Combat Archery-CA Opinions, Solutions, Suggestions-No Rants!

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Hrolfr -

It is an "erosion" tactic.



.

[ivanhood_01]

Greetings Count Jonathan,

Cain and I disagree on a lot of stuff, we get irritated with each other when that happens, and then we go on to something else. I don’t think we’ve ever parted company angry at each other. No matter how ridiculous his point of view is, he is still my friend.

I think I’m seeing something here and I ask you to bare with me.

Compromise is a good thing, it is an essential part of our efforts to reach some kind of point of resolution. I appreciate what you have proposed here, I really do and I have been paying attention. I support most of what you have proposed with the exception of the timing.

The above is what you are talking about.

I’m talking about something else, I’m talking about attitude.

We can change the equipment we’ve done that numerous times. But it seems to have had no impact on the attitude it just seems to get worse.

No adjustment in equipment is going to change Balins attitude about CA.

If someone were to arrive at an event walk into the middle of a camp and start screaming “I hate you! You are scum! I’m going to make you so miserable you’re never going to want to come back here! That person would probably be quietly surrounded, escorted to the parking lot, and told “politelyâ€

[DukeAvery]

As the world's leading authority on being shot with heavy crossbows with felwalkers I can tell you that past a certain point, every bolt is an insult.

But I know most of you don't mean it that way so I walked away from the thing I loved most, sca spear fighting. I don't condone Balin's rants, but I understand them. I'd say from first hand observation even so both sides have become quite adept at tighting the screws.

After all, we all have our attachments.

Regards

Avery

[Count Johnathan]

We can change the equipment we’ve done that numerous times. But it seems to have had no impact on the attitude it just seems to get worse.

No adjustment in equipment is going to change Balins attitude about CA.

Actually Balin did suggest battle fields that could eliminate some of the problem. Some portions of the field where CA is being used and others where it is not so that everybody could participate and not come into conflict with one another.

Unfortunately the changes to CA equipment has led to what some of us feel is more dangerous to the fighters and spectators. Make an effort to reduce those issues and yes much of the condemnation of the practice would go silent.

[quote]The point I’m trying to make here is we are talking about two different things, you are addressing the equipment, I am addressing the attitude.

They are two sides to the same coin. If we make adjustments in one and ignore the other we are doomed to a never-ending loop of arguments. Just like we have now.

The stereo typical “dancing archerâ€

[ivanhood_01]

We can change the equipment we’ve done that numerous times. But it seems to have had no impact on the attitude it just seems to get worse.
No adjustment in equipment is going to change Balins attitude about CA.

**Actually Balin did suggest battle fields that could eliminate some of the problem. Some portions of the field where CA is being used and others where it is not so that everybody could participate and not come into conflict with one another.**

Balin wrote:
>Remember i live here too, how many CAers Aten have? that are active? Not many and you can be sure we are working on the rest.<

You mean that Balin? I don’t see any compromise there.

**Unfortunately the changes to CA equipment has led to what some of us feel is more dangerous to the fighters and spectators. Make an effort to reduce those issues and yes much of the condemnation of the practice would go silent.**

You have to give this up. It’s a bad argument and untrue. Remember, I’ve been around since wooden shafted arrows, rabbit blunts, and no eye protection anywhere. I’m a witness to the steady and constant demand on CA and their equipment to make it safer, I’ve watched it for a couple of decades now, there is no doubt in my mind that their efforts have made it safer out there. There has been a consistent and concerted effort on the part of the CA community to address the concerns of HW fighters.

It wouldn’t hurt to acknowledge that, and I think it could help your argument. Something like “Yes we know you’ve been working on it, but it could still use some improvementsâ€

[Gorm]

Unfortunately the changes to CA equipment has led to what some of us feel is more dangerous to the fighters and spectators. Make an effort to reduce those issues and yes much of the condemnation of the practice would go silent.

com·pro·mise
   /ˈkɒmprəˌmaɪz/ Show Spelled [kom-pruh-mahyz] Show IPA noun, verb, -mised, -mis·ing.
–noun
1.
a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands.

