Help with 11th cen armour!

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 9:32 am

I am going to make an 11th cen kit to wear during the beastly hot summers here on the mississippi gulf coast and surrounding areas. My 14th cen stuff gets just too hot. I am currently looking for a chain mail hauberk. Until I get one, what can I do to achieve the 11th century look and be SCA legal?

Cris Fortescu

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 12:01 pm

I think that a quilted garment cut like a Hauberk would probably be appropriate. Some of the figures in the Bayeux tapestry are shown wearing what seem to be such garments. Hide plates undereath it where necessary, just like you'll be doing with the mail. Don't know if this will be an improvement in heat retention though if you stick to natural fabrics and don't make it too thick you'll probably be OK.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 1:47 pm

If you still have what i think you have in your rig it's not the period it's the materials.

Poly batting will fry you down here, and the plastic plates in your brig arent't helping.
Go with natural fibers, specificaly linnen, and dump as much polymer based stuff out of everything else that you can.

Also what kinda garb are you fighting in? that may also be part of the prob.

With the big long 11th C gambeson you'll be hotter than you are now.

Email me and Kate, we'll give you as much advice as we have on the linnen armming clothes, and sources for the stuff.

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Mon Sep 09, 2002 1:58 pm

I agree with every thing above. My old transitional metal plates rivited inside of the leather was a lot lighter and cooler than my gambeson and mail I am now wearing.
I am ok with what I have, since I did not quilt in a bunch of synthetic crap. BTW, I fight in high humidity and heat as well.

Arti

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 8:56 am

LINEN! WOOL! COTTON TOW!
Natural stuff breathes so you don't drop.
Last year at a tourney I dropped of heat exhaustion wearing no natural materials, all poly blends.
This year I fought for two hours straight in all linen and wool no problems.
(Of course working out and getting into shape helped too.

)

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 1:44 pm

Being in Mississippi I would wear this if I were you:

1) Braies made of linen.
2) Hosen made of linen, wool for cold days.
3) A linen under-tunic.
4) A linen over-tunic, or wool for cold days. Both with trim.
5) A linen aketon filled with linen tow. Aketons lace up in the back.

Only use 100% linen and wool.

Now it is debated whether or not Europeans used aketons in the 11th century but most fighting groups use them anyway.

Wear a CoP under the aketon until you get your chainmaille. A trick to hide the elbows and shoulder cops would be to cover them in the same cloth as your aketon is made of and tie them on to the aketon with points. Then wear your maille over top.

For linen fabric go here: http://fabrics-store.com

For linen tow go here: http://www.earthguild.com/products/spinning/spnatfib.htm

For a good hosen pattern get the La Fleur de Lyses pattern. Get it here: http://dragonflydesignstudio.com/index.html

My Norman outfit is for Living History and not SCA combat but you can see it here: http://www.angelfire.com/va3/flonzy/norman.html

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 8:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by flonzy:


My Norman outfit is for Living History and not SCA combat but you can see it here: http://www.angelfire.com/va3/flonzy/norman.html

Flonzy

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oooh, who's a pretty boy, then? Does this mean you'll be with us at Hastings 2005/2006/whenever in the UK?

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Egfroth

"I can hear the word money from a distance of fifty miles, if the wind's in the right direction"

Major Dennis Bloodnok, Queen's Forty-Third Deserters (retd.)

see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 8:03 am

Egfroth

It would be vary cool to be at the next Hastings battle in the UK. Checking out pictures of the 2000 Hastings in the UK is one of the resons I got into making better garb and going for authenticity instead of the American ren faire made up look.

I am working hard to get all my gear in order for the Hastings battlere here in Maryland. I hope to have as much gear as you got one day Egfroth

.

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 5:22 pm

Flonzy,

Is there anything I can help with? I've picked up the odd reference or two over the years.

You might laos want to get onto the Hastings 2000+ mailing list - you can subscribe at Hastings-subscribe@smartgroups.com - its discussions can be very interesting and worthwhile, though it seems to have gone a bit quiet of late (people busy getting their gear together, I guess).

