Rule Question: Trapping polearms

[dukelogan]

exactly. since our rules dont allow a real response to someone grabbing the haft of my weapon im really not interested in some silly wrestling around of control. cowardice? well, sure if it makes someone feel better to call it that. however, i doubt most folks would throw that word around if i were allowed to lift them up and throw them to the earth. in fact im sure of it.

logan

I believe I understand the perspective of Sir Kieran, although I would avoid the use of "cowardice" in describing the choice to drop the weapon.

I think in the context of SCA single combat, it is a perfectly reasonable option due to the restrictive nature of the rules of our game. The rules create an unrealistic benefit for the person grabbing the haft and attempting to control the polearm, because they don't allow certain obvious responses (like using it as a lever to throw them to the ground, especially where they've managed to tuck part of it under their arm and trap it against their body). This makes it a perfectly reasonable thing, within the context of the rule set, to simply let go, forcing a reset.

Now, in practice, I can't say I've taken that approach There've been some pretty serious wrestling matches, occasionally resulting in trading weapons, and probably the sort of thing that could get me, and my opponent, in trouble with marshals who didn't know us. And I have called foul on one fellow who blatantly trapped the blade of my glaive against his body in direct violation of the written rules.

[Owyn]

To what was said above, I'll remind folks that by pressing the blade against his body (tucking it under an arm), the polearm grabber in this situation has *already* violated the rules of the list (may not hold blade of weapon, only haft). So not only is he being shielded from a cool hip toss onto his ass by the SCA rules, he's also *broken* those rules through his technique.

I don't see anything wrong with forcing a reset (by releasing the pole arm) if the marshals have not noticed my opponent breaking the rules.

(For other times...carry a sidearm. Dagger, short sword, small axe, whatever. For melee or singles, I can't count the number of times I have beaten someone because I had something small tucked away for a rainy day. )

[Leo Medii]

I guess I'm not most folks.





I keep forgetting this isn't real fighting. My apologies. I keep looking at it as a medieval contest of arms, where no knight of his time would willingly give up his weapon and be at the mercy of his opponent if given a choice in the matter.

[Hrolfr]

I am firmly in the 'stab them with your back-up weapon' camp.

If you fight polearm (glaive) without a back-up, I believe you are somewhat silly.

A seax to the face trumps a hand on the haft.

[dukelogan]

right, but he would have options that are not available to us in our sport combat. with those same options available i doubt we would see a whole lot of folks trying to grab hafts but, rather, using the weapons under their employ. as such i prefer to fight with the weapons we brought to the fight and if someone really wants to grab my weapon i will let them have it. clearly they are either afraid to fight me with those weapons or they admire the construct of mine so much they wish to see and handle it.

after that perhaps we can get back to the business of exchanging stout blows.

regards
logan

I guess I'm not most folks.





I keep forgetting this isn't real fighting. My apologies. I keep looking at it as a medieval contest of arms, where no knight of his time would willingly give up his weapon and be at the mercy of his opponent if given a choice in the matter.

[Leo Medii]

right, but he would have options that are not available to us in our sport combat.

regards
logan

I guess I'm not most folks.





I keep forgetting this isn't real fighting. My apologies. I keep looking at it as a medieval contest of arms, where no knight of his time would willingly give up his weapon and be at the mercy of his opponent if given a choice in the matter.

Exactly. In fact, grasping the polearm is incorrect. If the person initiating the attack was to get that close the fight would go to ground and grappling would begin.
To me, grasping the polearm is as close as I can get to the grapple after position is gained. And in almost 99% of the cases a sidearm ends the fight before any thrashing occurs.

My problem is I've been wrecked by studying. Before I started my quest to learn the historical masters and thier techniques and methods, I was pretty content to thrash around with my q-tip, lever machine gunning people to death. Now....not so much.

[dukelogan]

and i used to simply hip toss the guy to the earth, usually on his head. i had to retrain my brain i guess to not go right to grappling (sambo) and to simply let go of the weapon. besides, if the dude wants to fight with little daggers or whatever he should just say so. i would have no issue with that.

regards
logan

right, but he would have options that are not available to us in our sport combat.

regards
logan

I guess I'm not most folks.