(dictionary.com)

Over just the past 12 years (all I can testify to, having joined the SCA in 1998), the Combat Archery community has:

- removed all wooden arrows from the field
- Introduced APDs
- simplified allowable arrow constructions down from a practically infinite number to under 10 (I'm not going to count right this second)
- Codified a ban in the rules on the "archer wave", clarifying that all shots must be called by the struck fighter
- Strengthened inspection procedures, both for ammo and bows
- brought armor requirements into exact compliance with SCA minimums (save one hand gauntlet)
- eliminated "Non-Contact" archers
- Modified a previously considered "safe" design

All of these in the name of safety, game balance, or both.

Kindly provide a similar list of what concessions the Heavy Community have made towards the archers.

Until you can do so, to claim you are attempting "a Compromise" is false. You want it precisely your way, and will disregard any evidence that shows your way is suboptimal.

[captobvious]

The heavy fighters don.t need to concede a freaking thing. They're the ones getting hit, not the archers.

[AEiric Orvender]

The heavy fighters don.t need to concede a freaking thing. They're the ones getting hit, not the archers.

I've fought as an archer and been hit, both by arrows and heavy fighters... next fallacy please.

[Balin50]

these were not compromises


- removed all wooden arrows from the field
**Do this or you can't play.

- Introduced APDs
**Do this or you can't play.

- simplified allowable arrow constructions down from a practically infinite number to under 10 (I'm not going to count right this second)
**Should never have been that many approved in the first place.

- Codified a ban in the rules on the "archer wave", clarifying that all shots must be called by the struck fighter
**You forgot that if they do the CA dance they also get thrown off the field.

- Strengthened inspection procedures, both for ammo and bows
**It is a compromise to inspect your stuff?

- brought armor requirements into exact compliance with SCA minimums (save one hand gauntlet)
So not exact.

- eliminated "Non-Contact" archers
**This was a benefit to CA now we have to run all the way to you before you yield instead of 10 feet.

- Modified a previously considered "safe" design
** Considered safe by who? If it was modifies it was not safe...enough.

These were all requirements that CA had to meet before we allowed you to shoot your moving targets and if we want more we will get more.

Because the fact is CAers have no game to play without their targets. OH wait they could go play paintball. Course that would not be as much fun because their targets could should back.



Balin
Aten 101
Fighters not Targets

[Jonathon More]

Kindly provide a similar list of what concessions the Heavy Community have made towards the archers.

CA is on the field. For more than a few, that is a big compromise. Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but the compromise Johnathon is proposing is that instead of banning CA in its' entirety as he would personally prefer, that CA use a safer missile, i.e. tube/siloflex construction.

[Gorm]

Here's the problem with that, though...

We're already here. We have been since the first SCA War (okay, maybe the second, I get fuzzy around then).

As a general rule, upsetting the status quo requires that you identify a legitimate problem, then take the smallest reasonable action to resolve the problem.

Jonathan and some of the other rabid anti-CA'ers are constantly saying "We're trying to compromise with the CA community". That is a lie, they are not. They are attempting to ramrod down their individual concept of "How It Should Be", regardless of the gently phrased rebuttals from those who have shown that, in comparison with multiple other risks we take on the combat field every single day, CA is no more dangerous than the rest of our game.

I, for one, am not willing to "compromise" in that fashion. A *legitimate* compromise, where actual evidence of issue is presented with actual balanced measures at resolving them, has been welcomed in the past, and likely would again in the future.

Jonathon, Balin, et al are not the ones to propose that.

[Count Johnathan]

Balin wrote:
>Remember I live here too, how many CAers Aten have? that are active? Not many and you can be sure we are working on the rest.<

You mean that Balin? I don’t see any compromise there.

So you can ignore Balin if you don't see his method as appropriate. You two will never agree anyway though he did make a suggestion that would help a bit. I said much of the contention would go silent not ALL.

