danger in using thin shields?

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 8:18 am

I have been thinking about the problems with using indistructible shields in sca, and although I dont see it changing any time soon due to safety and money concerns, I was thinking about having certain fights whether in or outside the sca, using shields that were a lighter weight that could be broken. I dont like seeing people hide behind thier shields when they fight, with no worry about anythign getting through the shield.

What would be some of the problems with having a fight using shields out of something like fiber board or really thin plywood? Something that is rigid enough to block blows with, but something that cant stand constant beating from say a great sword or pole arm.

I think if this was the norm, you would see alot of people turn to bucklers as a primary form of defense, or polearms/great weapons.

What is your opinion? Keep in mind I'm not trying to get the sca to change to this or anything. This would just be an experiment.

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 8:42 am

That would be a pretty cool idea.
What I would suggest would be:
1. Shield arm must be full armoured.
2. Clamshell or equivalant hand protection for both hands.
3. The inside of the shield should be ducttaped. The reason is that inorder to avoid splinters from going everywhere. I would suggest black duct tape so that it would not look so bad.
OR
Bolt the planks together like some viking shields.

Since you are talking about sheilds destined for quick destructions you will not need to add the rubber hosing edges and one can create a bunch for each tournament pretty quickly. Mayhaps a three shield max per bout. Kinda like in 13th Warrior.
I would be down for something like this on or off an SCA field.

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:28 am

I have a slight misgiving from an entirely SCA standpoint. A LOT of years ago I was marshalling at an event and saw something odd on the striking end of one fighter's sword. I was thinking maybe it was some hanging duct tape but it just didn't look right. I called a hold after I watched it for a couple of blows. It turned out to be BIG splinters coming off of his opponent's shield. They were embedding themselves into the sword blade, turning it into a sort of "poor man's war hammer".

Doesn't sound so bad except for the two large (3" long or so) splinters we reomved from the receiving fighter's gambeson and HELMET PADDING RIGHT BY THE EYESLOT!

From the angle I was at all I saw was the inside of the splintering shield, and didn't see where it was coming apart on the far side.

EEEWWWW!

Splinters and 1" wide eyeslots or bargrills equals BAD. I've see modern jousters helmets that have mesh welded to the inside of the openings on the helms to stop splinters.

Kevin the Hound

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:21 pm

I have seen some similar things but if you have a sheild desgin that will snap apart safely it would be fun to play.

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 12:50 pm

I think some type of fiber board, somehow reinforced(maybe canvas glued to the inside), would prevent splinters that you would get with plywood.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:36 pm

Just a thought here- the shield wouldn't necessarily have to be made from wood. A friend of mine used to have these oversized kickboards that were made of some sort of foam. We used to smack each other with them sometimes, and they would take a decent amount of pounding and then would suddenly break in half. Not sure if you could make something like that look right, but a shield made of that type of a material would be able to break under a blow without any safety worries from splinters or jagged edges.

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Otto von Aachen
Kingdom of the Outlands, Canton of Hawks Hollow

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:34 pm

But my unrealistic sheild is the only thing between myself and the unrealistic effects of combat archery.........

(grin)

VvS

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 2:41 pm

"But my unrealistic sheild is the only thing between myself and the unrealistic effects of combat archery.........
(grin)

VvS "

Archers.....
Loose!
*Twang!*

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

jester · Post by **jester** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:27 pm

Laminated cardboard (preferably the heavy duty stuff). Build yourself a shield press and use multiple layers of cardboard. Glue a canvas cover onto the outside.

The shield will not splinter, in an authentic fashion, but great weapons will leave gaping salients in the edges.

You may want to consider an arm guard for strapped shields. This is a piece of metal (and padding) that covers the portion of the arm in contact with the shield. The arm guard is attached (glued is fine) to the back of the shield. It's purpose is to prevent the arm from being broken when a great weapon gets carried away and steps in to crush the shield (forgetting that there is an arm behind it). The arm guard, of course, is re-usable when the current shield is trashed.

