13th Century Clothing Help

[RenJunkie]

Well, due to financial....stuff....I need to go with an earlier, simpler period of clothing. Will be a while before I can afford to do my uber-spiff middle 16thC Saxon impression. Can't afford to buy those expensive clothes. My wife refuses to even attempt anything post 1300. So, I need to go with something my wife can (read *will*) make. And I hate sewing, so no, I'm not dedicated enough to the impression to try it myself. And Pluderhosen isn't a grand starter project.

So, where does one get accurate patterns for clothing in the 1275-1280 range? I'll look into both English and the HRE (Bohemia/ Saxe-Wittenberg). Not nobility. Just a civilian. Altho, I do archery, so maybe I should lean towards someone who would have a bow.

Closely related, is there a significant difference in clothing styles between England and the S-W/Bohemia areas during the given timeframe? Where can I find examples? The Mac Bible is a bit early, but would it's styles still be regularly seen (outside of the knightly classes) in the 1270's? And does the Mac work for all England and the HRE? Or better for someone else?

I suppose I can drop the decades down to the Mac period if I'm not seeing a lit of period visuals for the 1275-1280 time frame.

Guess I'll do this as best I can till I start getting able to do my original idea.

Gonna look odd on a rapier field, tho....I'll think of something.

Thanks!
Christopher

[Luca Sogliano]

Try to see if you can get your hands on a copy of the Medieval Tailor's Assistant (most likely available at your local Laurel). What you're looking for is in there, I believe.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

For HRE I'd suggest looking at the Codex Manesse, c. 1310 or so (for completion). Most of the clothing styles and even the arms and armor depicted in its many images will be suitable for the late 13th century. I'm personally doing a rather hodge-podge 13th century German impression these days, as I try to narrow things down by getting my arms and armor organized...

[img]http://www.adelinas-welt.de/assets/images/Codex_Manesse_Heinrich_von_Meissen__Frauenlob_.jpg[/img]

[Karen Larsdatter]

Ditto on the recommendation for The Medieval Tailor's Assistant.

If you absolutely need paper patterns, I think your best bet is this one from La Fleur De Lyse.

There's some additional helpful links at http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/wsnlinks/i ... &catid=284

You might also like to look at the photos of 13th century re-enactment groups at http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/wsnlinks/i ... &catid=358

If you're looking for examples of what people were wearing c. 1275-1280, here's a few places to look:

• The Murthly Hours
• On the Books of Hours page, scroll down to the psalter listed as ÖNB 1898
• There's a few manuscripts from this period at the Morgan Library; use Corsair to find M.729 or M.98
• http://www.kb.nl/manuscripts/advanced has a few manuscripts in this era (you can narrow a search by years, there, but you might like to look at KB 76 J 18 for starters)
• The Life of St. Louis, available through Mandragore; input Latin 10525 in the line marked "Cote," then click "Chercher," then click "Images"
• The Cantigas de Santa Maria
• The Life of Edward the Confessor is a few years earlier than what you're looking for, but look at it anyway, so there
• Likewise, the Livre d'images de Madame Marie is just a wee bit later than what you're looking at, but it's worth a looky-loo; at Mandragore, search for Nouvelle acquisition française 16251

[RenJunkie]

Greg, you look positively spiffing!

Are those musicians wearing livery, or is that just fashionable for musicians in the HRE?

Any other period images out there from the timeframe? Since my impression isn't the wealthy, images from 1255 on should be good, yes?

I shall look into the Tailor's assistant.

Thanks!
Christopher

[Luca Sogliano]

That picture is the SCA in a nutshell. One guy in fantastic looking stuff, with a yahoo in jeans and a t-tunic (with the mandatory ye-olde tankard) just behind. I love the SCA, but I can't exactly say I wouldn't have it any other way.

ETA: I have been told the pic is from a Renn Fest. I didn't mean any sort of harsh judgment by this, I once owned pajama pants too...

[RenJunkie]

Thanks, Karen! Guess I was typing when you posted that...lol. This should keep me busy for a few hours.

After a cursory glance, it's looking to me like there is not a great deal of change until almost the turn of the 14th. Some change, but nothing too dramatic. I will say, apparently Spanish musicians dressed very well.