[quote]**Unfortunately the changes to CA equipment has led to what some of us feel is more dangerous to the fighters and spectators. Make an effort to reduce those issues and yes much of the condemnation of the practice would go silent.**

You have to give this up. It’s a bad argument and untrue. Remember, I’ve been around since wooden shafted arrows, rabbit blunts, and no eye protection anywhere. I’m a witness to the steady and constant demand on CA and their equipment to make it safer, I’ve watched it for a couple of decades now, there is no doubt in my mind that their efforts have made it safer out there. There has been a consistent and concerted effort on the part of the CA community to address the concerns of HW fighters.

It wouldn’t hurt to acknowledge that, and I think it could help your argument. Something like “Yes we know you’ve been working on it, but it could still use some improvementsâ€

[Count Johnathan]

Here's the problem with that, though...

We're already here. We have been since the first SCA War (okay, maybe the second, I get fuzzy around then).

As a general rule, upsetting the status quo requires that you identify a legitimate problem, then take the smallest reasonable action to resolve the problem.

Jonathan and some of the other rabid anti-CA’rs are constantly saying "We're trying to compromise with the CA community". That is a lie, they are not. They are attempting to ramrod down their individual concept of "How It Should Be", regardless of the gently phrased rebuttals from those who have shown that, in comparison with multiple other risks we take on the combat field every single day, CA is no more dangerous than the rest of our game.

I, for one, am not willing to "compromise" in that fashion. A *legitimate* compromise, where actual evidence of issue is presented with actual balanced measures at resolving them, has been welcomed in the past, and likely would again in the future.

Jonathon, Balin, et al are not the ones to propose that.

First and foremost your attitude and refusal to even discuss a possible compromise is the only evidence Balin needs to despise the CA community. Please try to see that.

The numerous changes you detailed previously were not compromises made by the CA community. Those were dictations from the SEM. You never had a choice in the matter and never had the opportunity for your voice to be heard. You did not compromise you were forced to change and it was not Balin or me that made you do it.

The number of different types of ammo was a huge screw up by a previous CA marshal who let a number of kingdoms simply do what they wanted and approved a huge amount of unsafe crap that needed to be cleaned up later. That was a failure and again not a compromise by the CA community. That never should have happened.

What I mean by compromise is actually a specific 1A1B standard as Richard has suggested, agreed upon by both sides and coming together to present to the SEM for approval. Both sides working together not just the SEM telling you guys what's next and what you must change again. I have not sent a missive to the SEM with this concept. I seek some sort of unity and backing of such an idea by both the CAers and Fighters so that we never again must have such stupid debates about who is cool and who is not.

I am talking about a FINAL solution agreed upon by both sides of the problem before it is presented to the SEM for consideration. That is compromise. Not just another change dictated to you without your opinion being taken into consideration. I don't like CA but I am willing to make that attempt. Will you help me with that or do you want to continue to anger one another with a lack of trust and animosity between the two communities, two communities that should actually be one?

Well?

[Gorm]

You present a false dichotomy.

You claim that the only options are to change as you wish, or to watch CA get banned.

As I claim that there is a third way, which is to continue with the status quo, allowing the recent rules and equipment changes to actually be used before making yet another series of changes without evidence of cause, then only taking those actions which are necessary to either address an actual safety issue, or a legitimate game balance issue that can't be fixed via more intelligent scenario design, I do not see any need to participate in your movement.

CA has a better safety record than many, if not all, of the other disciplines that make up rattan field combat in a War scenario.

Shafted ammunition has not been proven to be an actual hazard. Yes, there is a theoretical way that something bad could happen, but such theoretical ways exist with everything we take out onto the field. There are adequate safety measures in place with CA construction standards and inspection protocols to ensure that the odds of this happening are much, much more remote than dying in a car wreck on the way to the event. Furthermore, if there is an individual fighter who feels the need to protect themselves even further, they have an individual option available to themselves. No action is needed.

