Authenticity Police! Is that a basket hilt?? (in fun)

[Bastior]

I am currently helping a friend try to get his kit together and his persona worked out...after that...back to improving my personal kit.

May I suggest persona then armour, it's kinda like loot then burn.

B

[Lloyd]

I'm sorry, but I can't see why we idolize these guys so much.

Because they take it to the next level. Full armor, full contact, and metal weapons.

It is like comparing TKD to MMA.

Spot on.

[Lloyd]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McoL6PZw ... re=related

In the individual matches, there is a great deal of technique being showcased. Just sayin'...

And, Burgundians Win!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wQTg8m ... re=related

[FrauHirsch]

I have a 1645 burgonet that I love but have never been able to afford a buff coat or jack boots (as much as I love both), so I wear what I can get cheap that fits.

I have a hard time with the "I can't afford nice looking kit" argument.

I spent years with a landsknecht group who were mostly very low income/no income guys who were always able to scavange up a decent kit.

You can get old wool blankets, used leather coats, and nice brocade curtains and bedspreads at thrift stores wich can be used to make/cover a miriad of ugly stuff. Some of the bedspreads or curtains would make fine padded bases and doublet to go with your helm.

Some of the local young folks are getting free leather sofas on Craigslist and scavanging the leather for things like landsknecht clothes, brig's, buffcoats and boot tops/spats. Even with the cushion leather is stretched out, the back and sides will give some decent sq footage.

It takes some effort though. I started the SCA as a poor student and while my armor wasn't always "period", it still looked pretty good.

Elbow grease.

I've noticed that in groups where new folks are told "you can do it, this is how, we expect an effort", the authenticity standards are much higher.

BTW, there are usually SCA folk in most areas who will teach or give guidance on how to do what you want to do, and often even let you use their tools or equipment. For example, as a Laurel, my home is open two days a month for open projects and by appt. But if someone makes an appt, they need to show up and expect to work. I find once people have been through boot camp they usually just do their next on their own. I will also help people fit and draft a pattern for whatever they want to make. There may be a Laurel in your area that can help with that.

[Sean Powell]

Well not COMPLETELY nothing... you will probably dull the sword.
Thrusts to gaps in armor... yeah that's where the killing is at. Real difficult to play that game safely though as it requires protection under the medieval armor if you want to do it right.

Anyone know how many of the Lichtenhauer harnesfechten plays end in ground work vs how many end with a thrust into a gap vs how many end with a strike? I can't remember a single harnesfechten play that ends in a strike.

Sean

So the moral of the story is, they're doing it right and we're doing it wrong.

Well not 100% where I was going but not far off the mark. The SCA does a lot of things well but fighting in a documentably historically accurate manner we don't. We presume quite a bit about the deadliness of weapons vs armor types. but if someone were to suddenly document beyond all shadow of a doubt that it was IMPOSSIBLE to kill someone with a flat snap to an iron helm... the SCA would most likely adapt the interpretation of the sport such that we were wearing camails over padded caps. The SCA does what it does and then finds a historical context in which it is (mostly) right.

Luckily the SCA is a broad umbrella and things like CotT can occur. Within that rule set a single heanded sword to armor is pretty much useless also so the SCA DOES have the capacity to simulate a more historic method of combat when it choose to. Furthermore the SCA uses weapons where we CAN thrust for armpits and elbows and groins in an effort to get past armor and simulate certain aspects of medieval combat that really shouldn't be practiced with even blunted steel.

Live steel combatants get to experience certain things in a more realistic way then the SCA and their limited population and legal restrictions give them more leeway in what they can do... But not many can do 1000 person battles correctly.

It's trade offs... but yes as for what a single handed sword does to plate armor, they do it right and we don't. The rest is up for debate.

Sean

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

Well, for real historical accuracy, we'd have to armour like they did at Hastings, and then someone would have to die.

