Half-swording

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Sun Sep 29, 2002 4:43 pm

Ok, I've seen now four or five requests for "half-swording" to be allowed. I don't quite understand why though. If at any point in time I grabbe halfway up on my weapon, I shorten it by that much. Why bother? The period reason for half-swording was for an effect thrust through a lightly- or un-armoured part (i.e. armpit) when it was impractical to try to penetrate the armour parts around it. Or to wrestle. It doesn't make a lot of sense in SCA rules to want it beyond the "it will make it more period".

As I type this, I'm reminded of one of the best writing examples of what armour does. Elfquest book 4, when the elves get Two-Edge's armour...

Anyway, help me out and clue me in on why people want this (half-swording) so bad.

Friedrich · Post by **Friedrich** » Sun Sep 29, 2002 5:26 pm

Not being an SCA heavy list fighter, (snubbed and discouraged by local group when I joined), I can't say for sure. However, from working with historical manuals, by allowing half-swording, it would allow the defensive options of parries and pommel strikes.

While we are on the subject (for SCA experienced fighters & marshalls), what's the verdict on sword grabs. IE I intentionally reach over, wrap the guard and take it away from my opponent. Is this permitted?

FvH

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Sun Sep 29, 2002 7:16 pm

Off the top of my head I can think of three things halfswording, or grasping your long sword while using a buckler can do for you in the SCA.

1) Blocking.
2) Better controlled face thrusts.
3) Blocking then thrusting with a greatsword while in close.

Reading Tobler's translation of Ringeck gave me a million great ideas that work great with groups that don't restrict grasping the blade (I have been in and I am in other groups as well as the SCA). It is safe and can be done in the SCA no problem. The restriction on grasping your blade was done with the thought that you would cut your hand, but we all now know this isn't true.

My Question is why not add it? Just because we don't do it now?

Flonzy

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Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Sun Sep 29, 2002 8:23 pm

My reasons for half-swording are because it gives better control for thrusting, but mostly because it's cool.

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Sun Sep 29, 2002 8:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Friedrich:

While we are on the subject (for SCA experienced fighters & marshalls), what's the verdict on sword grabs. IE I intentionally reach over, wrap the guard and take it away from my opponent. Is this permitted?

FvH<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is permitted and I have seen it done many times -however taking away your opponents only weapon in single combat is a mute point since you can't attack an unarmed opponent. This works great in melee's though.

(^_^)

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:54 pm

Fiore says the sword fears the dagger. If you don't understand that statement, you need to hire Bob Charron for a seminar!!!!

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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:12 am

The object in half-swording is the same as choking up on a polearm when you or your opponent has closed. Basicly, it prevents your weapon's length from being used against you. Besides, it's a viable historic technique that can be used safely. Isn't that reason enough?
Slainte,
Fearghus

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[This message has been edited by Fearghus (edited 09-30-2002).]

Gordon the Grey · Post by **Gordon the Grey** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:48 am

Well as many others have said here

it is a historic part of using a great sword. And it would ( does) make a great sword safer to use for SCA purposes. It allows thursts to be far more controlled and Greatly increases your blocking abilities. It would also make the Sca game more realistic then it it is now. As it is now a S&B fighter blocks with his sheild and runs inside a great swords range, with half swording if he does the same thing he now finds himself facing an opponent that can not only block almost as well as he can but can also counter attack just as well. Historicly a fighter armed ( and knowing how to use it) with a great sword was to be feared and was in great demand. In short it would give you all the advantages of a polearm and many of of the advantages of the sword&board

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 8:09 am

It doesn't make a lot of sense in SCA rules to want it beyond the "it will make it more period".
Thats the only reason that should really matter isn't it?

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 2:21 pm

Thanks guys, good answers all. Now if I suggest it, and people ask me "Why?" I have more reasons to support it...

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:06 pm

No. If it were dangerous, that should matter. We don't do things like kicks to the knees, even tho they're period, because they're unsafe.

Additionally, and we'll say it again, "SCA Combat isn't 100% historical recreation" and it really probabaly shouldn't be. Therefore, effectiveness is an important consideration.

But frankly, safety is about my only concern. If it's safe, I don't care if it's EFFECTIVE in the construct which we use. If someone wants to use a SAFE but INEFFECTIVE technique on me, so be it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thaddeus:
[b]It doesn't make a lot of sense in SCA rules to want it beyond the "it will make it more period".
Thats the only reason that should really matter isn't it? [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WalMart Warrior · Post by **WalMart Warrior** » Tue Oct 01, 2002 8:43 am

It seems to me that everyone keeps taking this to the SEM, who is supposed to be the FINAL appeal or approval for fighting related issues in the SCA. If you want to try to get halfswording approved, work from the Kingdom level up!

1) Put together a proposal for experimental weapon / rules for half swording. Include any (but a reasonable amount) of historical proof to back up your request. Also show how you feel it can be done safely.

