In the discussion on wrap shots,(I didn't wanna bog the thread down with this, it's been quite interesting!) you made the following quote-
"Vitus - I think you need to be able to examine this discussion from a more detatched point of view. By stating outright "That you refuse to believe that all primary source material is gospel" , you are placing yourself in a position that you are discrediting yourself. When it comes to documenting historical things, primary source material is the only possible way to document these things."
OK, I can see where you're coming from.....
But one has to have a certain detatchment from primary sources as well!
Taking things at face value just because they are primary source, can become rather confusing!
Just for example, I know the soldiers at the time of Christ weren't wearing milanese gothic plate.
But looking at paintings it sure seems they were......
(yeah, I know, kinda bad analogy, but get what I'm saying?)
How about when you have two primary sources that contradict one another?
Just because they are both primary sources doesn't mean that both are right.
The trouble with primary sources is that, in many cases, they have been embellished by the authors, much as hollywood does today.
This is NOT to say they aren't valuable, in fact they very much are!
But I don't take them all as gospel either.
Alot of times they omit very important details.
Take period woodcuts about the Spanish conquest in the New World.
You won't see a Spaniard in any of them covered in mosquito bites, scratching sand fleas, etc......
But, from personal experience, living in Florida (in 2002 with modern pesticides and mosquito control it can be bad, 500 years ago? I shudder at the thought of it...), I can ASSURE you they dealt with that every day.
It must have been maddening!
Accounts from the time seldom mention the sheer misery these poor bastards must have faced.(and the guys in the woodcuts look pretty clean and fresh too, clothes look pretty good, not an easy feat in 1500's Florida!)
But you really wouldn't know that from looking at primary source material from that period.
Am I making any sense here?
VvS
Chef......
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Bob H
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Pictorial resources are not the only period sources. If you'll examine journals, letters, and similar accounts of the colonial Spanish in America, I'm certain you'll find many accounts of the maddening insects and heat, as well as myriad other woes (including some imagined ones).
You make a valid point in not trusting primary sources too literally. Evaluating the perspectives and purposes of the artist or writer is much of the fun of research.
You make a valid point in not trusting primary sources too literally. Evaluating the perspectives and purposes of the artist or writer is much of the fun of research.
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chef de chambre
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Hi Vermin,
Well, certainly you don't take one primary source and use it as gospel, disregarding every other source. That said, primary source material is the most important as it is closest to the events happening, or practises in question.
In example, while obviously Romans were not wearing Milanese plate, nor Gauls Franco-Flemish plate, a source such as "The Justice of Trajan" tapestries, or the "Ceasar" tapestries provides us with useful details and an overal picture of such items contemporary to Dietric Bouts who is drawing the cartoons for the tapestries.
What is needed for documentation is many sources - prefferable all contemporary, first-hand accounts. Best from differing viewpoints (such as the chronicle of Neuss, as well as the Burgundian authors regarding the Siege of Neuss, and the Dispatches of the Milanese ambassador who was present, as well as letters authored from commanders in the imperial army) to get a clear picture. In the example above, if you relied entirely on de Commynes, you would get nothing but the viewpoint of an apologist for Louis XI who often distorte facts, as well as chronology of events, to make his master look good.
That is why I reccommended to Rhys to go beyond the chronicles. There is an amazing ammount of primary documentation for campaigns and battles available - they just aren't as 'sexy' as chronicles, or as easy to read. If you go by chronicle accounts of things such as the size of John the Fearlesses army on taking control of the government in Paris from the Argemacs, you get several sets of wildly varying numbers - often inflated to sound impressive. In contrast, when you go to the ducal accounts for paying for the army, you find out down to the last musician, barber-surgeon, and groom employed - the number about 1/10th the estimate of the lowest estimate by a chronicler. But then again, when have account books ever been 'sexy'.
When you couple all the documentary sources, with good archaeology - then you can get a clear picture of events. Look at what the wildfire in the Little Bighorn battlefield a few years back, and the subsequent plotting of the course of the battle from expended cartrige cases, and even a 'lost' soldier found did for our knowledge of the course of the battle.
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Bob R.
Well, certainly you don't take one primary source and use it as gospel, disregarding every other source. That said, primary source material is the most important as it is closest to the events happening, or practises in question.
In example, while obviously Romans were not wearing Milanese plate, nor Gauls Franco-Flemish plate, a source such as "The Justice of Trajan" tapestries, or the "Ceasar" tapestries provides us with useful details and an overal picture of such items contemporary to Dietric Bouts who is drawing the cartoons for the tapestries.
What is needed for documentation is many sources - prefferable all contemporary, first-hand accounts. Best from differing viewpoints (such as the chronicle of Neuss, as well as the Burgundian authors regarding the Siege of Neuss, and the Dispatches of the Milanese ambassador who was present, as well as letters authored from commanders in the imperial army) to get a clear picture. In the example above, if you relied entirely on de Commynes, you would get nothing but the viewpoint of an apologist for Louis XI who often distorte facts, as well as chronology of events, to make his master look good.
That is why I reccommended to Rhys to go beyond the chronicles. There is an amazing ammount of primary documentation for campaigns and battles available - they just aren't as 'sexy' as chronicles, or as easy to read. If you go by chronicle accounts of things such as the size of John the Fearlesses army on taking control of the government in Paris from the Argemacs, you get several sets of wildly varying numbers - often inflated to sound impressive. In contrast, when you go to the ducal accounts for paying for the army, you find out down to the last musician, barber-surgeon, and groom employed - the number about 1/10th the estimate of the lowest estimate by a chronicler. But then again, when have account books ever been 'sexy'.
When you couple all the documentary sources, with good archaeology - then you can get a clear picture of events. Look at what the wildfire in the Little Bighorn battlefield a few years back, and the subsequent plotting of the course of the battle from expended cartrige cases, and even a 'lost' soldier found did for our knowledge of the course of the battle.
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Bob R.
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chef de chambre
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Hi Vermin,
Not at all. Actually, my clarity of thought, and ability to communicate has dropped a bit over the past three months of working third shift. I know what I want to say, but my ability to communicate it has dropped drasticaly.
Now I have tyo go sleep - I'm an hour overdue, to give you an idea of what I'm dealing with.
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Bob R.
Not at all. Actually, my clarity of thought, and ability to communicate has dropped a bit over the past three months of working third shift. I know what I want to say, but my ability to communicate it has dropped drasticaly.
Now I have tyo go sleep - I'm an hour overdue, to give you an idea of what I'm dealing with.
------------------
Bob R.