Looks like we all have fun in different ways and they are all fun for different reasons.... And I wouldn't mind doing all of 'em. So where are these awesome folks located?

-Ivan

BTW Who else here has done Olympic-style TKD sparing and Full contact point sparring? I have, and while full contact is fun, olympic style means you can move the next day.

[James B.]

BTW Who else here has done Olympic-style TKD sparing and Full contact point sparring? I have, and while full contact is fun, olympic style means you can move the next day.

I hated olympic style I always preferred full contact but both got boring which is why I did BJJ for a few year. I wish I had time to go back to BJJ.

[Jestyr]

I have a hard time with the "I can't afford nice looking kit" argument.

I spent years with a landsknecht group who were mostly very low income/no income guys who were always able to scavange up a decent kit.

You can get old wool blankets, used leather coats, and nice brocade curtains and bedspreads at thrift stores wich can be used to make/cover a miriad of ugly stuff. Some of the bedspreads or curtains would make fine padded bases and doublet to go with your helm.

Some of the local young folks are getting free leather sofas on Craigslist and scavanging the leather for things like landsknecht clothes, brig's, buffcoats and boot tops/spats. Even with the cushion leather is stretched out, the back and sides will give some decent sq footage.

It takes some effort though. I started the SCA as a poor student and while my armor wasn't always "period", it still looked pretty good.

Elbow grease.

I've noticed that in groups where new folks are told "you can do it, this is how, we expect an effort", the authenticity standards are much higher.

BTW, there are usually SCA folk in most areas who will teach or give guidance on how to do what you want to do, and often even let you use their tools or equipment. For example, as a Laurel, my home is open two days a month for open projects and by appt. But if someone makes an appt, they need to show up and expect to work. I find once people have been through boot camp they usually just do their next on their own. I will also help people fit and draft a pattern for whatever they want to make. There may be a Laurel in your area that can help with that.

This!

[Skutai]

Live steel combatants get to experience certain things in a more realistic way then the SCA...

Yes and no. I think the SCA does a good job of approximating behourd combat, under the general hastilude umbrella. I mean, you say "realistic way" but it's pretty clear that our ancestors fought with both rebated steel and wooden clubs, much like we do today, and sometimes just fought in leather or quilted body armor. Both the SCA and these nutters are fighting with the intent to not kill our opponents and there is a long history in the Western tournament culture that shared this goal. To defeat, but not to kill.

In general, I think the SCA, these folks, and our tournament-going ancestors had a lot in common on the field, in terms of intent and experience. At least a lot more than some people think.

[Sean Powell]

Live steel combatants get to experience certain things in a more realistic way then the SCA...

Yes and no. I think the SCA does a good job of approximating behourd combat, under the general hastilude umbrella. I mean, you say "realistic way" but it's pretty clear that our ancestors fought with both rebated steel and wooden clubs, much like we do today, and sometimes just fought in leather or quilted body armor. Both the SCA and these nutters are fighting with the intent to not kill our opponents and there is a long history in the Western tournament culture that shared this goal. To defeat, but not to kill.

In general, I think the SCA, these folks, and our tournament-going ancestors had a lot in common on the field, in terms of intent and experience. At least a lot more than some people think.

Agreed. They get to experience steel combat with weapons sliding on each other, slipping into narrow gaps and flexing more in one direction then another. They experience this more realistically then the SCA experiences the same thing. Hence the disclaimer.

I'm a big fan of the behord interpretation (without horses)... but the ruleset is not similar to a medieval behord ruleset because it is an attempt at 'killing' and 'maiming' with edged weapons and thus presumes a maile and teather standard. The behord rulesets that I know of were counted blows. If the SCA wants to more fully and realistically portray MEDIEVAL behord combat then we should modify our ruleset accordingly.

Thankfully the SCA rule-set is broad enough that we can adapt the ruleset for more 'realistic' (Cot30, counted blows) on occasion.

Sean

[Destichado]

I'm going on a little tangent, here...

