I'm getting seduced by bargrills...

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 10:49 am

Bill: Yes, an authenticity minded fighterâ€™s strength flows from the period correct armour. But beware of the dark side. Vision, breathing, victory; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did others.

Aaron: Others... Is the dark side stronger?

Bill: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

Paraphrasing Yoda and Lukeâ€¦.

But, seriously...after fighting on-and-off for three years, and sucessfully getting four blows TOPS in...the bargrill seduction is strong.

[This message has been edited by Aaron (edited 12-05-2002).]

Noe · Post by **Noe** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:48 am

I have an odd philosophy re bargrills and baskethilts: I'm more interested in _why_ a fighter chooses to use them.

For example, if you are choosing to wear a bargrill because your chosen period would use only open face helms, then it doesn't cross my eyes none. On the other hand, it irks me a little bit if my opponent wears one simply to gain a combat advantage over me that is only possible due to a quirk in the rules.

This is one of the reasons that I prefer multiple rules sets. By using several methods to model combat, you discourage unrealistic reliance on certain techniques or armour. For example, would a given fighter mind fighting a counted blow tourney to say, 5 blows, with the stipulation that any single blow to an unarmoured area (armpit or, in the case of a bargrilled fighter, the "unarmoured" face) is an immediate kill? If he doesn't mind occasionally being at a disadvantage as well, then I don't really mind all that much. (Try this sometime, it's great fun).

That said, if you stick with the close-faced helm, you will find that experience will minimize the disadvantages of the closed face helm. Air flow and visibility, strange to say, is not as important as you think. One of the better fighters I know, Lord Rainald, fights in a sallet with about an eyeslit that is, at most, a 1/2" wide. We both agree that, after a while, you don't really need to see your entire opponent. If you just watch the set of his torso and shoulders, you can usually get a pretty good idea of where his sword is and act appropriately.

My 2 cents.

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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:00 pm

I actually fought better with a closed helm as it seemed to give me a sixth sense. I have since lost some of the ability to tell where blows are going before they get there because I am believeing what my eyes see, rather then my insticts.

Both of my persona's use open faced helmets (Spagnhelm and Bascinet) so I feel justified in using one since I also fight in a maille hauberk. However I plan on going back to a closed faced helmet for a while so that I can regain my lost jedi powers...

(^_^)
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Hjalmar of Sognefjord
Squire to Duke Sir John The Bearkiller
Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies.

Palymar · Post by **Palymar** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:39 pm

I can't fight in a bargrill. I have never owned one and on the few occasions that I have borrowed one to fight in, it drove me nuts. I had way too much visablity. It proved to be a distraction.
I suppose I could have gotten use to using a bargrill, but I enjoy having the closed face helm. More menecing looking

horsefriend · Post by **horsefriend** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 12:57 pm

Agitate for "count as you wear", at least for helmets.
Here in the ultra-conservative West we've recently been doing it for tournaments as well as wars and the general opinion is that it's fair.
You wanna wear an open face, you count damn light for those shots! It's fun to see "Duke Megasport" die to a tippy chin slice.

Alail/Scott

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:37 pm

Would clostrophobia be acceptable?

I tried fighting in a closed face helm and freaked out.

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:39 pm

>>I actually fought better with a closed helm as it seemed to give me a sixth sense. I have since lost some of the ability to tell where blows are going before they get there because I am believeing what my eyes see, rather then my insticts.

Interesting.

>>I can't fight in a bargrill. I have never owned one and on the few occasions that I have borrowed one to fight in, it drove me nuts. I had way too much visablity. It proved to be a distraction.

Also interesting.

Mag, who is playing in period eyeslots and being called "Ray Charles"

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 3:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Magmaforge:
>>Mag, who is playing in period eyeslots and being called "Ray Charles"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe that's funny. I am looking at switching to a houndâ€™s skull myself. I tried on a period sallet with a closed visor and a kettle helm with a period visor and I could see fine out of them. Was it as much as a bargrill gives me? No. Was it hard to see? No. Did it way less? Oh hell yes.

Can't wait to scrap my crappy bargrill helm.

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 4:49 pm

I haven't met the close-faced helm that gave me the breathing I wanted. Does such exist? Can it exist?

These questions are yet open.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 4:53 pm

I fight in a great bascinet modeled after Henry VIII's. I think I get enough air, it may be more perception that a person doesn't.

Now, gettting the water tube in is hard. It has to come from below my chin.

Palymar · Post by **Palymar** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Konstantin the Red:
I haven't met the close-faced helm that gave me the breathing I wanted. Does such exist? Can it exist?