Have you been using steel or rattan so far? If rattan, no problem; several SCA guys were at the last one and took part - obviously a certain amount of preparation needed to overcome rattan-based reflexes, but by no means impossible.

Have fun at the Maryland thing. We're not doing anything to commemorate Hastings here in Oz, as far as I know, and the US is just too far away for the time being. Maybe next year . . .

------------------
Egfroth

"I can hear the word money from a distance of fifty miles, if the wind's in the right direction"

Major Dennis Bloodnok, Queen's Forty-Third Deserters (retd.)

see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Sun Sep 15, 2002 3:16 pm

Egfroth

Could use a little advice on one thing. I am making a maille bib (for lack of a better term) to cover my face. How do they properly attach to the ring shirt?

Thanks
Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:58 pm

Flonzy; Funny you should ask. I just happen to have written an article on the subject - or did you already know that?

However, it's really impossible to give a definitive answer to your question. I believe the bib was laced on, with each lace passing through a few rings of the hauberk, and through the big rings at the corners of the bib (if that's what those blobs really indicate - however, the Bayeux tapestry is the only source to show these blobs as far as I've found - see the pics in the article. It's quite possible to put your laces through a few of the rings at each corner of the bib instead).

As far as the top fastening, at the face, is concerned; if you want to cover the bottom of your face, you would be well advised to use hooks rather than laces. The laces have too much flexibility - they move under the weight of the ventail, and it ends up under your chin instead. A friend of mine used hooks, which worked well.

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Egfroth

"I can hear the word money from a distance of fifty miles, if the wind's in the right direction"

Major Dennis Bloodnok, Queen's Forty-Third Deserters (retd.)

see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

[This message has been edited by Egfroth (edited 09-15-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Egfroth (edited 09-15-2002).]

Raibeart Lok De la Haye · Sun Sep 15, 2002 7:57 pm

Egfroth.

Thank you for the link. I just picked up a Norman chest square thingy for my maille, and needed some pointers on putting it all together.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 3:53 am

Happy to be of service. If you have any questions I might be able to help with, feel free to ask.

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Egfroth

"I can hear the word money from a distance of fifty miles, if the wind's in the right direction"

Major Dennis Bloodnok, Queen's Forty-Third Deserters (retd.)

see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 9:40 am

Egfroth

Forgot that was on your website

. I need to rool some more links and get to work on the bib soon.

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

http://www.angelfire.com/va3/flonzy

Raibeart Lok De la Haye · Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:19 pm

I've asked this before, but didn''t get a response, (and/or forgot where I posted it) ??????? It's known as a "Raibeartism".
I was at the Cleveland museum and saw hauberks with straps and buckles, some up the side, some in the front, some around the neck opening, and some with some really thin links. Whats the earlyest I can get away with any of that?
But they didn't have a printout about the maille, and the "Jag" watching me, making sure I didn't touch the presious glass had no "Feakinng" (Joe Pecci voice here) clue.
Question's
For early Danish/Norman, late Pict, (850's-950;s) would I have the bib? Mine is 7"X9" trimmed in leather, and fastened with flower looking vervelles upside down, so when I put it up to the Ocular helm it's ......pretty. Is that close enough I've seen 'em bigger and smaller at the English Hastings battle last years. TI pics.
Do I split it up the front or sides?
Must the coif be intregal to the hauberk?
Sleeve length?
Mittens?
Just front Chouses, ie, laced up the back? full feet, top feet, no feet?
Would it be way off to sew it directly to a twill tunic, or light leather as a "lining"?
I putting it all together pre Gulf War's and want to be spiff.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Mon Sep 16, 2002 6:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Raibeart Lok De la Haye:
I've asked this before, but didn''t get a response, (and/or forgot where I posted it) ??????? It's known as a "Raibeartism".
I was at the Cleveland museum and saw hauberks with straps and buckles, some up the side, some in the front, some around the neck opening, and some with some really thin links. Whats the earlyest I can get away with any of that?

Honestly, I'd have to be a lot surer about the provenance of these items before I could say with any confidence that they were reliable. All sounds a bit Hollywood to me. I believe there are some Russian examples with buckles, but in general, the hauberk seems to have just slipped over the head like a (heavy) t-shirt.