I'm sorry, but I can't see why we idolize these guys so much.

I agree. They live in a very small nation where they have access to heritage beyond the reckoning of the United States. Museums and Medieval fortresses, towns and other remnants of the past constantly inspire these sorts of people. They form into groups of fellow craftsmen and make decent livings selling arms and armor amongst their companions in these organizations, and shipping it overseas to us in the form of collaborative businesses such as Armstreet, Armour & Castings, Wild Armoury, etc...

Being in such close proximity, it is easy to be influenced by historic armor reproductions considering the fact that they see it on the field. There's a huge gap between the amount of inspiration and understanding one gets about armour and weapons over the internet or from books (as most Americans do) versus actually seeing it function in real life. People who don't attend SCA war events such as Pennsic and who don't take the time to attend interior events such as the Combat of the Thirty never get a taste of the difference between lackluster appearance and true historicity.

In the SCA, there are unfathomable amounts of people attending war events compared to anything they put together in Eastern Europe....
<snip>

There are so many factors to consider that I could hardly go over them all... But yeah, the point is, these people have tons of advantages over us in the form of influence.

-Gerhard

Mm-hmm...
Okay, even though I vehemently disagree, for the sake of argument we'll accept your position.

So, how does it account for events like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USn0O2DmWn4


Not Ruskis this time, but LARPers. Who are taking it to the next level in terms of appearance, this time, on a MASSIVE scale.
Their standards as a group are... just phenomenal compared to ours. How have they managed to get so many people putting so much effort into their presentation?
We can't even take the cold comfort of our normal dismissals, like, "not real armor," or, "our best look so much better than their best," or, "they're not really hitting each other." (yeah, I DID go there, MK face-touch-kill convention!)



Click thumbs and see for yourself.

Going by your logic, are we to assume that they have an advantage because Germany is closer to Brettonia, The Empire, and Middle Earth than we are in the USA?

Yes, under our umbrella we have the CotT. Yes, under our umbrella we have LH researchers and craftspersons who are showing the *world* how to do it right. We have people like all of us on the Archive -and thank God for it!

But our best don't get to tell our worst, "you need to do better because you're making us all look bad." And they do. They have people at event check in who will flat-out say "nope, not good enough," and "come back when it's better." And despite that they're *thriving*! ...or perhaps because of it. Their events are darn near as big as Pennsic now, and they're new kids on the block. Doesn't that seem to put the lie to the argument that turning anyone away will kill membership?

Ever since I got back into SCAdia, I've heard lots (and LOTS) about declining new membership and aging population. We talk about it here, too. Lots of reasons come up.
The success of groups like these makes me wonder, hard, about whether the problem is really "video games and lethargic lifestyles" like so many say, or if it's that as a society we don't look good enough -from our combat to our camping- to make people want to trade in their street clothes and come do what we do.
It's an uncomfortable thought. If it happens to be true, what would we do about it? What *could* we do?

[Swete]

In my opinon, bad kits with glaring modern pieces, massive exposed amounts of plastic, and random armour bits from different cultures put together are far more harmful to recruitment than banishing such kits could ever be. (Naturally, such things are usually unavoidable for the new guys). But I would rather fight in a battle with only 500 warriors in kits that are attentive to detail, and whose appearance is obviously of great importance to the wearer, than 2000 plastic paladins.

I have been there as the new guy, wondering how the heck I was supposed to look as cool as some of the guys on the archive. But that inspired me to make my kit better. And as a result, I believe that my kit adds to the atmosphere of events now, rather than hinders it.

my 2cents

[Peikko]

Live steel combatants get to experience certain things in a more realistic way then the SCA...

Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine: the use of "Live" steel in place of "Rebated" steel when describing this sort of non-lethal fighting.

"live" steel is sharp and "rebated" is dulled...and playing with live steel can lead to bits of yourself falling off.

[zachos]

"live" steel is sharp and "rebated" is dulled...and playing with live steel can lead to bits of yourself falling off.

