authorizations - medical question

freiman the minstrel · Mon Jan 20, 2003 6:38 am

Guys,

I have a question.

We have a new fighter in our local shire. She has "a shoulder with sound effects". She CAN fight sword and sheild, but not for very long. Extended sword and board fighting causes pain.

She wants to authorize for heavy combat.

Kingdom authorization rules indicate that she authorize sword and board as a first authorization. She has said that she is willing to authorize S&S to "get in the door".

If she does, it is unlikely that she will every fight S&S again.

what's you're take on this?

freiman

Pietro da San Tebaldo · Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:32 am

Her medical conditions aside, I don't see any rules problem. I know fighters who can't stand "sword & board", and don't pick up a shield for months at a time. Personal preference...

(One Midrealmer's opinion. Your mileage may vary.)

------------------
"Or, a pall inverted surmounted by an orle Azure counterchanged"
mka: Sam Pearce

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 8:44 am

i agree, there doesnt appear to be a rules issue. if that is the case then let her go through her w/s authorization and, if she passes, she should then attempt to authorize in any weapons form(s) she is interested in.

not sure why she cant fight with weapon and a shield but somehow is able to fight with another weapon(s) mix. with the possible exception of spear there is little diffence in the general mechanics the upper body goes through using other weapons.

regards
logan

Elias mac Griogair · Post by **Elias mac Griogair** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:15 am

Freiman,
for some reason I want to say that it is not a hard and fast rule that you have to start with weapon & sheild as a first authorization but it is a very strong tradition in kingdom.
The best person to ask is either Max or Aethstan, and since aeth is closer try him first.
what is the form that she wants to start with anyway?

Elias

Conal · Post by **Conal** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:49 am

Freiman,

Contact your kingdom Earl Marshal and ask if a waiver might be obtained for her to authorize in another style. There is no point in putting this person's shoulder through pain and risk if she would be able to authorize in another style.

Regards,

Conal

freiman the minstrel · Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:49 am

Elias,

The lady in question has something nasty wrong with her right shoulder.

As we get older, we get different pops and crackles in our joints, but this young lady is in her mid twenties and has more noise coming from her shoulder than I have heard from men twice her age. She says (and I believe her) that as the shoulder extends foreward, it hurts her. She says that the pain increases as the muscles in the shoulder tire.

We had an afternoon of experimentation. She moves the shoulder a whole lot less with a nine foot spear or a glaive. She also likes the hand and a half sword.

But the Drachenwald Marshal's handbook clearly says that first authorizations MUST be weapon and sheild.

My personal advice to her is (and has been) "some people should not fight, for medical reasons", but her dream obviously includes martial prowess.

I am not a medical professional, and I am very, very adverse to telling her that she cannot fight. I am not even sure that I could "forbid" it. As it is, I really only feel comfortable "strongly suggesting".

And to make matters worse, the army gave her her husband back about three weeks ago. They are catching up on much lacking family time, and she has missed about three weeks of practices. She has missed the mock authorizations that Maestro Aethstan and I did.

You are bringing your authorization stuff this weekend, aren't you? We have a bunch of hungry young GI's. I believe that there is a lot of value in having authorizations done by folks other than the new fighters' local marshals.

No pressure, or anything.

freiman

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:15 am

I first authorized with Sword and Shield only because I had to! Once authorized I threw the shield away and went two-stick. I never planed to pick up a shield again! The only reason I did was because I drove 4 hours to an event that switched it's "Bearpit" tournement to a "Sword and Shield Only" tournament. Besides the fact that I had not used a shield in 2 years, I didn't even own one. I was forced to borrow a shield that didn't suit me and although I did well, I was eliminated earlier then I felt I should have been. I imediately went home and started fighting stick and board -determined to master it at all costs....

I also know some people who authorize Sword and Shield with the intension to only use polearm or spear in melees. I personally feel that the SCA should allow a beginning fighter to authorize in any style they chose.

You also cannot forbid her to fight as long as she can follow the rules of the list and conventions of combat.

(^_^)
PS: Greeting fellow Legioniar

------------------
Hjalmar of Sognefjord
House Bearkiller
Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies.

"True nobility is not measured by being superior to another, but rather by becoming superior to oneself."

[This message has been edited by hjalmr (edited 01-20-2003).]

[This message has been edited by hjalmr (edited 01-20-2003).]