Thanks for the pattern link. I'll almost certainly need them. My wife is uber-resistant to pattern making as well. But at least I should be able to talk her into this time frame fairly easy. Hopefully we won't need help up-sizing them to fit me.

Thanks!
Christopher

[Karen Larsdatter]

I will say, apparently Spanish musicians dressed very well.

You could also look at the Libro de Juegos for more like this.

(This and the Cantigas are sort of graphic representations of a period of Spain that we call the Convivencia, so you'll see Muslims and Jews and Christians in various illustrations; see A Vanished World: Muslims, Christians, and Jews in Medieval Spain or Convivencia: Jews, Muslims, and Christians in Medieval Spain for more on this.)

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Are those musicians wearing livery, or is that just fashionable for musicians in the HRE?

Thanks for the compliment, Christopher.

The musicians are most likely wearing livery, and they are probably in fact all supposed to be minstrels. The Codex Manesse is a collection of mostly 13th century German poetry, and the artistic depictions are mostly considered to be rather fanciful displays of the various poets, patrons and ladies that have some part to play in the various works. Many of the poets are depicted as warriors and given coats of arms in the manuscript either to personify their roles in the poems they have written as heroes doing deeds for ladies, etc... Or there may be some who in fact were also soldiers and their historic heraldry is displayed with them. We cannot be sure!

-Gregory

[James B.]

Christopher

Four gore tunics are fairly universal until the late 14th century and easy to sew: http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... ktunc.html

The hem can fall anywhere from just above the knee to the ankle for men when you look at artwork in your time range.

Many also wear a second over tunic. Some have a slit in the front gore. Some have sleeves that are only attached at the top of the armseye so you can put go without the second layer over your arms, you can see an example here from the Maciejowski bible 1250:

[img]http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images/maciejowski/leaf45/otm45rc&d.gif[/img]

Capes and small hoods are also becoming fashionable in this period.

[Karen Larsdatter]

Are those musicians wearing livery, or is that just fashionable for musicians in the HRE?

I think, in some cases, illustrators show musicians and performers in some slightly unusual clothing -- in this case, striped -- whether that's a cultural thing, a local thing, something common in that time period, it's hard to say. Or even if it's just the illustrator thinking, "Gosh, that'd be fancy."

I've collected several examples at http://larsdatter.com/musicians.htm -- there's an odd sort of long dagging on some of the musicians in the Maciejowski Bible, for example, and there's also the particolored/patterned clothing on the musicians in the knighting of St. Martin.

I'm not sure it's really "livery," per se (though certainly, if the clothing was given as partial payment for services rendered, then it could be considered "livery," right?) but isn't meant to indicate an ongoing service/fealty/whatever relationship to a particular individual.

Many of the poets are depicted as warriors and given coats of arms in the manuscript either to personify their roles in the poems they have written as heroes doing deeds for ladies, etc... Or there may be some who in fact were also soldiers and their historic heraldry is displayed with them. We cannot be sure!

There's a really nifty article at http://www.armorial.dk/german/Manesse.pdf that provides a "who's who" and addresses possible sources for the heraldry.

[Konstantin the Red]

That picture is the SCA in a nutshell. One guy in fantastic looking stuff, with a yahoo in jeans and a t-tunic (with the mandatory ye-olde tankard) just behind. I love the SCA, but I can't exactly say I wouldn't have it any other way.

ETA: I have been told the pic is from a Renn Fest. I didn't mean any sort of harsh judgment by this, I once owned pajama pants too...

Aye... we do struggle so with the footgear.

Pajama pants/beach pants as pseudo-Celt are still durn attractive on hot muggy days... pure-quill, full-thickness woolen Euro-stuffs are better adapted for expected highs of a drizzly fifty-two degrees on Herr Doktor Fahrenheit's scale. Which is every bit as out of period as the centigrade one, devised first and named Celsius later.

[brewer]

I'm of course going to recommend Reconstructing History's patterns.

NB: The following is very, very general.

The basic look doesn't change much until things start to get more and more fitted in C14. So you can feel justified using something like the Kragelundor MoselundTunics as a starting point. From there you can use the stuff in our 14th-C Men's Accessories pattern to get the other fabric bits.

If you want a kit-in-a-bag pattern, we have one: RH004. It's got everything you need but shoes and a belt - braies, shirt, tunic (simplified Kragelund), coifs, hood.