I still want to do it though.

[Peikko]

"live" steel is sharp and "rebated" is dulled...and playing with live steel can lead to bits of yourself falling off.

I still want to do it though.

which one? There is something to be learned from both to be sure.

[Sean Powell]

Live steel combatants get to experience certain things in a more realistic way then the SCA...

Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine: the use of "Live" steel in place of "Rebated" steel when describing this sort of non-lethal fighting.

"live" steel is sharp and "rebated" is dulled...and playing with live steel can lead to bits of yourself falling off.

Good catch. You caught me posting under the effects of Claratin and Nyquil. I'm surprised I was coherant enough to punctuate sentences.

S~

[Kilkenny]

In my opinon, bad kits with glaring modern pieces, massive exposed amounts of plastic, and random armour bits from different cultures put together are far more harmful to recruitment than banishing such kits could ever be. (Naturally, such things are usually unavoidable for the new guys). But I would rather fight in a battle with only 500 warriors in kits that are attentive to detail, and whose appearance is obviously of great importance to the wearer, than 2000 plastic paladins.

I have been there as the new guy, wondering how the heck I was supposed to look as cool as some of the guys on the archive. But that inspired me to make my kit better. And as a result, I believe that my kit adds to the atmosphere of events now, rather than hinders it.

my 2cents

I wonder sometimes if people recognize what they are saying.

Your personal perspective is that bad kits push people away more than banning bad kits would push them away. It's an opinion unsupported by valid data and strongly coloured by your personal preferences.

Just like the opposite position.

But, taking it a step further, you actually support pushing people away - that's inherent in your preference for 500 in good kit over 2000 "plastic paladins".

So, do you really favor prohibition over encouragement ?

And do you genuinely believe that out of 2000 people on the field, three quarters of them don't care how they look ? For myself, I am entirely convinced that this is not true. I see it much more along the following lines: 5% of the population are working hard to make themselves as close as possible to the real thing (look at people like Leo Medii as an example), another 10 % are trying to look the part with a high degree of authenticity. At the opposite end are 15% who wanna hit someone with a stick and either don't care what they look like at all they just wanna hit someone, or actually care and are trying for the MAdMaX look because it's uberkewl.

The remaining 70% are an amalgam of people who genuinely do not have the funds for a "good" kit, who haven't decided what direction their kit should go so haven't got off of SCA legal generic, who care but have other items ahead of hard kit on their to do lists.

[James B.]

Personally I don't think any policy is pushing people away nor is another hobby stealing recruits; people like different things and join groups that fit their need.

[Vladimir]

And do you genuinely believe that out of 2000 people on the field, three quarters of them don't care how they look ?

I would say half of them don't care, 1/4 of them don't know any better, and most of the rest would like to have a more period appearance, but cannot afford what they want.

As an extreme example -

When people spend several years with duct tape holding their gear together, never replace the visible plastic, never clean off the rust, allow painted helmets to chip horribly, and have 5 years worth of pennsic stickers still stuck to them, that just shows they don't care.

There is no other explanation.

[zachos]

"live" steel is sharp and "rebated" is dulled...and playing with live steel can lead to bits of yourself falling off.

I still want to do it though.

which one? There is something to be learned from both to be sure.

I do rebated, I want to do live.

[FrauHirsch]

In one of the videos I was watching the other night, there were people in these full contact steel battles that had NO HELMETS on. Hard for me to get my "very protected" head around.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Snip everything

These organizations are entirely different from the SCA in numerous ways. Firstly, I'll bet these organizations are relatively new - at least compared to the SCA. The SCA is going on past 40 years old, and many people are still playing the game like it was played 40 years ago. These extreme LARP groups have been influenced by organizations like the SCA and American LARP but have the advantage of having started in the age of the internet and mass media regarding their favorite fantasy and role-playing games. They have access to all of the same resources that SCAdians do, but in general their participants seem to be younger, computer-savvy individuals who take time to do research and either buy or craft excellent quality LARP gear. I'll also note that the event you've presented as an example is organized by a German group. As far as my regional explanations go, I don't see much difference here than with the Ukrainian example mentioned. Also, it's important to note that Germany has an extreme following among fantasy role-players who by no coincidence are typically young and very computer-friendly.