I keep forgetting this isn't real fighting. My apologies. I keep looking at it as a medieval contest of arms, where no knight of his time would willingly give up his weapon and be at the mercy of his opponent if given a choice in the matter.

Exactly. In fact, grasping the polearm is incorrect. If the person initiating the attack was to get that close the fight would go to ground and grappling would begin.
To me, grasping the polearm is as close as I can get to the grapple after position is gained. And in almost 99% of the cases a sidearm ends the fight before any thrashing occurs.

My problem is I've been wrecked by studying. Before I started my quest to learn the historical masters and thier techniques and methods, I was pretty content to thrash around with my q-tip, lever machine gunning people to death. Now....not so much.

[Leo Medii]

I love me a good knife fight, that is for sure. More so when they bring spears instead of knives...

[deflagratio]

I love me a good knife fight, that is for sure. More so when they bring spears instead of knives...

Why look at the time. It must be shank o'clock.

[Palymar]

And as for dropping the weapon, that is total cowardice. And I mean that. .

I believe that Deliberately dropping/releasing a weapon is against SCA rules. Doing so makes you Helpless. Just like deliberately running into the ropes or falling over on the ground.

All three examples will cause the Marshal's to call a hold. Per the rules, you are not permited to Deliberately make yourself helpless. Deliberately letting go of your weapon so the marshals will stop the fight, is just another example of how you can make yourself Helpless.

[dukelogan]

sure. but then who determines whether it was let go or wrenched from the fighters hands? since you cant its a moot point. just like trying to make hilt blocks illegal (which doesnt make sense to me anyway) claiming them as target substitution. that too is impossible since you have no way to determine if the guy was trying to catch the blow on the hilt or the base of the sword.

i think its better for folks bring a pole weapon to a fight to use it as such. makes it all a lot cleaner.

regards
logan

And as for dropping the weapon, that is total cowardice. And I mean that. .

I believe that Deliberately dropping/releasing a weapon is against SCA rules. Doing so makes you Helpless. Just like deliberately running into the ropes or falling over on the ground.

All three examples will cause the Marshal's to call a hold. Per the rules, you are not permited to Deliberately make yourself helpless. Deliberately letting go of your weapon so the marshals will stop the fight, is just another example of how you can make yourself Helpless.

[Palymar]

Who decides if someone Deliberately ran into the ropes or Deliberately fell over?

It's typically very easy to tell, unless the person is a very good actor.

In which case, they got away it. Hope they are proud of their 'skills'

[dukelogan]

well, either someone is run into the ropes by their opponent not paying attention or they arent. thats pretty simple.

so where is the skill in bring a pole weapon to an sca fight, releasing it with one hand to grapple the other guys weapon only to then shank him with a dagger? seems pretty cheesy to me. now, if im allowed to grapple in return and deposit the grabber on his face im all for it. but since we arent allowed to return the action with the appropriate reaction i see little value in it. if we allowed wrestling my opinion would differ but we dont so i choose not to participate in a grappling match over my weapon. again, if someone wants to fight with daggers just say so.

regards
logan

Who decides if someone Deliberately ran into the ropes or Deliberately fell over?

It's typically very easy to tell, unless the person is a very good actor.

In which case, they got away it. Hope they are proud of their 'skills'

[Jurgen]

I grab polearm hafts on ocassion, and it is a useful technique in certain situations. I personally think it is cheesy when my opponent purposely lets go of their weapon just to get out of the situation, though I wouldn't go so far as to call it cowardly.

Interestingly, I'm rarely tossed around when I grab, and always by guys that are roughly twice my weight(out of armour). Even that is rare, because usually when I grab, the fight is over almost immediately. I should ask one the guys I know that does a bunch of other martial arts to play with trying to toss me around some time.

Jurgen

[Palymar]

I don't bring a dagger to a polearm fight

I do occasionally grab a polearm haft when fighting with a polearm. If someone lets go of their polearm when I do, *I* can tell if it is deliberate or not. If it is, I make an example of them.

