First post here, sorry if this has come up before, but I didn't see it in the forum or the faq.
I'm thinking about more historically based plate armor here, no plastic/leather/pickle barrel plate. I haven't done much with armor, am doing my first armored gig now (Camlann Medieval Faire), and thinking about what I'd do different, or what I'd want from a suit of armor that would actually fit right and be in decent shape, and what I could use it for. I do mostly stage combat, some light sparring, and am wondering what limits should be set for armored combatants.
How often did/does/should it have to be hammered back into shape? What about freedom of movement? As a stage combat choreographer, is it a bad idea to expect armored actors to be able to fall (forwards, backwards, to the side), drop to their knees, maybe even do a roll? Take a light hit with a sword? A bash with a shield? All of the above, twice daily for a month? What's standard weight for a full harness of plate?
What I'm using now (not mine) probably weighs about 40 lbs, but that's just fronts of legs, breastplate, helm, and gauntlets, all a couple sizes too big. I've noticed that several of us have a problem with the knees needing to be bashed back into place periodically, especially after kneeling in it. Is that inherent, or is it a symptom of old, beat up armor?
Just trying to get a sense for what people would consider fair use and reasonable expectations. I guess some of this will obviously depend on the type of harness in
terms of visibility and freedom of movement, and stainless vs. mild steel on durability, but is there a general consensus of sorts? Kinda like with sharp swords and cutting practice: cutting mats ok, boxes ok,
cutting plywood maybe possibly ok for the right sword, cutting trees definitely bad...
What other factors are there? Do things like Maximillian type ridges make it stronger, or do they just get smashed first, like the crumple zones built into cars for crash safety?
I know there are a lot of things in there, but are there any basic rules to stick by?
Thanks!
Armor Abuse
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Zafir al-Th'ib
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- Location: Boston, MA
Welcome to the Forum!
First off, it sounds like you are currently using rather flimy reproduction armor. This stuff can be made to look rather nice, but attempting to (mock) fight in it is asking for injury and a lot of repair work.
In well-made, durable plate, it is completely reasonable to ask your actors to do nearly anything they could do outside of armor - I have done everything you list in mild steel gothic armor, which is heavier than armor in period, and in spring steel I could do 99% of what I am capable of in simple clothing.
People are going to need more specifics - either the specific material (including gauge) and type of armor you currently use, or how much you are willing to spend in buying new suits and what you would ideally like to be able to do while wearing it.
First off, it sounds like you are currently using rather flimy reproduction armor. This stuff can be made to look rather nice, but attempting to (mock) fight in it is asking for injury and a lot of repair work.
In well-made, durable plate, it is completely reasonable to ask your actors to do nearly anything they could do outside of armor - I have done everything you list in mild steel gothic armor, which is heavier than armor in period, and in spring steel I could do 99% of what I am capable of in simple clothing.
People are going to need more specifics - either the specific material (including gauge) and type of armor you currently use, or how much you are willing to spend in buying new suits and what you would ideally like to be able to do while wearing it.
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Destichado
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That, and remember that there's nothing mystical about well made armour. Normal people make it every day. Taylored fit and proper shape are everything.
In period, knights danced, turned sumersaults, got knocked off their horses and got bashed on the head, and then got up, dusted themselves off, and did it again. Their armour was supposed to be able to do the same (within reason).
Your armour should be able to take whatever your actors can take, except for the knees. Falling onto knees is HARD on knee cops. Expect to pound those out more often.
In period, knights danced, turned sumersaults, got knocked off their horses and got bashed on the head, and then got up, dusted themselves off, and did it again. Their armour was supposed to be able to do the same (within reason).
Your armour should be able to take whatever your actors can take, except for the knees. Falling onto knees is HARD on knee cops. Expect to pound those out more often.
The gear I'm using now is acutually not really stage armor- I think it was originally used for SCA style stickfighting, and it's got an impressive collection of dents in the helmet. The right leg has many little divots which I think came from people pounding the thight back under the knee when they've separated- the sweatpants I wear under them for the show are full of holes on the knees, from where they've gotten pinched and cissored between the two plates.
I don't have specifics of armor type partly because that's one thing I'm trying to figure out. Advice?
I don't have specifics of armor type partly because that's one thing I'm trying to figure out. Advice?
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Cet
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I would suggest looking through some books on armour so that you have a better idea as to what type/time period armour you want. All historic armour was made for men to wear in combat and as such, when reproduced faithfully, should allow your actors sufficient mobility for the stage. Keep in mind that armour doesn't stop with the metal bits. As plate armour began to supercede mail specialized arming cloths became increasingly important and many styles of armour from the 14th century onwards require
these foundation garments if they are to be worn properly and with acceptable comfort
(.i.e.no pinching or tearing). Arms and Armour of the medieval Knight by Edge and Padock would be a good source to start with. It is comonly available and provides a good overview of the types of armour used throughout the medieval period.
these foundation garments if they are to be worn properly and with acceptable comfort
(.i.e.no pinching or tearing). Arms and Armour of the medieval Knight by Edge and Padock would be a good source to start with. It is comonly available and provides a good overview of the types of armour used throughout the medieval period.
ANSI didn't exist back then, and they don't have anything on armor for today either. 
The biggest problem is going to boil down to the same thing as everything else: green pictures of dead presidents.
You could get something that looks reasonable in 18 gauge mild steel for pretty cheap. Cheap generally means that it'll get smashed up like tin foil.
Then there's the SCA route. I'd place this in the mid-cost category, since you can outfit yourself off the peg for under a grand or so, if you're not making it yourself.
