack. Can the average guy do that? NO."
I fight in fully 16g plate, over a maille shirt, about 80lbs total, due to the rigors of sca combat. I fought with this the whole gulf wars, running back and forth in the res. battle, and literally charging back and forth from the res. point the last 15 minutes, up and down the bank of the ravine. I was at the front lines almost all the time in the open field battle, and ran as an aimer for a balista in the back of the castle in the fort battle. I think the average guy can do this, its just a matter of doing it when your life is at stake, or doing it for fun when you know you can walk off the field when you die and get a drink of water.
"4) Groups like the SCA do not allow shots to the lower leg. There were no such rules in combat. We don't fight correctly."
which is exactly why I chose the Swordsmen over the sca.
"5) Grappling. 90% of the reenactment community does not grapple. I do grapple in my Marshal Arts training, and I you are not use to it you will lose."
same response as number 4
"6) Shields. The SCA and LARPS use ridiculously over sized shield and they are made of cheap light wood that would break under the force of a flail or mace, and would chip into pieces when struck by a sword. If they had to carry a real shield made for REAL combat they could not use a round shield the size of a table. They are use to being immobile and hiding behind an OOP shield and trying to hit the other guy in the arm or head. This is not REAL sword fighting. It is crappy stickjocking."
have to say I agree with you there, thats why I fight with a pole axe. I didnt like the groove I was getting in hiding behind my shield when I fought sword and board.
"1) This mostly goes for Americans. Being out of shape and FAT!!!!!!!!!! 65% of the USA is fat, not just by 10 pounds either, and they all seem to be in the SCA or some other reenactment group. There are allot of vary thin people who are not in shape either. In the Middle Ages most people who were not sick were in good shape do to physical laboring and constant training for solders and knights."</I>
I'm american, 19 years old, 160 pounds(most in my dishing arm...), and am niether fat nor skinny. Although I do agree with you on the last points.
"2) Swordsman Ship. Vary few train in actual swords man ship. Stickjocking is useless against a REAL knight. Most stickjocks have as much swordsmanship as a medieval peasant. And Most of those who train using real sword technique it is like comparing a kendo student who trains a few hours a week to the ones in Japan that train 8 hours a day. We lack training! Most lack quality training anyway."
Do you honestly think that the majority of soldiers in a medieval battle trained 8 hours a day? I would say maybe 1/4 of the soldiers where actually hard core trained in combat. Either way, I am practicing talhoffer, and the point isnt whether you could kill the whole enemy army, but whether you could survive the battle to fight another day.
"3) Armor. Most of us are tired after a 3-minute fight in our lightweight kits. Try strapping on a real 60-pound full kit on and fighting all day. This goes back to fact 1. Knights would be use to the weight do to training. Just like army ranger who run 20 miles with a 50-pound pack. Can the average guy do that? NO."
I fight in fully 16g plate, over a maille shirt, about 80lbs total, due to the rigors of sca combat. I fought with this the whole gulf wars, running back and forth in the res. battle, and literally charging back and forth from the res. point the last 15 minutes, up and down the bank of the ravine. I was at the front lines almost all the time in the open field battle, and ran as an aimer for a balista in the back of the castle in the fort battle. I think the average guy can do this, its just a matter of doing it when your life is at stake, or doing it for fun when you know you can walk off the field when you die and get a drink of water.
"4) Groups like the SCA do not allow shots to the lower leg. There were no such rules in combat. We don't fight correctly."
which is exactly why I chose the Swordsmen over the sca.
"5) Grappling. 90% of the reenactment community does not grapple. I do grapple in my Marshal Arts training, and I you are not use to it you will lose."
same response as number 4
"6) Shields. The SCA and LARPS use ridiculously over sized shield and they are made of cheap light wood that would break under the force of a flail or mace, and would chip into pieces when struck by a sword. If they had to carry a real shield made for REAL combat they could not use a round shield the size of a table. They are use to being immobile and hiding behind an OOP shield and trying to hit the other guy in the arm or head. This is not REAL sword fighting. It is crappy stickjocking."
have to say I agree with you there, thats why I fight with a pole axe. I didnt like the groove I was getting in hiding behind my shield when I fought sword and board.
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FightinWhitie
- New Member
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Magmaforge
- Archive Member
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- Location: sweet home Chicago, Rome of the 21st c.
On one hand, we have access to some hard core period styles of fighting. On the other, inspiration, talent, and good teachers are all hard to find. They all make a good fighter.
I would go with heavy grounding in Talhoffer and Fiore, and then stick with Swordsman and St. O's. The SCA does however offer, as some have mentioned, the feeling of massive armies and chaos in the clash.
Endpoint being, Knights used to flip out and kill people all the time. I don't think that going up against a small mob of armed angry peasants, or a few professional mercs, or a professional knight or two, I would stand more of a chance than betting on the Devil's Roulette Wheel. Seems chance would keep one alive, and a fair chance to pit skill against equal skill would not arise.
Mag
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Magmaforge
"To Armour is to live"
It was as if suddenly a thousand plastic paladins cried out in terror, and then were suddenly silenced.
That's no moon. That's a plastic vendor.
I would go with heavy grounding in Talhoffer and Fiore, and then stick with Swordsman and St. O's. The SCA does however offer, as some have mentioned, the feeling of massive armies and chaos in the clash.