I'm not looking to get into a wrestling match, I'm going for a brief and very temporary advantage of suprise.

If someone grabs my polearm, it's a rather easy task to break their hold. It isn't necessary to do hip throws or grappling moves or great strength to get loose. It just requires that you don't freeze up and you understand simple mechanics

[dukelogan]

yeah my issue isnt with someone who grabs the haft to swing it aside for an opening. that i can dig. what i have issue with is the cat who grabs the haft and then starts failing around whilst going for his dagger or whatever. brief and temporary is skillful, trying to wrestle with me while i am disallowed by the rules to respond in kind isnt.

regards
logan

I don't bring a dagger to a polearm fight

I do occasionally grab a polearm haft when fighting with a polearm. If someone lets go of their polearm when I do, *I* can tell if it is deliberate or not. If it is, I make an example of them.

I'm not looking to get into a wrestling match, I'm going for a brief and very temporary advantage of suprise.

If someone grabs my polearm, it's a rather easy task to break their hold. It isn't necessary to do hip throws or grappling moves or great strength to get loose. It just requires that you don't freeze up and you understand simple mechanics

[FrauHirsch]

I have pinned the haft of a polearm against my body with my shield arm on plenty of occasions. I have also been swung around through the air with my feet off the ground. Both moves are legal.

I never use my hands to grab polearms in a one on one.

[Violen]

Im called a coward for letting go of my weapon to reset the fight,


But if i use my natural advantage to bodycheck or grapple im called a cheat.

How is this fair?

I am not a coward.

[Leo Medii]

Im called a coward for letting go of my weapon to reset the fight,

But if i use my natural advantage to bodycheck or grapple im called a cheat.

How is this fair?

I am not a coward.

I think it is quite so. Why? OK, let me explain. I use full gauntlets. Thus, I am fighting sword and shield with a quillioned sword. I am fighting against an opponent who puts me back on the ropes. They have my sword trapped against thier sword and shield top for a second. I sense my imminent doom, so I drop my sword. A hold is called, and I get my sword back and re-set???

That would be cowardly too. My opinion only.

[owen matthew]

I have a personal bias against reaching for a backup dagger while you still have two good hands. You give up all of the advantages of choosing a pole arm in the first place when you do so.

Your two good hands are worth nothing if they are no longer in control of the weapon they want. They are no longer good at that point! I say dagger, all day, every day. Its even period. What is the real reason not to use one? I kill so many people, with a dagger, in this exact situation you described, its despicable. No reason to wrestle in our game, no matter how much you can press/curl. Just my two cents.

[owen matthew]

Im called a coward for letting go of my weapon to reset the fight,

But if i use my natural advantage to bodycheck or grapple im called a cheat.

How is this fair?

I am not a coward.

I think it is quite so. Why? OK, let me explain. I use full gauntlets. Thus, I am fighting sword and shield with a quillioned sword. I am fighting against an opponent who puts me back on the ropes. They have my sword trapped against thier sword and shield top for a second. I sense my imminent doom, so I drop my sword. A hold is called, and I get my sword back and re-set???

That would be cowardly too. My opinion only.

Either cowardly, or just plain outside the spirit of what we are doing. If you need quarter ask for it, don't steal it! It seems more dirty than cowardly to me.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

There are rules put in place for the purposes of safety. Forced to the ropes is to make sure the people watching are safe. The polearm disarm and falling back "limbo!" when on you knees are for the fighters safety.

Abusing the safety rules to avoid a potential loss is really sad, IMO.

Now in the Midrealm, the third time someone is in the ropes and causes a hold, they are put to their knees. Seems like a similar penalty could be imposed when the "drop" their polearm, or fall over from their knees.

Personally, when I am disarmed, I yield the bout unless my opponent offers to let it continue (NEVER had someone accept my yielding in the Midrealm). If they allow me to continue, I do some with a back-up weapon or (if I was sword and shield), single sword.


The "romance" of the SCA combat (chivalric/knightly combat) and the "sport" of SCA combat don't have to be mutally exclusive - unless someone needs them to be, for an advantage.