However, the SCA in general (I'm a member, and yes, this is intended as a slam) doesn't really frown on anything as long as it doesn't look like it came off the set of the Road Warrior... and even that stuff gets on the field. So for authenticity purposes, it means that in most cases with SCA armor you can only expect to be able to pull one over on those who don't know any different.
On the other hand, SCA armor by nature has to be durable, and in a lot of cases that's what lends the "neariod" look to it. Since construction methods and materials differ, authenticity is sacrificed for safety. Mild steel is used in lieu of hardened steel, which means that it has to be a lot thicker. Also, modern techniques are used in its production, so it's difficult to get the feel of authentic armor. However, you won't be banging many dents out of it.
Then there's the third option, which is truly authentic gear. This comes with its own set of problems.
First there's the fact that nobody I know of is making it in production quantities. It is very time intensive and requires a skill set beyond that of the average armorer.
Compare an average raised helm with an SCA helm. All the reports I keep hearing is that it takes people that are just starting to do it over 100 hours of labor to make one helm. Let's be real generous and say that an experienced person would take 40 hours. That's still a week's gross income for an armorer, and it's still about 4 times more than an SCA helm would take.
So we get to the second problem, cost. A week's gross pay to cover your head... which is somewhere around 15% of the area you're trying to cover.
Third is the fact that if it gets dented, and you don't know what to do about it, you're pretty hosed. Since it's hardened, you can't just go banging it back into shape without risking cracking it in half.
I guess my suggestion would be to go with SCA armor, since it'll put up with what you want to do.
To actually answer a couple of your questions:
Flutes make the armor stronger. They're not crumple zones, they're reenforcing ridges. It's the same concept as I-beams.
If you're fit and can cope with the added weight, there's no reason to not be able to do somersaults in armor. The whole "crane to get you in your saddle" thing is a myth.
Believe it or not, pretty much all of the injuries I've seen in the SCA have been lower leg injuries. Well, I'm not counting the moderate cuts to the forehead from badly padded helms, and I'm not counting big horse- kick bruises: I'm only counting the bad stuff.
It's most important to have a good balance in your armor, and to know how to move in it. If you've been sitting around for a week or two, then get into armor and step the wrong way once and end up out of balance, you could do some serious ankle damage just from the extra weight.
It also helps to not have a metric ton of flesh fall on your lower leg.
Hope this rambling helps
HELMUT
The biggest problem is going to boil down to the same thing as everything else: green pictures of dead presidents.
You could get something that looks reasonable in 18 gauge mild steel for pretty cheap. Cheap generally means that it'll get smashed up like tin foil.
Then there's the SCA route. I'd place this in the mid-cost category, since you can outfit yourself off the peg for under a grand or so, if you're not making it yourself.
However, the SCA in general (I'm a member, and yes, this is intended as a slam) doesn't really frown on anything as long as it doesn't look like it came off the set of the Road Warrior... and even that stuff gets on the field. So for authenticity purposes, it means that in most cases with SCA armor you can only expect to be able to pull one over on those who don't know any different.
On the other hand, SCA armor by nature has to be durable, and in a lot of cases that's what lends the "neariod" look to it. Since construction methods and materials differ, authenticity is sacrificed for safety. Mild steel is used in lieu of hardened steel, which means that it has to be a lot thicker. Also, modern techniques are used in its production, so it's difficult to get the feel of authentic armor. However, you won't be banging many dents out of it.
Then there's the third option, which is truly authentic gear. This comes with its own set of problems.
First there's the fact that nobody I know of is making it in production quantities. It is very time intensive and requires a skill set beyond that of the average armorer.
Compare an average raised helm with an SCA helm. All the reports I keep hearing is that it takes people that are just starting to do it over 100 hours of labor to make one helm. Let's be real generous and say that an experienced person would take 40 hours. That's still a week's gross income for an armorer, and it's still about 4 times more than an SCA helm would take.
So we get to the second problem, cost. A week's gross pay to cover your head... which is somewhere around 15% of the area you're trying to cover.
Third is the fact that if it gets dented, and you don't know what to do about it, you're pretty hosed. Since it's hardened, you can't just go banging it back into shape without risking cracking it in half.
I guess my suggestion would be to go with SCA armor, since it'll put up with what you want to do.
To actually answer a couple of your questions:
Flutes make the armor stronger. They're not crumple zones, they're reenforcing ridges. It's the same concept as I-beams.
If you're fit and can cope with the added weight, there's no reason to not be able to do somersaults in armor. The whole "crane to get you in your saddle" thing is a myth.
Believe it or not, pretty much all of the injuries I've seen in the SCA have been lower leg injuries. Well, I'm not counting the moderate cuts to the forehead from badly padded helms, and I'm not counting big horse- kick bruises: I'm only counting the bad stuff.
It's most important to have a good balance in your armor, and to know how to move in it. If you've been sitting around for a week or two, then get into armor and step the wrong way once and end up out of balance, you could do some serious ankle damage just from the extra weight.
It also helps to not have a metric ton of flesh fall on your lower leg.
Hope this rambling helps
HELMUT
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Konstantin the Red
- Archive Member
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- Location: Port Hueneme CA USA
"Munitions grade" is one-size-fits-most, and minus the extras. Medievally, you'd see gear rough-from-the-hammer rather than what they called a "glazed" polish, and frequently painted to boot. Quite a bit of SCA gear is distinctly munitions-grade. Really obvious period munitions gear is mostly found in the 16th and 17th centuries, when there was a push for that sort of thing.
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"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."
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"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."