I concur that, in some scenario designs, CA is over balanced. Just as in some scenario designs, Sword and Shield use is over balanced, and in yet others, spears are over balanced. I contend that the solution is not to change the weapons form, but to change the scenario design paradigms. No action is needed.

Spectator safety is a concern, as it should be for every aspect of our sport. a solution has been imposed recently. I believe we should let that solution play out before demanding further change.

Your, and several of your compatriots, personal distaste for the weapons form, I can do nothing about, other than applaud you for being period in your attitude. Few Knights liked archery in period either. However, they all wanted it on their side come War time. In that way, I guess we're more period than we give ourselves credit for.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

"This week in As The Quiver Turns"....

Gorm!

Balin!

Gorm.

Balin.

"You are a combat archer! My family would never accept you! My friend Johnathon would never accept us! It can never be!!!"

"Stand in front of that hay bale and say that."

"But. I am your brother. And father."

.

[Count Johnathan]

Shafted ammunition has not been proven to be an actual hazard

Yes it has. Many times. Why do you think it has gone through so many changes over the years? Have you enjoyed having to change gear every time an accident happens? That's why changes have been made over and over again**. It continues to be a problem.

I don't want CA on the field at all. I don't want it on my side or my opponents side. It's not just a period attitude.

I am still willing to try to make it acceptable to both sides. Are you willing to assist in that or not?

I am trying, Richard is trying and even Balin has made a suggestion to allow its use without interfering with those who dislike it. NONE of us like CA and would rather see it gone. What suggestions have you made to help?

** edit to add: EXCEPT FOR CALONTIR who has NEVER had to change gear. NEVER. Their standard is what I suggest.

[Gorm]

What suggestions have you made to help?

Multiple ones over the years, long before you came onto the scene. And I'll continue to do so long after you've moved on.

When the APD debacle began years ago, I was one of the ones who spent time and money figuring out the best procedures for creating safe, consistent, and easily made APDs.

When there was a huge hue and cry over the "archer wave", I was one of the ones who helped made peace back on the list and helped move us towards our current standard.

I was one of the ones involved in Atlantia's somewhat aborted Yeoman experiment, where we tried to figure out an effective way to allow us to be more active participants on the field in defending ourselves.

To be honest, I'm sick and tired of trying to conform to the ever shifting targets. The CA community has been told *at least* three times in the last decade "This is the last set of changes you will be forced to undergo for the forseeable future". One was because of legitimate safety issue (bounceback, which led to APD, the designs of which were vetted and figured out by the CA community), the others were just to satisfy someone's desire to change shit.

I have no desire to continue the fight. I take solace in the fact that you and Balin, over in wherever you are, have little to no direct impact on how I play my game out here.

[Count Johnathan]

...long before you came onto the scene. And I'll continue to do so long after you've moved on.... .

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You can't be serious! OK moot point let’s move on.

...I take solace in the fact that you and Balin, over in wherever you are, have little to no direct impact on how I play my game out here.

I've had more impact on your game than you know. Consider this. I'll make it simple.

Rigid thin shafts can easily be eliminated. They pose a serious threat to all participants who are anywhere near the field. We know this yet we continue to allow them.

APD falls off or Blunt fails... fighter, marshal or spectator gets skewered in the face. They die. Their family not caring about the SCA sue the shite out of the SCA. Judge finds that there has been contention over shafted ammo for years. Judge finds the SCA liable and awards family of dead person millions. All kingdom assets are seized. SCA inc folds. All kingdoms eliminated. SCA gone.

It's a whole lot more realistic than you care to admit. My suggestion removes that possibility.

Think of the big picture. This possibility is why I have no problems interfering with your good time using us as targets.

[Jonathon More]

CA has a better safety record than many, if not all, of the other disciplines that make up rattan field combat in a War scenario.

no one has ever taken a steel sword on the field and stuck someone with it at an sca event. just sayin'.