.

[Conrad the Mad]

I don't bring a dagger to a polearm fight

Yeah you just take your opponents dagger from their scabbard and stick em with it!

[Owyn]

I have pinned the haft of a polearm against my body with my shield arm on plenty of occasions. I have also been swung around through the air with my feet off the ground. Both moves are legal.

Pinning the haft is legal, but pinning the blade is not:

The blade of an opponent’s weapon may not be grasped at any time, nor may it be trapped in contact with
the fighter’s body as a means of preventing the opponent’s use of the weapon.

Because most of the polearms in our area are unpadded glaives (yes, I know that's another 'hot topic'!) with a third or so of their length as blade, it's not uncommon to see people pinning the blade against the side of their body instead of the haft.

What would be the best way to deal with this? Effectively, the person pinning the weapon is breaking the rules (intentionally or not), and is gaining an advantage by breaking them. Since dropping a weapon intentionally is also against the rules in the Marshal's Handbook, would it be better to call a hold in this situation?

[Diglach Mac Cein]

It is also common to see someone trap the haft, and have the 'blade' of the unpadded pulled back into an illegal position. Probably wouldn't happen with a padded polearm.


.

[Hrolfr]

I don't bring a dagger to a polearm fight

Yeah you just take your opponents dagger from their scabbard and stick em with it!

Yup.

[Thomas MacFinn]

Ooh!

http://medievalfighting.com/advanced-polearm

[Vitus von Atzinger]

If somebody is trapping your polearm blade -by grabbing the blade itself- simply call a hold and say "Stop grabbing the blade."

In non-shield fighting a man-at-arms without a dagger is like war without fire. There ain't anything cheesy about it.

[Thomas MacFinn]

Edited for clarity:

I grab polearm hafts on ocassion, and it is a useful technique in certain situations ... Interestingly, I'm rarely tossed around when I grab ... Even that is rare, because usually when I grab, the fight is over almost immediately.

I would guess this is because you are "doing it right". In my lone opinion, a grab to a polearm should be part of a two-part move by someone who can kill you one handed. If you go grab, boom, opponent dead; you are doing it right.

If you go grab, then wrestle around for ten to twenty seconds while you try to figure out what to do next or struggle to draw a too-well-secured dagger, that is when people get tossed around or polearms dropped.

[dukelogan]

yep.

if you can grab, boom, best then by all means im fine with that. if you grab and want to wrestle i will let you have the weapon since i am forbidden to wrestle back or lift you and throw you to the earth. some call me a coward for it which is cool but i bet you wont call me that to my face. if so, lets reset and i will let you grab my weapon and try to wrestle again only this time i wont let go and i will, i promise, send you into the sky only to find the earth shortly after.

grab it, move it, then do something to end the fight...... im fine with that. but creating a wrestling match that i am not allow to engage in because of our rules is bullshit.

regards
logan

Edited for clarity:

I grab polearm hafts on ocassion, and it is a useful technique in certain situations ... Interestingly, I'm rarely tossed around when I grab ... Even that is rare, because usually when I grab, the fight is over almost immediately.

I would guess this is because you are "doing it right". In my lone opinion, a grab to a polearm should be part of a two-part move by someone who can kill you one handed. If you go grab, boom, opponent dead; you are doing it right.

If you go grab, then wrestle around for ten to twenty seconds while you try to figure out what to do next or struggle to draw a too-well-secured dagger, that is when people get tossed around or polearms dropped.

[Hrolfr]

Your Grace, if you carry a backup weapon, then be releasing your pole arm, you ARE NOT 'helpless' (you still have a weapon ), you doing a stratagy

Releasing a weapon that has been grasped in order to get the fight 'reset' is cheesy (and against the spirit of our 'combat')

Releasing a weapon so you can stab the other person in the face with your dagger, is full of love

yep.

if you can grab, boom, best then by all means im fine with that. if you grab and want to wrestle i will let you have the weapon since i am forbidden to wrestle back or lift you and throw you to the earth. some call me a coward for it which is cool but i bet you wont call me that to my face. if so, lets reset and i will let you grab my weapon and try to wrestle again only this time i wont let go and i will, i promise, send you into the sky only to find the earth shortly after.

grab it, move it, then do something to end the fight...... im fine with that. but creating a wrestling match that i am not allow to engage in because of our rules is bullshit.

regards
logan

Edited for clarity:

I grab polearm hafts on ocassion, and it is a useful technique in certain situations ... Interestingly, I'm rarely tossed around when I grab ... Even that is rare, because usually when I grab, the fight is over almost immediately.