Also, the level of research (which is more than 50% of the execution of lots of great SCA kits) needed to make an orc outfit or an angelic archer kit is next to nil. Very different... Have you ever attended an event like the one you posted pictures of above? I've seen outfits of this quality in high resolution pictures and even a couple in real life. They are far less impressive than they look on-screen. Fantasy LARPers do not need to worry about numerous factors in their creations like SCAdians do in order to "get things right." Materials used are typically far from being an issue - cheap polyesters and funky plastic material abound in such organizations, even among the cream of the crop. Construction methods? Please. These people have only practicality to lend credibility to their creative efforts. In the SCA if you want to make an appropriate suit of armor, while following a do-it-yourself methodology it could take as long to figure out how to properly add articulated lames to a pair of couters as it would for these LARPers to finish half of an orc costume.

Anyhoot... Once an organization is started under such pretenses as the Wyvern example you posted, it follows that all new members being introduced to the game are immediately inspired by the quality of the impressions, and cannot successfully integrate into their games without showing similar displays. This is much easier when an organization is young, or somehow took a transition that allowed them to pick up on a level of sophistication such as what we see here at an opportune moment.

I cannot see that moment coming for the SCA, which encompasses some 50,000 individuals spread across the entire nation, many of whom really aren't even interested in following the guidelines of "portraying an historic pre-1600 figure." Especially after a lot of them have been doing it their way for decades... In turn, these veteran SCAdians influence new members constantly with displays of poor-quality material culture but perfectly successful event participation. That's all they need!

-Gerhard

[Steve S.]

Simply put, most SCA fighters don't want to wear armour. Armour is heavy. After fighting in my mail shirt for a month I was AMAZED at my fitness when I put my sport harness back on.

Armour is heavy. Fighting in real armour makes you tired.

I think this cuts right to the heart of it.

Now I will say that overall harness quality has improved vastly in the 15 years I have been doing this. But it is still a real martial art undertaken by people motivated to win fights, and the physics of that art drive the armour into certain optimal, minimal configurations that are usually completely at odds with most Western European knightly harness from 500-1700 AD.

Steve

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Simply put, most SCA fighters don't want to wear armour. Armour is heavy. After fighting in my mail shirt for a month I was AMAZED at my fitness when I put my sport harness back on.

Armour is heavy. Fighting in real armour makes you tired.

I don't think this works at all - Are the Eastern European guys superhuman, or what? Do they not have the same remorse towards putting on full suits of armor? It's an illogical argument. It would be more appropriate to say that the SCAdians don't put on armor where they don't need to. These European chaps are swinging at each other with steel blades, and are using a lot of force. If they want to play their game, they have to play in full armor. Otherwise they are getting badly injured.

If that's how the SCA's game was designed, you'd see more people in full armor. Because it would be necessary.

-Gerhard

[mrks]

why? the SCA is a sport with an an attempt to look medieval

looks fun!

here is what SCA looks like to yield or out of the eric: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmPya4jHfj8

I think it would be much different with a steel weapon.

[chris19d]

Seeing the nice harnesses people on AA have is what convinced me it was ok to get involved with the SCA, I'd always associated the SCA with hideous plastic armor, and a general lack of any historical accuracy, based on a couple demos I'd seen about 18-20 years ago. My goal is to eventually have a living history quality harness that is SCA legal and my near term goal is to build the most acctuate budget kit I can in the least possible time, making as few concessions to practicality/budget/climate as possible

[Swete]

I have been there as the new guy, wondering how the heck I was supposed to look as cool as some of the guys on the archive. But that inspired me to make my kit better. And as a result, I believe that my kit adds to the atmosphere of events now, rather than hinders it.

my 2cents

I wonder sometimes if people recognize what they are saying.

