As Men Really Fought!

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 3:58 pm

They held this tournament at Pennsic, with different ways to win bouts. Counted blows, submission, taking them to the ground, and "showing them the door" (throwing them out of the list).

Trevor won!

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 5:02 pm

What were the rules? Sounds like it could be fun if done right.
Vebrand

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:18 am

Also, thrusting to the armpits or face would be a victory.

I assume that normal SCA legal target areas.

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 12:33 pm

loads of fun, next year perhaps I won't have to forfeit two matches due to eq. failure.

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:02 pm

Having fought in a few of the tournies, and watched at least part of a couple others in the series, I have to say that this was the coolest one. Watching people fight and grapple honorably to submission was incredible. Next time I'll try to stay on my feet and in bounds longer.

The entire seires was awsome. I hope to see more of this in the future.

Jacob

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SCA: Edric of Scardeburc
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jselmer/

"Those who look upon a collection of Ancient Armour as a mere assemblage of curiosities have formed a very inadequate idea of its purpose and usefulness."
J. Hewitt
Catalogue of the Tower Armouries, 1859

Prince Of Darkmoor · Post by **Prince Of Darkmoor** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 2:03 pm

It was quite the fun tourney and I felt right at home, although I'm disappointed that I had a pretty mediocre performance. Throwing people to the ground doesn't take a lot of skill or effort when you're my size and I hoped to put on a better show, but oh well. Especially after some of the hype Asbjorn and Murdock were talking about "this monster from the West who was going to crush us"

There were some very well executed throws resulting in loud thuds and some very clean blows. TONS of honor and chivalry on the field as well. That was especially nice to see. Even after the tourney was over and Trevor won, a lot of us had fights just for fun.

I think everyone should participate in this tourney and hope to bring my Swordsman back with me next year to compete.

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 2:06 pm

I missed it -- when did it happen? The whole Friday schedule got so shifted... Glad to hear you all had fun.
I can't believe I managed to miss PoD the whole of Pennsic!

-Dmitriy

paladin11 · Post by **paladin11** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:06 pm

How Real Men Fought was hands down the BEST combat I have ever seen.

I was practically jumping up and down. Everyone I fight with is going to work this format once or twice into our fight practices. It is a TON of fun.

There is a slight danger if you did not know or trust your opponent and I only hope people keep their heads and judgement sharp while attempting tosses though.

Keep it safe!

Tristan d'Elsmere

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 4:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dmitriy:
I missed it -- when did it happen? The whole Friday schedule got so shifted... Glad to hear you all had fun.
I can't believe I managed to miss PoD the whole of Pennsic!

-Dmitriy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

POD, you planning of attending the next Estrella?

Halvgrimr

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 5:31 pm

Oh man was it a blast

and all i got to do was a bit of pick up with the winner.

Got thrown twice, really didn't expect that. i'd never actually been leg swept that way in armour, did'nt hurt a bit.

Trevor really knocked me round.

And everybody greeve for POD, his shield died.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:08 pm

I have to say that this tournament was, regardless of the win, the highlight of my Pennsic. Not only was the fighting way cool, but meeting folks from the Archive and getting to know them better was absolutely tops.

It also has generated a bit of buzz around some of the fighters in Calontir, so I hope that there will be more fights like this to come.

In the future, I would suggest that the counted blows be used instead of "submission". Given the weapons and armor used, "submission" usually meant "wrasslin'" because the weapons didn't come into play almost at all.

THe best part of the fighting for me was that you could really use different means to achieve victory. If your opponent was trying to win by counted blows, you could throw him. If your opponent was trying to win by throwing you, you could disarm him. If your opponent was trying to disarm you, you could, "show him the gate". Etc. REally kept you on your toes because you didn't know what to expect.

Also, reading the fechtbuchs before was really inspirational. It was SO GREAT to be able to try the same moves used hundreds of years ago!

Thanks to Asbjorn and Murdock for putting on a great tournament. I consider you both friends, and look forward to seeing you in the future.

Trevor

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Tue Aug 20, 2002 8:16 am

That reminds me Trevor,

I supose i owe you a ransom. Should have paid it there.

Email me your mailing addy.

paladin11 · Post by **paladin11** » Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:14 am

Yes! Murdock did a great job at the tournament.

I think his Lady wife was also Mistress of the Lists.

I had a nightmare last night of a large mace-wielding guy with a barbute coming after me.

Great to meet you Murdock!