2) Think about the rules for half swording from a standpoint of the most anal-retentive marshall you can imagine. Prepare this for publication in your Kingdom newsletter.

2) Request an experimental period - say, 6 months.

3) Assuming you get approval, you should allow any of your local Chivalry and most experienced unbelts to participate if they wish.

4) If your Kingdom has a deputy Earl Marshal for experimental weapons, report any results, comments, issues (good and bad) with the them at least once per month, if not after each event / practice you use it. Encourage ALL particpants in the experiment (including opponents) to do the same.

5) Take and fight the experimental style at every event you can - make sure all your opponents know it is experimental, maybe tape it in such a way to visually differentiate the weapon, etc. Give them the chance to say yes or no in facing it. Offer to do pick-ups with it. Offer to TEACH the techniques. Encourage them to report thier opinions, experiences, etc. to the KEM, or the deputy for experimental weapons.

6) At the end of the experimental period, present the whole shooting match to the KEM for either approval of disapproval. If he says no, find out why and work on fixing those issues. Or wait for a new KEM....

Any changes you want to make to SCA combat will likely only occur if they are equitable to all SCA combatants and most importantly, safe. And they will NEVER happen overnight.

WalMart Warrior

jester · Post by **jester** » Tue Oct 01, 2002 11:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by WalMart Warrior:
It seems to me that everyone keeps taking this to the SEM, who is supposed to be the FINAL appeal or approval for fighting related issues in the SCA. If you want to try to get halfswording approved, work from the Kingdom level up!

1) Put together a proposal for experimental weapon / rules for half swording. Include any (but a reasonable amount) of historical proof to back up your request. Also show how you feel it can be done safely.

2) Think about the rules for half swording from a standpoint of the most anal-retentive marshall you can imagine. Prepare this for publication in your Kingdom newsletter.

2) Request an experimental period - say, 6 months.

3) Assuming you get approval, you should allow any of your local Chivalry and most experienced unbelts to participate if they wish.

4) If your Kingdom has a deputy Earl Marshal for experimental weapons, report any results, comments, issues (good and bad) with the them at least once per month, if not after each event / practice you use it. Encourage ALL particpants in the experiment (including opponents) to do the same.

5) Take and fight the experimental style at every event you can - make sure all your opponents know it is experimental, maybe tape it in such a way to visually differentiate the weapon, etc. Give them the chance to say yes or no in facing it. Offer to do pick-ups with it. Offer to TEACH the techniques. Encourage them to report thier opinions, experiences, etc. to the KEM, or the deputy for experimental weapons.

6) At the end of the experimental period, present the whole shooting match to the KEM for either approval of disapproval. If he says no, find out why and work on fixing those issues. Or wait for a new KEM....

Any changes you want to make to SCA combat will likely only occur if they are equitable to all SCA combatants and most importantly, safe. And they will NEVER happen overnight.

WalMart Warrior<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Won't work. Or, rather, it shouldn't work. The Kingdom Earl Marshal (KEM) cannot waive Society level rules. That can only be done by the Society Earl Marshal (SEM). [Note: this process is complicated by rules written into Kingdom Law or Corpora which must be waived or changed by other means].

In the case of half-swording, for example, you would have to get the permission of the SEM half-sword at an event. This is because half-swording is prohibited at the Society level. You cannot even experiment with half-swording at a fighter practice, because that is considered an official SCA event [the rule is: any event advertised in a Society, Kingdom, or Local publication is an official event and must abide by *ALL* rules of the Society.]

People regularly ignore this. But they aren't supposed to. And when they do ignore this they potentially remove themselves from the SCA's liability insurance and expose themselves to punitive actions by Society. And they also force marshals to choose between enforcing the rules and having fun.

The fact is, while there is a published process for experimental weapons and materials (Page 30 of the Marshal's Handbook, as I have recently been reminded), there is *NO* published process for experimenting with techniques.

I would, again, love to be proved wrong on this.

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Tue Oct 01, 2002 3:21 pm

Jester,
I spoke with Duke Eringlin about just this subject at Gulf Wars two years ago.
I asked how do you run an experimental test for combat techniques? I used half swording as a specific example. At the time he told me that the test should simply be run as a weapons test through kingdom EM's. Since then I've heard he has made contrary statements to this, but I haven't spoken to him about it directly since.
As a rules "hack" when I submitted the test in the East Kingdom, we simply said that when a sword was grasped by the blade, it was not considered to have edges. Therefore, it couldn't be used to strike but could be grabbed with impunity by either combatant.
I understand your frustration, so little in our rules is laid out in a logical fashion, but I've found direct contact with the EM to be quite effective. That said I think we both agree they desperately need a rewrite.

Asbjorn

[This message has been edited by Asbjorn Johansen (edited 10-01-2002).]