Endpoint being, Knights used to flip out and kill people all the time. I don't think that going up against a small mob of armed angry peasants, or a few professional mercs, or a professional knight or two, I would stand more of a chance than betting on the Devil's Roulette Wheel. Seems chance would keep one alive, and a fair chance to pit skill against equal skill would not arise.
Mag
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Magmaforge
"To Armour is to live"
It was as if suddenly a thousand plastic paladins cried out in terror, and then were suddenly silenced.
That's no moon. That's a plastic vendor.
To respond to the original question: I would stick to the SCA.
Being among the best of around 40,000 fighters would not only mean that I would be very, very good in fighting one-on-one. It would also mean that I would be very used to (because of our large battles) how armies and groups would maneuver and what I would need to do to stay alive. Naturally, all the blood, gore and screaming of the dying would put a shock on anyone, but my guess is that that would be an equal chock to anyone, regardless of group or experience.
Being among the best of around 40,000 fighters would not only mean that I would be very, very good in fighting one-on-one. It would also mean that I would be very used to (because of our large battles) how armies and groups would maneuver and what I would need to do to stay alive. Naturally, all the blood, gore and screaming of the dying would put a shock on anyone, but my guess is that that would be an equal chock to anyone, regardless of group or experience.
Murdock
Didn't mean to make our ealyer disusion a "my dad can beat up your dad thing". My point was that I get more brusies from my weekly sparing class that wearing my properly padded armor and padded cloths for sword combat.
twoswords
I guess you didn't read through everything. I can't blam you there, but what the SCA does is in no way like true medeval combat. Most people in the SCA do not even use real sword technique.
Flonzy
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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
[This message has been edited by flonzy (edited 04-11-2002).]
Didn't mean to make our ealyer disusion a "my dad can beat up your dad thing". My point was that I get more brusies from my weekly sparing class that wearing my properly padded armor and padded cloths for sword combat.
twoswords
I guess you didn't read through everything. I can't blam you there, but what the SCA does is in no way like true medeval combat. Most people in the SCA do not even use real sword technique.
Flonzy
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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
[This message has been edited by flonzy (edited 04-11-2002).]
How many people really want to drop into that situation. Its interesting to fantisize about it. It would be the ultimate way to test your luck, skill and metal, but would you really want to be there. Everyone can agree on a few topics. No matter what group you participate with there is a risk of injury, but hardly one of death. A measure of martial skill is being practiced by everyone (to verying degrees), but has it prepared each person adequately for that situation. Bare with me for a side thought. I rock clinb and am a arborist. Both involve climbing, have similar equipment and cross over skills. I tried to get my boss to try the artificial wall and he did alright. He had a hard time tring to climb the midgrade and advanced stuff I was climbing, yet he was doing much better than most entry level climbers. Now in a tree he gallavants around like a monkey. I get around farly well but dont yet have the level of skill to attempt what he does. There are certain skills that transfer through time and discovery. The biggest point to this side note is that there is always a rope. There are major differences in safety gear,but there is always a rope. Being dropped onto a ancient battlefield will leave you without the rope that we today (in what ever group) have in order that we can play today and go back to work tomarrow. Would your skill, would your luck, would your metal, would your training be enough to keep you alive.
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Murdock
- Something Different
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"but what the SCA does is in no way like true medeval combat. Most people in the SCA do not even use real sword technique."
Actually i pretty much agree, we are constrained by alot, but so are most of the groups. We are however used to getting hit, in armour. That imo counts for alot, it's like hitting a bag vs saprring. I've always learned faster in a sparring session(even a very restriced one) than by doing focus mit or bag work.
Course bag work has it's place.
Actually i pretty much agree, we are constrained by alot, but so are most of the groups. We are however used to getting hit, in armour. That imo counts for alot, it's like hitting a bag vs saprring. I've always learned faster in a sparring session(even a very restriced one) than by doing focus mit or bag work.
Course bag work has it's place.
With my luck...Ill be just stepping out of the shower an ...blam and cazam.... There I'll be on my arse dripping wet in a towel right smack between the two armies charging tward each other..... If I lucked out the sight of a white wet nekked screaming arm flailing man falling out of the sky might just be enough to cause the nobles to hold off on the battle to find out what the heck I am.... If I was really lucky they would think I was some sort of messanger of God.....and not a fallen angel/witch/human marshmello ..basically someone to burn at the stake. well, what ever the outcome every one here will be really suprised to primary sources mentioning the battle of white cheeks and whatever falling out of the sky... I can see the debate now 
....If it happened at another time besides the shower can you just think of the problem with jeans and tennis shoes being period. ....on a more serious note.. I really don't think any training would help you fight a battle you know nothing about. Every one would be you enemy. no back up no sides just everyone seeing Mr fancy pants wearing an outfit and speeking a language that they have never experianced. Say to yourself "quick speak Latin" at least that way someone might just be able to understand you over our horrible accent. beware because "When in doubt..poke his eye out!!" might just be the rule of the day.
Stosh ...ducking and running because I'm no use to myself dead... alive I can always learn and eventually find a place of honnor.
[This message has been edited by Stosh (edited 04-21-2002).]