Tristan

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Tue Aug 20, 2002 9:56 pm

Murdock,

No ransom is necessary. I thouroughly enjoyed the challenge that a worthy fighter such as yourself put me to. I had a great fight, and we were both grinning from ear to ear afterwards, as I recall.

That being said, if you feel that your honor is still not satisfied, then I will not refuse you.

Unfortunately, I can not figure out how to access your email addy off this board. Here's mine:

TrevorClemons@msn.com

Trevor

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:45 am

Trevor, excellent job with the throws. They were well excecuted and fun to watch instead of just football tackles. I dont even know how exactly you got me. I was fighting when all of the sudden *THUD!* the sky was in front of me.

Great fun. I'd love to do it again next year.

Jacob (SCA: Edric)

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:47 am

Trevor from the long-dead St. Gabriel crew? I hope it's the same guy! Well done, regardless.
-Vitus

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Wed Aug 21, 2002 11:27 am

perhaps next year the victory condition pertaining driving your opponent to the ground should state that you must remain standing yourself. Might allieviate some of the mutual fall downs.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:12 pm

Heck I know how he threw me and i still could'nt stop him.

It was a simple elegant inside kick sweep with a little push.

With most takedowns it's very hard to not go down too. The armour makes you kinda top heavy.

And whats with the _big_ mace weilding guy in the dreams. I'm a widdle fella. ;P

mrks · Post by **mrks** » Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:46 pm

hey I fought in the 1st 2 rounds but was too worried about the allied champions battle to be totally serious. many compliments the my submission opponent. an eastern squire with a great on field attitude.

wish it was double elim but that might make the tourney run to long.

sadly missed the archive gathering as there were over 20 new people in our camp including our king and only one other pennsic vet besides myself. had a very busy war being camp dad.

anyway I was the guy who wondered over and looked like this: [img]http://tiarmour.com/warrior%20mark2.jpg[/img]

thanks for the great series. cant wait until next year.

mrks
tiarmour.com

[This message has been edited by mrks (edited 08-21-2002).]

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Wed Aug 21, 2002 12:46 pm

sounds like it was fun. Good work lads!
-Mag

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Wed Aug 21, 2002 7:28 pm

I have to admit that I felt like I was a little in a "gray area" when I threw an opponent, when I ended up going down, too.

Though technically, I wasn't touching the ground with anything other than the soles of my feet...the rest of me was resting on my opponent. I wonder how this was resolved in medieval tournaments?

I am inclined to say that a thrown opponent isn't at a disadvantage until he is set upon, which necessitates going down after him.

I also have to say that it is much more difficult to wrestle in armor, and it is a lot harder to pull a reversal on your opponent if he is on top of you. Probably why it was considered a victory if you throw an opponent because, more than likely, he would be doomed without help.

PS-Edric-thanks for the fight and the compliment-it was a blast.

PPS-yes Vitus, it's me.

Congratulations, Sir Knight.

[This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 08-21-2002).]

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Aug 22, 2002 12:50 am

mrks,

You throw a hell of a fast and hard off side leg. Wish i could snap it like that.

I think the guy you fought was Geoffery The younger. Probably squiered to Balin or Kelson.

mrks · Post by **mrks** » Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:46 am

LOL

pretty easy to get that leg/offside when you can let the other guy pound your 10 1/2lb 12ga helmet or Ti harness.

that fight was very interesting. in a way we were just palling around while pounding each other. kind of a fight club mentality. respecting each other in just being there. to actually try for submission would mean hitting skin over and over and I dont think that was the goal of the tourney.

I could see heavy hitters(knights) competing and beating the crud out of people. even guys as heavily armoured as I am would be hard pressed to go a submission round with a guy like my current king. he was very interested when I told him about it and scolded me for not telling him earlier.

I definitely want to try it again when I get the chance.

mrks

Sixtus_Goetz · Post by **Sixtus_Goetz** » Thu Aug 22, 2002 9:02 am

Greetings everyone, glad you all had fun at what sounds like an outstanding tourney. I have a question, with grappling and such against the SCA Corpora. How was this circumvented to be allowed to have said tourney at a sactioned event?

Looking over his shield as not to get flamed TOO badly.

Saranac Goetz

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:06 am

Glad everyone had a good time.