Elias mac Griogair · Post by **Elias mac Griogair** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:15 am

Freiman,
have you ever known me NOT to have my stuff?
I hope to be there but the way things have been going lately I MIGHT not be. Aww the joys of being unit armorer

elias

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:55 am

might try another kingdom.
to be autherized in one does not mean you have to live there. so autherizing in pole arm in one kingdome would get you around sword and shield. and being preveiously autherized makes it a reautherization and might be exempt from the rule.
not quite shure so take with a grain of salt.

try and get her in to a fencing list at least once some people realy take a shine to that and recognize it as the martial art that it is.

Elias mac Griogair · Post by **Elias mac Griogair** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 12:23 pm

losthelm,
that is a good idea for the states but for us there is the small obsticle of the atlantic ocean

Elias

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 12:32 pm

the reasoning behind having fighters authorize with weapon and shield first has always been one of safety. simply put most sca fighters do not wear very good armor. borrowed and ill fitted rigs are very common during authorization fights (none of my students are allowed to authorize in gear that is not theirs.... pet peeve).

this being the case we can only assume that the kit they are attempting to authorize in is the kit they will fight in. and most of the people that bitch and moan about force levels are wearing crappy armor that doesnt adequately protect them anyway.

most new fighters lack skill. they will hide behind their shields and are very easy to defeat (usually with a shot to the helm). as such they gain experience fighting outside of practice and do not receive too many bumps and bruises. and they are safer opponents as well. there is nothing more concerning then some goob that learned how to fight by watching highlander running at you with a katana and a kilt. ive received most of my injuries in the hands of new fighters that have no real training and are fighting with "off" weapons. a single handed sword simply doesnt hit hard enough to be a threat and the shield seems to keep a little more control of the excited newbie.

we experimented for a while here in atlantia allowing fighters to go with a spear or w/s for their first authorization. while i am against the practice it seems to have worked out ok. mainly because most spearmen will simply give up once a fighter is in their face, thus no exchange.

i think that it is best to have someone authorize w/s as it allows them a higher level of safety both to themselves and especially to their opponents.

i am sure there are other factors that played a part in the tradition of w/s first authorizations but that is my take on what i believe to be a sound set of reasons for it.

about her shoulder. sounds like the bursitis i had. took 8 months of pt and lots of cortisone for my left shoulder and 12 months, cortisone and electroshock therapy on my right. eventually it was all fixed. fighting aside she should see a physician about it and get it fixed.

about her fighting. its not generally difficult to pass a w/s authorization with a little training. if she cant pass it she has no business on the field. suggest that she suck it up and just get the w/s authorization out of the way and then pursue whatever weapon form(s) she wants. she can donate her shield to a new fighter and do whatever causes her less discomfort. fighting through pan and injury comes with the territory but it sucks nonetheless. 8^)

best of luck to her!

regards
logan

edit was for grammar

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by hjalmr:
I first authorized with Sword and Shield only because I had to! Once authorized I threw the shield away and went two-stick. I never planed to pick up a shield again! The only reason I did was because I drove 4 hours to an event that switched it's "Bearpit" tournement to a "Sword and Shield Only" tournament. Besides the fact that I had not used a shield in 2 years, I didn't even own one. I was forced to borrow a shield that didn't suit me and although I did well, I was eliminated earlier then I felt I should have been. I imediately went home and started fighting stick and board -determined to master it at all costs....

I also know some people who authorize Sword and Shield with the intension to only use polearm or spear in melees. I personally feel that the SCA should allow a beginning fighter to authorize in any style they chose.

You also cannot forbid her to fight as long as she can follow the rules of the list and conventions of combat.

(^_^)
PS: Greeting fellow Legioniar

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by dukelogan (edited 01-20-2003).]

bela of kaffa · Post by **bela of kaffa** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 12:38 pm

personally, i think spear would be the worst option for a damaged shoulder... in my experience, the spear uses more shoulder rotation, rather then less, particularly when you get in larger combat situations, and the available shots for spears can get really goofy, but fun...

my shoulder was damaged during some basic spear drills... that being said, i've learned where my physiological limitations are, and i try not to push'm...

while i applaud her drive and grit, i'd have to consider invoking an old concept my mama use to repeatedly tell me in my misspent youth; if it hurts, stop! or, if it hurts, maybe you're doing it wrong...

has she considered rotator surgery?

bela
(not a medic, i just seem to have injured most of my joints, among other things)

------------------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by freiman the minstrel:
Elias,

The lady in question has something nasty wrong with her right shoulder.