Making it truly 1280 will be a function of the accessories, as the "tunic and leggings" shape doesn't change all that dramatically. The right shoes, the right belt, the right pouch - that's gonna make or break the impression.

RH004 will get you the fabric bits you need. The rest is up to you!

Cheers,

Bob

[RenJunkie]

I love the dags on that Mac musician.

Ok, so I got a fairly good idea of the clothy bits. Now, the shoes. Does anyone make 13th century shoes, or am I gonna have to do it meslef?

Thanks!
Christopher

[Karen Larsdatter]

Does anyone make 13th century shoes, or am I gonna have to do it meslef?

Bunch of places to look, including Dru Shoemaker, Medieval Design, and Meister Knieriem. (There's also some nice ones at Plantagenet, but quite pricy.)

I suspect that a fairly basic turnshoe will be quite suitable for the 13th century; so you could also check out offerings at Armlann, Revival Clothing, and Revival.us.

It is kind of a case of educating your eyeball -- you can look at 13th century illustrations to get an idea of the shape you're looking for, and books like Shoes and Pattens or Stepping Through Time to understand how they go together (especially if you do want to make them yourself).

If you're going to Pennsic, it's a darned good opportunity to try on a lot of the various pre-made options and see what actually fits you. Check out the websites in advance for ideas of the styles you like, and to get a rough idea of how much spending money you'll want to set aside for a good pair of shoes. (Of the above links, I think Dru Shoemaker and Armlann and the Revival companies typically can be found at Merchant's Row at Pennsic, and there's also some nice shoes at Historic Enterprises too.)

[RenJunkie]

Thanks for the links!

Ok, so pointy toed or flat toed either should work. Because I like Dru's 13thC model, but can't lay down that kind of money for the shoes. I think I'm gonna have to with Revival (one of them) or Bohemond due to cost. Tho, I am a bit hesitant to use Bohemond . I have a pair of his Mary Rose shoes, and they are THIN. And the turnshoes are only about an ounce heavier.

Maybe I'll just dabble in the making of a pair.

Thanks!
Christopher

[James B.]

Dru's boots come to a point on the sole; most turn shoes have a point at the toe. The point just isn't exaggerated so there is more roundness around the toe area.

[RenJunkie]

Huh, I guess it does. Its just so broad, I didn't notice....

James, those shoes you taught in your classes, are those kosher for mid-13th?

Thanks!
Christopher

[James B.]

Turn shoe making is the same from the 10th century until the 16th only the patterns change. There are varied techniques but I taught the most common.

[Charlotte J]

So, where does one get accurate patterns for clothing in the 1275-1280 range? I'll look into both English and the HRE (Bohemia/ Saxe-Wittenberg). Not nobility. Just a civilian. Altho, I do archery, so maybe I should lean towards someone who would have a bow.

The best part about this period is that patterns are pretty redundant. It all depends on your measurements and the width of the fabric that you're working with in order to get the most out of the least amount of fabric. Rectangular construction for the win!

Any of the Nockert Type 1 constructions will get you the basic look:
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... type1.html

Like the Bocksten that James posted.

I used to use this website for my measurements and layouts:
http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/artic ... UNICS.HTML

I haven't used it in a bit so maybe there's some mistakes here and there, but when I was just starting out it was fantastically easy.

[RenJunkie]

Actually it was the pattern I was asking about If it would be right for the 13th as well as the 14th. Or did the shoes change that much?

Thanks for linkies, Charlotte! I think my wife will be able to pattern these. Yay!

Thanks!
Christopher

[James B.]

Actually it was the pattern I was asking about If it would be right for the 13th as well as the 14th. Or did the shoes change that much?

If I gave you a pattern it would be based on a find that is good for 14th/15th but not be the same for 13th. However not many folks would know that.

[Adriano]

I've had good luck with the St. Louis tunic pattern. Easy to sew, economical of fabric, and it looks good.

[RenJunkie]

But I would. So, I guess I just gotta wait for Stepping Through Time to show up at the library. And Shoes and pattens to show up at the other (Williamsburg only lets me ILL one at a time).

If I gave you a pattern it would be based on a find that is good for 14th/15th but not be the same for 13th. However not many folks would know that.

.

Thanks for the link, Adriano. I didn't even know about that part of Kass's site.

Thanks!
Christopher