These questions are yet open.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My sugarloaf gives me the breathing I want/need. The faceplate sits far enough away from my face that I have plenty of air coming in from my eyeslots, underneath and the air holes in the front.

Your mileage may vary.

Garreth · Post by **Garreth** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:42 pm

Palymar,
Yes, your Grace, you do look very menecing in your sugarloaf! Now, what about the rest of your sport armour and hockey gloves...

Garreth

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Garreth:
Palymar,
Yes, your Grace, you do look very menecing in your sugarloaf! Now, what about the rest of your sport armour and hockey gloves...

Garreth<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OUCH!!

(^_^)
------------
Hjalmar of Sognefjord
Squire to duke Sir John The Bearkiller
Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 1:15 am

Long ago when this board was nothing but a collection of clay tablets with cuniform scribblings on them (or at least it seems like it's been that long since I posted) I was a staunch supporter of closed faced helms. Call me Darth Duncan if you must but when and if I get my fighting gear back together I am going to have an open faced helm. Because I'm tired of getting so winded when I fight. I will still keep my greathelm but I'm getting an open faced for recreational fighting. Don't get me wrong. I'm not going all sport. Bascinets were worn open faced. I am going to continue to try and improve the over all authenticity of my gear.

Noe · Post by **Noe** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 1:32 am

Once you go barbute, baby, there is no going back.

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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 6:03 am

>>Now, gettting the water tube in is hard. It has to come from below my chin.

That's water, Alcy? There's plenty of clear liquids that could be substituted for a merrier fight =)

Palymar · Post by **Palymar** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 12:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Garreth:
Palymar,
Yes, your Grace, you do look very menecing in your sugarloaf! Now, what about the rest of your sport armour and hockey gloves...

Garreth<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can have my hockey gloves when you pry them from my cold dead hands (from underneath the baskethilts

The rest of my armor? I have it covered (for the most part) is covered by a very nice tabard. My gambason is a very nice red with over 2 miles of black tread embordery.
My legs are metal.

Sports armour? Sure to some extent, but it all (not the hockey gloves) "looks Medieval".

Could stand some repair to be sure

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 2:00 pm

I fight in a close helm and I have 3 visors for it. I have a fairly period eyeslot visor, a 16th century bar grill visor and a SCAdian mix visor that looks MOSTLY like a normal visor, with some bars from the nose up to the bottom of the eye slot so I can see down.

Why?

Because a guy in a 16th century suit of armour that included a close helm didn't care a whit if someone decided to belly thrust him. But ***I*** still have to take it.

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:31 pm

He also wore a breastplate, Morgan

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:12 pm

OMG!!! Duncan is it really you?

I thought you had died and fallen off the face of the earth

Good to hear from you.

Anyway, I have fought in both closed faced and open faced helms and while bar grills do ditract from the apperance of a helm I think it unfair to call open faced helms "sport" helms. Many early period helms had no face protection and little side protection. In the game that the SCA plays there must be some protection and as long as said bar grills are intergrated into the helm design I think you can the best of both worlds.

Insane Irish

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 12:40 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by InsaneIrish:
OMG!!! Duncan is it really you?

I thought you had died and fallen off the face of the earth

Good to hear from you.

Insane Irish<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope it's just a digital reproduction.

Are you going to be a Kris Kinder. I am going. It will be my third event this year.

Constancius · Post by **Constancius** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 3:24 pm

I have fought in both open faced and close faced helms. I prefer the open faced helms for the visibility, and the closed face for the look. That being said I must admit to....lusting for either a Corinthian helm or a t or y faced Barbute. I just can't decide. Eventually I'll have both. I hope. One day.

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Constancius of Lincolnshire

animis corporibusque

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 8:42 pm

Alcyoneus,

You're absolutely right about the "can't breathe" being a state of mind. Most people waste most of the air they get, anyway (you can extrapolate at will on that). You're taking in air that has about 21% oxygen, and are extracting about 2% of the total at each breath. Considering that around half of the air in your hat is getting exchanged at each breathe, about the worse you can hope for is a 19-20% oxygen product at any given moment.

The psychological issue is real, but can be overcome. When I went back on the field after being sick, I only had about half the normal respiration, and I didn't miss the difference the greathelm made. Just because the air is a bit warm doesn't mean it doesn't have what you need in it.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Sat Dec 07, 2002 9:51 pm

Dmitrey...correct.

But they're a bitch to carry through the airport!

Bob...I've been trying to tell people that for a long time. I fought in a reasonable eyeslot, closed face, no breathes armet for a year. I had no trouble breathing. But when I'd open the visor the "cool" air on my face sure felt nice.