I'm in the keep CA, with changes (no shafted missiles) crowd, just so you don't think I'm against CA. I'm not, I think it's fun and adds a lot in certain scenarios. I would never shoot a bow myself in combat, it's below my station, but it has a place. The point is shafted arrows do not fail safe. everything else on the field fails safe. rattan fails safe. poltruded fiberglass fails safe. ballista bolts fail safe. tennis ball rocks (trebuchet and catapult) fail safe. Arrows should fail safe. I would prefer to think that it's not like Balin says and you just don't care if someone gets hurt from your weapons. You are beginning to sound as close-minded as Balin does and it's getting tougher to give your argument credence. While Johnathons' tone tends to irritate me he is trying like hell to have a conversation and it seems like you are just unwilling to look at what he has to say. I think the CA faction would do well to take advantage of the situation when a hard-line anti CA peer is willing to talk civilly about things.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

This is better than 12 Angry Men. Or at least Ishtar.

.

[Jonathon More]

hell, a sharp stick in the eye is better than ishtar...

[Count Johnathan]

Ishtar sucked. God did that movie suck.

[DukeAvery]

But kingdoms like the West and Caid will never willing go for a shafted ammo ban and they have the safety records to back it up, spectator issues aside.

But if you can get the Outlands, Calontir, Artemisia, and Ansteorra behind a tube ammo standard at Estrella it would also greatly reduce the spectator hazard that regularly exists there now to my first hand and paced observations.

Think.

Regards

Avery

[DeCalmont]

I'd be surprised if Ansteorra would join in the tube ammo as we have the safety record to back up our use of shafted ammo as well.

[Jonathon More]

have to admit that I am still really really new to the sca in the PNW. Been ighting in the sca since 1985 in the middle though, so I have to admit that the my CA experience is pretty much limited to the Middle and East, and Pennsic since #17. Throw in a couple Gulf wars and the odd Lillies war too. Don't remember which Pennsic it was that we first had CA in though. I did fight at An-tir/West war last summer and really can't remember much at all about any CA that went on there, so I guess it wasn't an issue. Any help or illumination about the issues that are more specific to the west of the Mississippi action would be great. Wish I had time to get to more events out here...

[DukeAvery]

I'd be surprised if Ansteorra would join in the tube ammo as we have the safety record to back up our use of shafted ammo as well.

Well, I'm not convinced it is all the safer for spectators anyway. The Calontiri believe so. Maybe they are right. What about a heavy crossbow with shafted ammo ban? These last are the most likely to produce a worst case scenario.

Regards

Avery

[DeCalmont]

Ansteorra uses light crossbows 600 i.p. or less already.

[Count Johnathan]

Problem is Caers don't think that any issue exists. They won't be convinced until somebody does get killed but of course then it's too late.

You said Ban. It will never work.

[ivanhood_01]

Balin wrote:

>PS Richard it was a statement to Ivan not a name i said he was lying in his post hence he is a liar. That was civil; however your thread so *i am out* you can continue to play pat each other on the back with Ivan if you want.<Thanks>Balin wrote:<

>PS Richard it was a statement to Ivan not a name i said he was lying in his post hence he is a liar.<If>Balin wrote:<

>That was civil;<

No it wasn’t, and it was never meant to be. Who’s the liar now?

In case you haven’t noticed that’s 2, trivial at best, but you get the idea.

If there are any of you left who have a sliver of confidence in his veracity, let me add this as a testimony to his character:

Balin is the only Aten field officer I know of to be fragged by his own troops. I know the guy who did it; he got tired of watching Balin cheat.

Come to think of it, I’m gonna come up with some kind of medal for that person.

Ya know, I think we should get around to taking a closer look at you Balin. Frankly your obsession with CA, the rants, the threats, and your admission of your personal efforts to drive fellow members out of the SCA, is borderline delusional, and very, very disturbing.