I would guess this is because you are "doing it right". In my lone opinion, a grab to a polearm should be part of a two-part move by someone who can kill you one handed. If you go grab, boom, opponent dead; you are doing it right.

If you go grab, then wrestle around for ten to twenty seconds while you try to figure out what to do next or struggle to draw a too-well-secured dagger, that is when people get tossed around or polearms dropped.

[Hrolfr]

In non-shield fighting a man-at-arms without a dagger is like war without fire.

Or sausages without mustard!

I feel naked without my side arm, no matter WHICH kit I am wearing.

I practice drawing and fighting with my back-up. It is a natural motion and response.

[dukelogan]

but its not cheesy to come to a fight with a polearm and then sneak someone by changing it to a dagger fight? feels sneaky to me. if you want to fight with daggers then, by all means, lets do the man dance. now if someone grabs the haft, somehow shoves it away, regains their polearm and cracks me in the neck..... thats fine. its the grabbing and wrestling around that i object to. if we were allowed to respond in kind (with te wrestling) i dont think i would object. or, if when you are grabbing at your dagger i could grab your wrist and manipulate it i wouldnt object. i wouldnt object if i could smash your hand when you grabbed my polearm either. but i cant.

now, ive never had anyone do what is being described. ive had one fight in which every time we swung on each other my opponent would close and then grab my polearm trying to wrench it away. since i was unable to forceably remove him or his grip i simply let him have the weapon he so clearly wanted. several times this happened and each time i asked him if he wanted to fight or wrestle. being lower on the op he was allowed to choose the weapons form (a practice i dislike greatly) but then he didnt want to fight with the weapon he choose. he had no "back-up" weapon. it left a bad taste in my mouth.

in a spear dual i had a guy charge at me with his spear, slip his lead hand off of his spear and grab mine, pull a dagger and draw it back as he closed clearly intending to stab me. i was pretty screwed save taking my spear haft and slamming it across his chest (which our rules say i cant ). before he was able to stick me two of my guys hit him (one on each side of me). he fell at my feet, looked up, and said "well shit, i thought i was gonna get you logan". i smiled at him and walked off to the side with him calling myself dead. that didnt feel dirty. but that is very different than what we are talking about.

i hope that makes sense.

regards
logan

Your Grace, if you carry a backup weapon, then be releasing your pole arm, you ARE NOT 'helpless' (you still have a weapon ), you doing a stratagy

Releasing a weapon that has been grasped in order to get the fight 'reset' is cheesy (and against the spirit of our 'combat')

Releasing a weapon so you can stab the other person in the face with your dagger, is full of love

yep.

if you can grab, boom, best then by all means im fine with that. if you grab and want to wrestle i will let you have the weapon since i am forbidden to wrestle back or lift you and throw you to the earth. some call me a coward for it which is cool but i bet you wont call me that to my face. if so, lets reset and i will let you grab my weapon and try to wrestle again only this time i wont let go and i will, i promise, send you into the sky only to find the earth shortly after.

grab it, move it, then do something to end the fight...... im fine with that. but creating a wrestling match that i am not allow to engage in because of our rules is bullshit.

regards
logan

Edited for clarity:

I grab polearm hafts on ocassion, and it is a useful technique in certain situations ... Interestingly, I'm rarely tossed around when I grab ... Even that is rare, because usually when I grab, the fight is over almost immediately.

I would guess this is because you are "doing it right". In my lone opinion, a grab to a polearm should be part of a two-part move by someone who can kill you one handed. If you go grab, boom, opponent dead; you are doing it right.