Your personal perspective is that bad kits push people away more than banning bad kits would push them away. It's an opinion unsupported by valid data and strongly coloured by your personal preferences.

Just like the opposite position.

But, taking it a step further, you actually support pushing people away - that's inherent in your preference for 500 in good kit over 2000 "plastic paladins".

So, do you really favor prohibition over encouragement ?

Well, I will admit that I wrote what I said whilst sleepy...probably not the best time to go on a rant!
So to clarify: If being pressured into making a more period kit means that there are less people to hit with a stick on a field, then alas. (my opinon of course). And of course I would rather encourage new guys, all guys, etc, to spiff, correct, and improve their kits rather than banning them. However, the sight of a squire fighting in white tennis shoes, tapped on bazubands (that have obiviously been that way for quite a while), blue plastic cuisses, who is mixing a greek barbute with, say, a wisby style coat of plates, is distrurbing to me, to say the least. And I have seen such...and far worse from those who are supposed to be setting examples for others.
Now, there is the fighter who could smoke 5 men at once, who is not any part of royalty, or any other organized part of the SCA other than being a fighter. If he/she was in that kind of get up, it would bother me, but not to the extent of the aforementioned example.
And as to first impressions for the new guys, luckily for me, most of the fighters in my area do care about the way their kits look. Of course there are the instances of "hey, meh strap broke. Hand me the tape.", but that is acceptable. I know that if I had went to my first practice and there was a guy, who was experienced, fighting in uncovered football shoulder pads or something of the like, with tape holding together every fiber of his armour, it would have most likely turned me off completely. Of course, I was comming from the position of one who was interested in medieval 'stuff' and wanted to hit someone with a stick. ;p
If I just was looking for MMA with sticks, then horrible kits, and glarring inaccuracies wouldn't bother me. But I'm not. I want historical authenticity along side of glorious battle.

[Tally]

When people...have 5 years worth of pennsic stickers still stuck to them, that just shows they don't care.

There is no other explanation.

Guilty.

Actually, I do care, I care about my Pennsic stickers!

[NeeSayer]

When people...have 5 years worth of pennsic stickers still stuck to them, that just shows they don't care.

There is no other explanation.

Guilty.

Actually, I do care, I care about my Pennsic stickers!

Because those are so hard to come by

[Peikko]

"live" steel is sharp and "rebated" is dulled...and playing with live steel can lead to bits of yourself falling off.

I still want to do it though.

which one? There is something to be learned from both to be sure.

I do rebated, I want to do live.

Cool. If you get a chance at doing any live steel...I'll expect to see video.

[Steve S.]

here is what SCA looks like to yield or out of the eric: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmPya4jHfj8

That is cool.

Steve

[zachos]

"live" steel is sharp and "rebated" is dulled...and playing with live steel can lead to bits of yourself falling off.

I still want to do it though.

which one? There is something to be learned from both to be sure.

I do rebated, I want to do live.

Cool. If you get a chance at doing any live steel...I'll expect to see video.

Incidentally, whereabouts in England would you call the sunny bit? What groups are you a member of?

[Lloyd]

This guy's videos are interesting. I particularly like the duels, as it allows you to actually scrutinize the fighting style.

Bugurt Duels

David v Goliath

[Swete]

Check this out. They are even using basket hilts. Tell me again why we in the SCA can't look more period on the field??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wDHCg3G904&NR=1

I forgot to mention that the kits in this vid are so marinated in awesome sauce...Thank you for posting it, me Lord Camric.

[Peikko]

...Incidentally, whereabouts in England would you call the sunny bit? What groups are you a member of?

Devon...second sunniest part of England after Cornwall (yes the sun is out even when its raining...which it always is).

I'm with the IDC (check my sig), and I know your mate (and armourer) Matt B.