I think Trevor did an incredible job fighting, but Iâ€™m thinking about tweaking the rules a bit so the â€œdouble dropâ€

Prince Of Darkmoor · Post by **Prince Of Darkmoor** » Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Consider that the only yield I recall occurring was when POD broke his shield and didnâ€™t continue because he was concerned with his opponents safety.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sort of. As you might remember (don't know where you were when this happened) there was a break in the action earlier in that fight where I admitted to my opponent that I was not properly counting blows and that he had hit me twice. Right before my shield broke I got hit on the leg which would have been his 5th blow on me but I was so concerned with my shield that I didn't think about counting that leg shot. As I was about to borrow someone's gear to fight, I remembered that he got his 5th shot in, so I apologized again for not counting the blow and acknowledged that he had beaten me. This was the first time that I had ever fought with counted blows so I wasn't calling blows very well. I got too focused on my offense and wasn't thinking about the fact that I kept feeling something hit me in the leg and head...

Heh, those watching on the sideline probably thought I was some sort of numbed-up rhino

To warn the populace, and remind myself not to do it again, I have purchased a magnet which I am going to superglue to my helmet that says "Warning - Rhino Hiding"

There was one yielding that happened after the tourney between two combatants (whose names escape me). One had received several very stout and clean blows to the head and cheerfully yielded.

------------------
"How about 'No', you crazy Dutch bastard!"
Salinas Swordsman
Darkmoor Armoury

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Thu Aug 22, 2002 2:00 pm

This just adds to my list of reasons I'm bummed that I missed Pennsic this year. You guys are an inspiration and I hope to join you next year.

Morgan

Sixtus_Goetz · Post by **Sixtus_Goetz** » Thu Aug 22, 2002 4:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Asbjorn Johansen:
Glad everyone had a good time.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Depths_of_Mind:
Greetings everyone, glad you all had fun at what sounds like an outstanding tourney. I have a question, with grappling and such against the SCA Corpora. How was this circumvented to be allowed to have said tourney at a sactioned event?

Looking over his shield as not to get flamed TOO badly.

Saranac Goetz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pennsic is a special case, for years there have been tournaments there that have allowed grappling explicitly â€“all those Tuchuck charity tourneyâ€™s â€“ and no one has stopped it, its kind of a gray area, but I tried to make sure everyone was clear about what was going on before hand (The Pennsic War rules allow variances for specific tourneys, I admit I was very liberal in my interpretation). I don't think I ever explicitly said that grappling was ok, I just asked if folks that if they wanted to do something outside to the SCA norms, they should talk to their opponents about it. Most folks seemed to like stepping outside the norms. If I ran this a another event, Iâ€™d have to explicity limit the moves available, unless I received express permission from a kingdom Earl Marshal (The anti grappling policies arenâ€™t in Corpa but the Marshalâ€™s Handbook).

The interesting thing is how you define grappling or wrestling:

From the Marshallâ€™s Handbook:

3. Wrestling with or grappling the opponent, to include grasping the opponentâ€™s torso, limbs, shield, or weaponâ€™s striking surface, blade, or head is prohibited.

My reading of this says that as long as you donâ€™t grab an opponent with your hands, you can push, shove and entangle a limb all you like. If I ran this tourney else where Iâ€™d specifically use East Kingdoms rather open polices, and just say that as long as you donâ€™t grab your opponent or his shield, do what you like.

My only major concern where the leg sweeps that were being used, Iâ€™m vaguely concerned with that a large fan might scissor the back of someoneâ€™s knee, which would suck, anyone out there want to do some careful experiments and report back?

[This message has been edited by Asbjorn Johansen (edited 08-22-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Asbjorn Johansen (edited 08-22-2002).][/QUOTE]

Fair enough for me. And thanks for not taking a torch to me

Sarnac Goetz

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Thu Aug 22, 2002 5:11 pm

It was a very good question, and I reserve torches for special people, like Regional Marshals who don't know the rules or silly SCA traditions that compromise authenticity.

Asbjorn

Constancius · Post by **Constancius** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 4:16 pm

That sounds lke something that I could easily get into. Too bad I couldn't make it to Pennsic. I'll have to see if some of the guys a FP want to try something like it. Sounds like too much fun to resist.

------------------
Constancius of Lincolnshire

animis corporibusque

WaaaghBoss · Post by **WaaaghBoss** » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:22 pm

I WILL make it to Pensic next year because I HAVE to be in this tourney. Being new to fighting, I don't expect to win, just to show off my new harness ( crossing fingers that it will be done by then!) and to see all the great kits. Not to mention meeting great people and beating them with sticks! :-)