As we get older, we get different pops and crackles in our joints, but this young lady is in her mid twenties and has more noise coming from her shoulder than I have heard from men twice her age. She says (and I believe her) that as the shoulder extends foreward, it hurts her. She says that the pain increases as the muscles in the shoulder tire.

We had an afternoon of experimentation. She moves the shoulder a whole lot less with a nine foot spear or a glaive. She also likes the hand and a half sword.

freiman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aidan Cambel · Post by **Aidan Cambel** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 2:01 pm

If you kingdom states you MUST authorize S&S, then do so. But remember, the main point of authorization is to prove that you are not a danger to yourself or your opponent (i.e. tripping over own feet or flailing around like a ragdoll ) and that you know the rules of the list and conventions of combat and are willing and able to apply them.

No one ever said you had to be good.

If the problem is that she can't extend her right arm with a sword without causing pain, teach her to fight left handed and use a small buckler in the right hand.

she doesn't have to be GOOD left handed, just has to not be a danger to herself or her opponant.

My bigger concern here is that her weapons stle of choice is going to open that same shoulder up for a good jab with a spear or whack with a glaive. If her medical condition is that bad - will it be aggravated by the rigors of combat?

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 3:19 pm

lets not forget that one must also be able to throw a telling blow. sadly that is not always properly verified. 8^)

regards
logan

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Aidan Cambel:
If you kingdom states you MUST authorize S&S, then do so. But remember, the main point of authorization is to prove that you are not a danger to yourself or your opponent (i.e. tripping over own feet or flailing around like a ragdoll ) and that you know the rules of the list and conventions of combat and are willing and able to apply them.

No one ever said you had to be good.

If the problem is that she can't extend her right arm with a sword without causing pain, teach her to fight left handed and use a small buckler in the right hand.

she doesn't have to be GOOD left handed, just has to not be a danger to herself or her opponant.

My bigger concern here is that her weapons stle of choice is going to open that same shoulder up for a good jab with a spear or whack with a glaive. If her medical condition is that bad - will it be aggravated by the rigors of combat? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

freiman the minstrel · Mon Jan 20, 2003 3:24 pm

Well,

I ain't proud of myself.

I just talked to her.

I brough up the possibility that fighting dispite a serious medical condition might be considered "a danger to yourself". I did not say that such a thing WAS "danger to yourself".

I suggested that an authorization marshal might ask her (on her honor) if she was likely to injur herself by fighting, maybe.

She has agreed to seek out the help of a medical professional (and be completely honest with them) before attempting to authorize.

The doctors are free for her, and she has time before this weekend's event. She had to work through a recent training holiday. Her shop has a day off this week in return. The clinic here is open for her to go.

She can still authorize this weekend, if she wants to go get the medical.

I still feel like Mistress FuddyDuddy keeping the kids from having fun.

thanks everybody
freiman the minstrel

Shamey · Post by **Shamey** » Mon Jan 20, 2003 10:22 pm

Freiman,

You are only showing concern for her well-being. Letting her authorize in s/s then going on to another form that could cause irreparable damage to her shoulder that would cause her to never fight again would truly be preventing her from having fun.

Her getting checked by a doctor before continuing is the best way to go.

I shall keep my fingers crossed that whatever is wrong with her shoulder is not serious and that she will be authorizing soon.

Elias mac Griogair · Post by **Elias mac Griogair** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 6:38 am

Freiman,
I look forward to meeting those that you are being "Mistress FuddyDuddy" to, and to test those that are ready for Authorization.
Also would it be possible for you t do a Period piece or two this week end for me as it will be the last time I get to hear you play?

Elias

freiman the minstrel · Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:03 am

Elias,

It would be a pleasure and an honor.

I am unveiling my comedic peices for this season this weekend (at least some of them)

And I am bringing the new Saxon Lyre. We may be raffeling it off to support the stronghold's first official event.

see you soon.

freiman

Ethilrist · Post by **Ethilrist** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Elias mac Griogair:
losthelm,
that is a good idea for the states but for us there is the small obsticle of the atlantic ocean

Elias<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or Asia, if you go the other direction.