Question's
For early Danish/Norman, late Pict, (850's-950;s) would I have the bib? 

Sorry, I've never found any evidence for it earlier than the middle of the 11th century.

Mine is 7"X9" trimmed in leather, and fastened with flower looking vervelles upside down, so when I put it up to the Ocular helm it's ......pretty.

Sounds nice, but unfortunately I've never seen any evidence of the bib in combination with an "ocular" helmet (we call them spectacle helms where I come from). Aventails - even all-around mail curtains (a' la the "Sigurd helm" (Valsgarde helm 8 at http://www.missouri.edu/~rls555/SCA/research/helms/valsgarde.htm ) seem to be more likely.

Is that close enough I've seen 'em bigger and smaller at the English Hastings battle last years. 

I'd go by the Bayeux Tapestry and other contemporary pics - there are plenty of examples in my bib article - rather than what you've seen other re-enactors do - they're as much in the dark as you and I, and basing their reconstructions on those very same pics. I had issues with the size of some of the "bibs" at Hastings 2000.

Do I split it up the front or sides?

What, the hauberk? Most of them in the 11th century have front and rear splits from what we can make out from contemporary pics, but there's a Frankish reliquary in the Osprey "The Age of Charlemagne" book (disregard the colour plates, and be suspicious of the text, but the photos of original artefacts are worthwhile) from mid 11th with a side split (p38)and the Lombardic horseman on page 6 has his lamellar armour split at the sides.

Osprey reckon that side splits were the way it was worn before about the C11, but I have no idea what they base it on. In all my reading and collecting of contemporary pics over the years, the ones in this book are the only ones I've seen with a side split.

Most show no split, or a front split. Keep in mind that if the hauberk is farly short (as most early ones seem to have been), there's no need for a split anyway.

Must the coif be intregal to the hauberk?

Again, for the period you're talikng about, I've seen no evidence of coifs. It all seems to be aventails - or nothing. The Vendel/Valsgarde helms have these funny metal strips at the back of the helm, but they seem to be out of your period and/or region.

Sleeve length?
To the elbow at a maximum. Have a look at the Frankish guy in Fig. 10 of my Bib article. That is fairly typical for your period. He dates to about 800 AD.

Mittens?
They seem to have fought barehanded in your period of choice - not that I'd recommend that for you. Make some good hand protection that looks as inconspicuous as possible. Perhaps fingered plate gaunts with flesh-coloured fabric covering? I'm going to be experimenting with that shortly.

Just front Chouses, ie, laced up the back? full feet, top feet, no feet?

The earliest chausses I've seen are in the Bayeux tapestry, c. 1070's, and only on Bill the Bastard and his half brother Bishop Odo of Bayeux. So, no chausses if you want to accurately portray your period and region.

Would it be way off to sew it directly to a twill tunic, or light leather as a "lining"?

Is this the hauberk you're talking about? Do you mean sew it on the outside of the tunic? The short answer is no. There were arguments about this matter for many years, (and the French are still arguing) but a very valuable resource is the looting scenes in the Bayeux Tapestry, which show hauberks being pulled off over the heads of dead bodies, inside out, and you can see the ring pattern on the inside of the hauberk. So, no lining.

I putting it all together pre Gulf War's and want to be spiff.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wish you well with it, and I hope I haven't rained on your parade too much. If you really want coif, bib, chausses, can I suggest you move forward to the mid-late 11h century? The only thing is that the ocular helm would probably be out of place with all that stuff.

As an added aside, please note that I've littered my reply with statements like "as far as we know", "the evidence seems to show that . . ." and "I have never seen . . .".

This is a subject full of uncertainties, and much of our knowledge is based on "best-guess" from the evidence available. But the above is[/] best guess, and I think you'll find is pretty close to the way things were (to the best of our knowledge - see? There I go again!)

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Egfroth

"I can hear the word [i]money from a distance of fifty miles, if the wind's in the right direction"

Major Dennis Bloodnok, Queen's Forty-Third Deserters (retd.)

see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

[This message has been edited by Egfroth (edited 09-16-2002).]