Barn door shields (Extracted from Off-topic)

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 1:35 am

Symon Fitz Gilbert said in the off-topic board

I have a question for you, How often do you fight/practice heavy combat and where are you located??? I donâ€™t mean to this to be a slam on you, or imply that your prowess is lacking (Lord knows mine is) but I have always viewed an opponent with a larger â€œbarndoorâ€

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 4:48 am

I think what happens with the barn door shields that the user gets complacent. They "know" you can't hit them in the spots that are covered by the big shield, so they don't defend it as aggressively as needed. This usually applies to the "fair to middlin" level fighter and below. Top level fighters rarely have this problem. I still like my opponents to use big shields because it does seem to limit thier mobility ansd shot selection, allowing me to control the momentum of the fight.
Slainte,
Fearghus

------------------
"How long will we fight? We will fight until hell freezes
over. Then we fight on the ice."
Fearghus's Homepage

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 9:30 am

The smaller the shields, the better. Makes for alot of movement. Entertaining to fight, and interesting to watch.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:17 am

I agree with everything JP said...and what Vitus said to a degree. I don't think big-shield fights are anywhere near as entertaining...in large part because of their lulls.

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vitus:
The smaller the shields, the better. Makes for alot of movement. Entertaining to fight, and interesting to watch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree too

However, I don't go with the dissing of large shield fighter's based on competence (go ahead and dis them for boring fights etc), especially not in my kingdom. We have a whole kingdom who's bread and butter is in making large shields work for them, and they are good at it.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:32 am

When I made the "barn door" size argument it wasn't about its defense, it was about its totally fake look. I was arguing that it is hypocritical to want to remove CA due to authenticity when we have so little on the field and the barn door shields was one of my examples.

Personally I like using a 7ft spear on a barn door fighter. I choke up on the spear shaft and nail the fighters arm when they try to come around for a shot with their sword.

Got to time it just right but it works great.

Flonzy

------------------
Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
http://www.angelfire.com/va3/flonzy

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:36 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by flonzy:
When I made the "barn door" size argument it wasn't about its defense, it was about its totally fake look. I was arguing that it is hypocritical to want to remove CA due to authenticity when we have so little on the field and the barn door shields was one of my examples.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed, but then I wasn't quoting YOU.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Personally I like using a 7ft spear on a barn door fighter. I choke up on the spear shaft and nail the fighters arm when they try to come around for a shot with their sword.

Got to time it just right but it works great.

Flonzy

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, that works on the new ones. The experienced fighters no better... you don't swing until you feel their body...

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 10:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by flonzy:
When I made the "barn door" size argument it wasn't about its defense, it was about its totally fake look.
Flonzy
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How so? Large rectangular and round shields were still in use by infantry in the 16th C.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:16 am

I'll admit right off i fight with a "barn door" shield, at least for now. There are several reason why- I've got less then 6 months experience as a fighter, i wear a complete set of plate in a Canton where plastic is the norm, fight with a 3 1/2 foot crosshilted, 3# sword instead of the light, whippy, 4 foot, plastic baskethilted swords all the other fighters use, and virtually every fighter i face off with at fighter practice is a Knight or senior squire. The closest person in ability to myself has 2 1/2 years doing heavy, and even with my barndoor im lucky if i can last more then 30 seconds against ANY of them. Im also a counter puncher by nature, and i just can't fight aggressively enough to use a small round effectively(believe me, i've tried). For me, it's either use a barn door, or be a mobile pell for much better(and less authenticly armed/armored) fighters, and thats not why i joined the SCA. Yeah, i still lose 90% of the time, but at least my opponents aren't able to kill me before i even throw a blow, which is what happens everytime i try and fight without it.
I'll be more then happy to give up my barndoor when the rest of the fighters give up their plastic armor and ridiculously light swords and madu's that make it impossible for me to fight competitively.

------------------
Otto von Aachen
Kingdom of the Outlands, Canton of Hawks Hollow

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:18 am

Yes but we're supposed to be Nobles not common infantry.