If you go grab, then wrestle around for ten to twenty seconds while you try to figure out what to do next or struggle to draw a too-well-secured dagger, that is when people get tossed around or polearms dropped.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Eh, other people think differently.

Depends on what you want out of SCA combat. Don't see them as mutually exclusive, or even incompatable on the field.


.

[Hrolfr]

Your Grace, I know Knight who fight with spears, but carry flip maces on their wrists. Is this cheesy?

I come to the field with weapons that I am authorized (and that MY persona would have carried).

If I lose my glaive (or axe, or whatever) I fight with my seax.

before he was able to stick me two of my guys hit him (one on each side of me). he fell at my feet, looked up, and said "well shit, i thought i was gonna get you logan". i smiled at him and walked off to the side with him calling myself dead. that didnt feel dirty. but that is very different than what we are talking about.

I applaud you in calling yourself dead. and yes, it is different from us fighting, you tying up my pole and me attempting to stab you with my seax (saying attempting because I have seen you in melees and I think it would be difficult). Awareness is part of being on the field, correct?

but its not cheesy to come to a fight with a polearm and then sneak someone by changing it to a dagger fight? feels sneaky to me. if you want to fight with daggers then, by all means, lets do the man dance. now if someone grabs the haft, somehow shoves it away, regains their polearm and cracks me in the neck..... thats fine. its the grabbing and wrestling around that i object to. if we were allowed to respond in kind (with te wrestling) i dont think i would object. or, if when you are grabbing at your dagger i could grab your wrist and manipulate it i wouldnt object. i wouldnt object if i could smash your hand when you grabbed my polearm either. but i cant.

now, ive never had anyone do what is being described. ive had one fight in which every time we swung on each other my opponent would close and then grab my polearm trying to wrench it away. since i was unable to forceably remove him or his grip i simply let him have the weapon he so clearly wanted. several times this happened and each time i asked him if he wanted to fight or wrestle. being lower on the op he was allowed to choose the weapons form (a practice i dislike greatly) but then he didnt want to fight with the weapon he choose. he had no "back-up" weapon. it left a bad taste in my mouth.

in a spear dual i had a guy charge at me with his spear, slip his lead hand off of his spear and grab mine, pull a dagger and draw it back as he closed clearly intending to stab me. i was pretty screwed save taking my spear haft and slamming it across his chest (which our rules say i cant ). before he was able to stick me two of my guys hit him (one on each side of me). he fell at my feet, looked up, and said "well shit, i thought i was gonna get you logan". i smiled at him and walked off to the side with him calling myself dead. that didnt feel dirty. but that is very different than what we are talking about.

i hope that makes sense.

regards
logan

Your Grace, if you carry a backup weapon, then be releasing your pole arm, you ARE NOT 'helpless' (you still have a weapon ), you doing a stratagy

Releasing a weapon that has been grasped in order to get the fight 'reset' is cheesy (and against the spirit of our 'combat')

Releasing a weapon so you can stab the other person in the face with your dagger, is full of love

yep.

if you can grab, boom, best then by all means im fine with that. if you grab and want to wrestle i will let you have the weapon since i am forbidden to wrestle back or lift you and throw you to the earth. some call me a coward for it which is cool but i bet you wont call me that to my face. if so, lets reset and i will let you grab my weapon and try to wrestle again only this time i wont let go and i will, i promise, send you into the sky only to find the earth shortly after.

grab it, move it, then do something to end the fight...... im fine with that. but creating a wrestling match that i am not allow to engage in because of our rules is bullshit.

regards
logan

Edited for clarity:

I grab polearm hafts on ocassion, and it is a useful technique in certain situations ... Interestingly, I'm rarely tossed around when I grab ... Even that is rare, because usually when I grab, the fight is over almost immediately.

I would guess this is because you are "doing it right". In my lone opinion, a grab to a polearm should be part of a two-part move by someone who can kill you one handed. If you go grab, boom, opponent dead; you are doing it right.

If you go grab, then wrestle around for ten to twenty seconds while you try to figure out what to do next or struggle to draw a too-well-secured dagger, that is when people get tossed around or polearms dropped.