If being on the field with all this blatant hostility and contempt isn’t enough to get you kicked out, you’ve admitted harassing other members on numerous occasions. That’s harassing people Balin! Paying members! And you have boasted about it! Repeatedly.

I think it’s time to shine the spot light on you.

How’s this for a scenario?

Balin goes into the field, hunting archers, he finally gets to live his fantasy and clocks someone really “goodâ€

[ivanhood_01]

Missed a quote:

<Broadway>

<Balin>

Again thanks,

[ivanhood_01]

Facinating,

You can't quote Broadway here in the normal fashion.

Very clever, I was refering to his comment about it being ok for Balin to call anyone he wanted a liar here.

Look it up, if you've forgotten.

Nice

[Count Johnathan]

I don't understand what the hell you are talking about with Balin being "fragged" by his own troops. Sounds stupid man. You also submit a "what if" for a scenario where Balin hurts someone intentionally.

And you wonder why he called you a liar.

You are delusional, and very, very disturbing Ivan.

No wonder my Dad punched you in the face. You obviously deserved it. Go take your meds and a long walk.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

This whole thread has more What-Ifs than the entire Marvel Comic Library...

And as many issues.


.

[Nissan Maxima]

I see insane people.

[Richard Blackmoore]

Oh for the love of...

Look, I have to go help a friend bury a relative.

So I don't really have time for this never ending warfare between Balin, Ivan & Johnathan, regardless of who may have started it this time.

Ivan, Balin should not have called you a liar days ago and provoked you, that was wrong and I told him to stop or leave (whether JT would really let me actually do anything about it or not, per Broadway's comments to the contrary). I believe Balin has gone back and edited his posts since then and added an explanation that he didn't need to be rude.

The conversation was going great after that ALL THREE of you made very good points without sniping at each other.
If there are any of you left who have a sliver of confidence in his veracity, let me add this as a testimony to his character:

Balin is the only Aten field officer I know of to be fragged by his own troops. I know the guy who did it; he got tired of watching Balin cheat.

Come to think of it, I’m gonna come up with some kind of medal for that person.

Ivan, bringing up Balin alledgedly cheating and getting fragged in the past (real or perceived) brought nothing to this conversation. You had to know your comments were going to provoke a reaction.

Talking about some of the other issues, like perceived or actual bullying as an issue overall? Fine that is legitimate if you are careful about how you write it. But be careful. That rapidly gets personal and the whole idea here is to fix things, not inflame people on the other side.

Yes, I have serious issues with some things Balin writes at times and I tell him so. I don't have to attack him to tell him why I think he is off base. Hopefully he would treat me with the same casual respect when I make a mistake. Not attack me. No one learns then, people just get their backs up and stay angry and nothing changes.

Johnathan, your last comments were inappropriate too, though you reacted to Ivan's post so I'm understanding it while not condoning it at all.

I'm asking both of you to please go back and remove the offending sections, you know what they are.

Hundreds of people are reading this thread and sharing ideas for possible solutions and learning from each other.

If you two can't discuss your issues in a civil and constructive manner, please take it off line until you can. Otherwise everybody else loses. Obviously there is a lot of personal history there that I can't fix, but this is not the proper forum for Ivan, Johnathan and Balin to deal with past grievances, some of which are very old.

Yes, serious attitude problems can be an issue. Of course. But if you can't talk about it in a civil manner, stay off the thread until you can.

Look, as Johnathan said, I really don't like CA. But this isn't about me. It is about finding solutions and working with each other, assuming the other person will act in good faith and try to find common ground.

Balin is free to want CA gone and push for it. Give reasons, etc.

Johnathan is free to want it kept only if changes he believes are needed are made. Give reasons, etc.

Ivan is free to believe it is largely OK as is. Give reasons, etc.

Gorm is free to feel CA has made compromises. Give reasons, etc.

Handle it that way. Make your most persuasive arguments, expose flaws in other's positions, have rational healthy debate.

Or just stop typing.

Richard Blackmoore