I dislike big shields too. I have one i think is absolutely disgustingly huge, everyone else thinks its average to even small.

I love my buckler, i die more but it's much more fun.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:24 am

Murdock said exactly what I was going to say. Knights didn't use shileds so big. Also Vikings with table tops look silly

Flonzy

------------------
Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
http://www.angelfire.com/va3/flonzy

Symon VanMoordrecht · Post by **Symon VanMoordrecht** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 1:04 pm

Holy Miscommunication Batman!!
::I guess Iâ€™ll have to chalk this up as an object lesson to avoid making broad sweeping statements about armored combat.::

I originally made that statement because one of Flonzieâ€™s big gripes for the past couple of weeks has been about big shields. I ASSUMED, (my first mistake) that there was some sort of combat-related problem. For some fighting against a large shield can be daunting. I merely know a few â€œtricksâ€

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 1:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Symon Fitz Gilbert:
Holy Miscommunication Batman!!
::I guess Iâ€™ll have to chalk this up as an object lesson to avoid making broad sweeping statements about armored combat.::

I originally made that statement because one of Flonzieâ€™s big gripes for the past couple of weeks has been about big shields. I ASSUMED, (my first mistake) that there was some sort of combat-related problem. For some fighting against a large shield can be daunting. I merely know a few â€œtricksâ€

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 5:44 pm

Does this mean I can start carring a period Viking 39" round?? Talk about Barn doors. Yes, I do realize that during challenges Vikings used smaller shields in most cases. Just to say we are not all late period and large shields were used by many cultures.
Vebrand

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 5:49 pm

Yep

Got a fighter in my shire (doesn't make it out much, grad school) who fights with a 34" round. That's the size that comfortably fits under his armpit (yah, I know monkey)...

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 6:48 pm

Yea, like my 6'8" squire who weighs 350lbs. He has arms of a gorilla.
Vebrand

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 12:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by flonzy:
Murdock said exactly what I was going to say. Knights didn't use shileds so big. Also Vikings with table tops look silly

Flonzy

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess it all depends on what size table tops you have at home but I did some quick figuring and:

For comparison, dimensions of pre-Viking shields:

from pagan Anglo-Saxon graves (23 examples) 42 to 92 cm diam. (Dickinson and HÃ¤rke 1992); (16-36 inches)

Thorsberg moorfind, Denmark (7 examples, Roman Iron Age) 65 to 104 cm diam. (Raddatz 1987); (25-40 inches)

VÃ¤lsgarde, Sweden (3 examples, Vendel period) 84 to 110 cm diam. (Arwidsson 1986). (33-43 inches)

Specifics:

Birka grave Bj736, 10th cent, 80 cm (31.5 inches)

Shield from a peat bog at Tirskom, in Latvia, 9th C, 85.5 cm (34 inches)

Shield from Gokstad ship burial, Westfold Norway c.905AD. Diameter 94 cm (Nicolaysen 1882). (37 inches)

these all seem fairly big (and not silly looking) to me

as far as I can tell big sheilds for Viking types are not out of line at all (now one that is as tall as the wielder is ridiculous of course

Halvgrimr

[This message has been edited by Halvgrim (edited 09-25-2002).]

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 12:27 pm

I have read ther were some larger shield in that 40 inch range but 30 or so was most common. I have seen round shilds that were closer to 50 inches in size. I think if I take te leaf out of my talble it is the same size

Flonzy

------------------
Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
http://www.angelfire.com/va3/flonzy

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 1:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by flonzy:
I have read ther were some larger shield in that 40 inch range but 30 or so was most common. I have seen round shilds that were closer to 50 inches in size. I think if I take te leaf out of my talble it is the same size

Flonzy

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

--ive always though 36 was just about right
but i do fight with a smaller shield when i want to really work on honing my defense (at this point the boss is only the really important thing to me, i try to block with it instead of the shield surface area if possible)

Halvgrimr

[This message has been edited by Halvgrim (edited 09-25-2002).]

pavlovsdog · Post by **pavlovsdog** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 8:39 pm

personally, I don't like shields. I'd much rather have another sword. When I do use one, It's a 24" round. It's small, and I can move. I absolutely hate standing still in combat. I've been killed too many times. besides I'm a 130 pound weakling. I couldn't use a barn door if my life depended on it!