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:24 am

Curious. Enabling half-swording in the SCA would seem to allow for interesting tactial dispositions; like a "half-sword wall"

-Mag =)

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by WalMart Warrior:
It seems to me that everyone keeps taking this to the SEM, who is supposed to be the FINAL appeal or approval for fighting related issues in the SCA. If you want to try to get halfswording approved, work from the Kingdom level up!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can't say that it won't work. I can say that it didn't work.

When a couple of years ago I asked my Kingdom Earl Marshall if a group of us could try halfswording as an experiment, he told me that he could not allow it since it breaks Society rules. He knows each of us in the group that wanted to try it and I believe he trusts us - most of us also have other martial training and have worked with similar techniques outside the SCA - but that isn't the point. The point is that his hands are tied by the rules.

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:01 pm

So get together at someone's house and try it, not at an official practice.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 6:33 pm

As stated above:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>1) Blocking.
2) Better controlled face thrusts.
3) Blocking then thrusting with a greatsword while in close.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use half sword very frequently with my bastard sword. I ended up just marking a blade on only about half of where the blade should be, allowing me to grab the "blade" halfways up legally. I pretty much have to use it fighting a sword and shield opponent, and it really throws florentine fighters off. Basically I have turned the bastard sword into a four foot partisan.

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 6:34 pm

btw, regarding any kind of safety issue, I've never had anyone have a problem with me fighting that way, I've never hurt anyone in the slightest, and several people have asked me to teach them how to do it with thier swords.

jester · Post by **jester** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 8:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Asbjorn Johansen:
Jester,
I spoke with Duke Eringlin about just this subject at Gulf Wars two years ago.
I asked how do you run an experimental test for combat techniques? I used half swording as a specific example. At the time he told me that the test should simply be run as a weapons test through kingdom EM's. Since then I've heard he has made contrary statements to this, but I haven't spoken to him about it directly since.
As a rules "hack" when I submitted the test in the East Kingdom, we simply said that when a sword was grasped by the blade, it was not considered to have edges. Therefore, it couldn't be used to strike but could be grabbed with impunity by either combatant.
I understand your frustration, so little in our rules is laid out in a logical fashion, but I've found direct contact with the EM to be quite effective. That said I think we both agree they desperately need a rewrite.

Asbjorn
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do agree the rules need to have some clarifications made.

I just heard back from His Grace on a request I made to hold a tournament where the hands are legal targets. I submitted my plan to him and the Outlands Kingdom Earl Marshal simultaneously since it involved a deviation from Society level rules. I have not heard back from the KEM, but his answer is moot since the SEM said 'no' for safety reasons.

I believe I understand, but disagree with, His Grace's concerns. He was unfailingly polite and very patient as He walked me through the process and I expressed my sincere thanks for His time and efforts.

I will try again when we have a new Society Earl Marshal. Until then I will look outside the SCA for a place to conduct this experiment.

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Fri Oct 04, 2002 10:19 pm

I had no idea half-swording was illegal on the Society level; I thought it was a kingdom thing. I don't really understand the safety concern; given that several kingdoms (as I understand it) allow unpadded polearms, I don't see how half-swording a greatsword could be any more dangerous.

Maybe instead of grasping the blade proper, we could be allowed to have a ricasso (hope I'm using that term right). That is, a second, small crossguard past the regular gard, with the "blade" in between being considered an extension of the grip. (In pictures of some period greatswords, that area is actually covered with leather.) Here in Meridies, the maximum grip length for any sword is 18", which I find frustrating; I'd love to try a 6 foot greatsword with a 24" grip. The greatsword, used with period techniques, should be a fast and versatile weapon.

As it is, using a greatsword in the SCA is purely a labor of love because of the restrictions; you have to work like hell against sword and board, but it feels great when you win.

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"Come, winds! Blow, wrack! At least we'll die with harness on our back!"

sedric · Post by **sedric** » Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:23 pm

Reaching out and grabing the other guys G. sword is permitted (in an unbladed spot).
O-kay, what happens when both of you reach out and get in a wrestling match about who is going to control both weopons? Last fighter practice I was thrown to the ground by my opponent (he stands 16 inches taller than me)
When do things go from ok to grappling? Where is the line?

Constancius · Post by **Constancius** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 9:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Adriano:
 Here in Meridies, the maximum grip length for any sword is 18", which I find frustrating; I'd love to try a 6 foot greatsword with a 24" grip. The greatsword, used with period techniques, should be a fast and versatile weapon.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hint: As I understand it the ricasso is not considered as part of the grip, just the non-edged part of the blade. Check in your kingdoms rules to be sure, but I think that that is how it is defined in the Society rules.
Feel free to prove me wrong. It has been a while (not really a long time though) since I've really dived into the Society rules.

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Constancius of Lincolnshire

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