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 4:37 pm

I would think that using destructible shields would certainly bring an end to those stupid static shield walls in melee. Imagine actually being able to punch your spear through a shield...that would add such a great new aspect to the game...damn, now the hamster wheel is turning in my head...

I like the idea of laminated cardboard, very cheap, fairly rigid, but still destructible.

Michael B · Post by **Michael B** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 4:49 pm

I don't think that achieving an 'authentic' shield and weapon interaction is going to be easy as long as you are using blunt weapons (even rebated steel).

There is evidence that shields in at least part of the medieval period were surprisingly thin (see http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/shield/shield.html: "The planks were usually only 6-10mm thick (Table 2), and were bevelled even thinner at the outer edge".)

One might think that these would fall apart quickly in combat. But we should also think about the effect of the shields on sharp weapons - hitting the shield with a sword or spear could well cause the blade to stick in the wood (hence the reference in at least one Viking saga, if I recall correctly, to shields being the 'net of spears'), allowing the shield bearer to twist the weapon out of the attacker's grasp or simply to take the opportunity to strike.

Hitting the shield would also risk blunting or breaking a spear point (particularly where metal bosses are present, but even with wood). I understand that Regia Anglorum's combat rules discourage striking at shields by deeming repeated strikes with a spear as rendering the spear useless (thus bringing an end to the practice of people teaming up to pivot the shield by striking at one edge, allowing their companion to take advantage of the opening).

Perhaps it would be more accurate to try to avoid striking the shield as much as possible, eliminating many of the useless blows-that-are-never-going-to-connect-but-hey-I've-got-to-do-something that re-enactment combat seems to encourage.

Cheers
Michael B

Abaddon · Post by **Abaddon** » Mon Jul 15, 2002 5:53 pm

Having just completed an SCA legal shield...after about five hours of painstaking work...the idea of having it break and me having to re-do all my work stinks. I am all for indestructible sheilds.
I hope mine acually is.

Pietro da San Tebaldo · Tue Jul 16, 2002 8:11 am

I like the cardboard idea. If I can whomp up one or two in time for Pennsic, anyone wanna play?

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"Or, a pall inverted surmounted by an orle Azure counterchanged"
mka: Sam Pearce

Berok Silfrson · Post by **Berok Silfrson** » Tue Jul 16, 2002 10:13 am

Reading this thread got me to thinking about break away shields. imagine this. take your ordinary heater sheild. cut it into peices as a normal set of blows would have cut thru the shield. attach hinges to the back side of the shield, over these cuts. hold the hinges closed on the front with some duct tape. now with some repetative blows or some monstrous hits the shield breaks away.....

just my .02

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Bachelors know more about women than married men
do. If they didn't, they'd be married too.

H. L. Mencken

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Tue Jul 16, 2002 3:40 pm

Stoffels' idea has a lot to recomend it. As it stands I think that the indestructable SCA shields give the weapon and shield form an unrealistic advantage in most situations. I agree that splintering wood is a hazard but I'm sure suitable substitutes, such as some of those suggested above, could be found.

Wulfgar Ullicsson · Post by **Wulfgar Ullicsson** » Tue Jul 16, 2002 7:35 pm

Suede... the wonder material for shields...

I have a 3/8 (three ply) wooden shield that I made two years ago...

http://www.100megsfree3.com/kragaxe/archive/gallery1/wulfgar2.jpg

The front is suede cemented on with contact cement (the non-toxic stuff in the green can), as of Quad War two weeks ago the shield is now officially retired, but despite being completely broken in three places it still retains it's shape and is more or less splinter-free, the suede seems to flex really well, while preventing the wood from reaching it's breaking point...

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<I><B>"Wulfgar spake, the Wendles' chieftain,
whose might of mind to many was known..."</I></B>

Wulfgar Ullicsson inn Gerpir