Brian

------------------
on a sword:
Extorque removere.
(twist to remove)

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 8:58 pm

Shields? SHIELDS??

I thought everyone used Madu's!?!

(^_^)

[This message has been edited by hjalmr (edited 09-25-2002).]

Torvald · Post by **Torvald** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 12:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Halvgrim:

VÃ¤lsgarde, Sweden (3 examples, Vendel period) 84 to 110 cm diam. (Arwidsson 1986). (33-43 inches)

as far as I can tell big sheilds for Viking types are not out of line at all (now one that is as tall as the wielder is ridiculous of course

Halvgrimr
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cna document a larger shield! my leg thanks you

Torvald
who's now fighting split pole and spear mostly.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Sat Sep 28, 2002 10:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by hjalmr:
Shields? SHIELDS??

I thought everyone used Madu's!?!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone smite him, please.

Constancius · Post by **Constancius** » Sat Sep 28, 2002 1:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vebrand:
Does this mean I can start carring a period Viking 39" round?? Talk about Barn doors. Vebrand <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By all means, it's your death...I mean choice.

I used to fight with a 36"-38" center mount round shield that was dubbed "The Death Star" by the folks in my old Canton. I liked it, but it was ungodly to use at times. It was made from 1/2" plywood and weighed nearly 10 pounds!!!!! Needless to say I have since cut it down to a respectible size and weight.
I was able to document that the size IS period. Now I have to get more lighter ply wood and make it again. I'm thiking 2 layers of 1/4" oughta do it.

------------------
Constancius of Lincolnshire

animis corporibusque

Jean Richard Malcolmson · Sun Sep 29, 2002 12:04 pm

If you want a lighter wooden shield and are willing to spend a little extra money, try using cabinet quality birch. I used 3/8" cabinet quality birch. It cost more and lasts a little less time than standard plywood, but it much lighter. You will probably need to go to a cabinet shop or a cabinetry supply to get it.

Regards,
Jean Richard

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Sun Sep 29, 2002 3:24 pm

IMO the main reason why there are so many big muckin barn doors is t6 aluminum. Ive yet to see a wooden one I couldnt knock all over the place and open up much easier than those aluminum bastards. Im a chin to crotch, shoulder th shoulder heater fighter ( aka heaters and shields in general should not be bigger than that) but here in Ansteorra Ive been doing single sword and estoc pretty much all the time with much better results. since most my opponants have a large shield thats big enoguh to protect us both I figure why should I carry one too? :-)

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Sun Sep 29, 2002 10:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Samuel:
IMO the main reason why there are so many big muckin barn doors is t6 aluminum. Ive yet to see a wooden one I couldnt knock all over the place and open up much easier than those aluminum bastards. Im a chin to crotch, shoulder th shoulder heater fighter ( aka heaters and shields in general should not be bigger than that) but here in Ansteorra Ive been doing single sword and estoc pretty much all the time with much better results. since most my opponants have a large shield thats big enoguh to protect us both I figure why should I carry one too? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sam to echo what Jean Richard said, I have a guy up in my shire here that makes shields out of two layers of 3/16" birch plywood. It allows him to put a nice curve on it, and the weight is very reasonable. Adding shield cover and the things are darn nigh unbreakable. He does them real well. I used his shield, and while it may be a pound heavier than an aluminum one, its just as rigid (and more so on the front corner).

David Blackmane · Post by **David Blackmane** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 6:01 pm

I have a nice chin to knee, shoulder to shoulder kite shield. It's a bit heavy, but I really like it.

------------------
Ich bin der Grund, dass Sie furchten die nacht.