Somebody authorized at Midrealm 12th night a couple weeks ago; he has nerve damage to his hands and can't fight sword & shield more than a few minutes, but he can fight just fine with a great weapon. He had contacted the PEM for Northshield ahead of time, and his initial auth was in great sword. So, as suggested above, contact your earl marshal.

Patin Windward · Post by **Patin Windward** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 12:41 pm

Well when ever someone I spoke to commented on a shoulder problen (as long as it's just the one) I say fight left handed a bad shoulder shoud work fine behind a shield(strap down heater). You will have to use the other hand in an initial auth like a single sword. thats what i'd do

hobbitsage · Post by **hobbitsage** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bela of kaffa:
personally, i think spear would be the worst option for a damaged shoulder... in my experience, the spear uses more shoulder rotation, rather then less, particularly when you get in larger combat situations,
<snip>
(not a medic, i just seem to have injured most of my joints, among other things)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If she shoots left sided and just uses the right arm to guid she would be using it less.

I know a solid righty that can only fight pole left handed instead of having to learn that backwards logic for those of us that played baseball/softball.

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:25 pm

I don't suppose she might have better luck fighting left-handed? Put something in her right that doesn't require much shoulder (Duke Radnor uses a "broken lance")?

-Dmitriy

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ethilrist:
 Or Asia, if you go the other direction.

Somebody authorized at Midrealm 12th night a couple weeks ago; he has nerve damage to his hands and can't fight sword & shield more than a few minutes, but he can fight just fine with a great weapon. He had contacted the PEM for Northshield ahead of time, and his initial auth was in great sword. So, as suggested above, contact your earl marshal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad to hear that they do make exceptions.

(^_^)

------------------
Hjalmar of Sognefjord
House Bearkiller
Barony of Grey Niche, Meridies.

"True nobility is not measured by being superior to another, but rather by becoming superior to oneself."

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:31 pm

Freiman - talk to Earl Marshal Max and/or to King matthew.

I am pretty sure exeptions can be made.

Also, remember that what we are looking for is that you, as a fighter, are safe both for yourself and others. We are not looking for skill in any particular form.

- Marcus.. :-)

CountAlaric · Post by **CountAlaric** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:04 pm

Your Grace,

In response to an earlier posting of yours, I too have an injury to my left shoulder that makes it painful to carry a shield for long periods of time (like out to a woods battle and back, or fighting three or four times a week), but I have no problems fighting two sword. I wish I could explain it, but swinging a sword with my left arm doesn't cause any problems, but holding a shield up for a long time does. Go figure.

Regards,

Alaric

[This message has been edited by CountAlaric (edited 01-21-2003).]

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:11 am

that one sounds like a problem with circulation holding your arm in that position and holding it there is causing stress in the sholder or arm. so try a smaller shield and don't use it as a static shield move it around play play with it a little and rember the farther a way it is for your the bigger it is for them. ie 20 inches is small on the hip but put it up in front of the aponent's hand and it seams about 35 inches. of coverage. it also is fun to table it for the snap shot on the left side.

william · Post by **william** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 4:17 am

@Freiman:

Please don't feel bad about being concerned about someone's medical problems. I've done the same with the other fighter in my group. He had some hip bone problems and almost got crippled the first event I saw him fight at (not being a member of our group then). I did not help him to armour up again unless he figured out a solution. Took him a while but now he's safe and happy. He's also a guy who cannot fight w/s for an extended time period. Hopefully he will pass his greatsword authorization this weekend.

Looking forward to see you there,

Will

------------------
* Noli fortius me ferire *

Ld. William of Llanwarne
Incipient Shire of Two Seas, Drachenwald, SCA

Elias mac Griogair · Post by **Elias mac Griogair** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 6:22 am

Freiman,
are all of yours planning on JUST doing Weapon & Sheild or are there any different Authorizartions? also the King is planning to be there I believe so he could give a ruling on site if need be for the Lady.

William,
are you going and do I need to bring any extra weapons to help you troopie?

Elias

william · Post by **william** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 9:44 am

Elias,

yes, we'll be there in force. Hey, it looks like this will be our "Independence Day" (read: advancement from incipient to full status).

Thanks for your offer - I've built a twohanded sword for Lestard and a halberd for myself, so unless one of these does not pass inspection we should be fine.

Counting hours ...

Will

------------------
* Noli fortius me ferire *

Ld. William of Llanwarne
Incipient Shire of Two Seas, Drachenwald, SCA

Sixtus_Goetz · Post by **Sixtus_Goetz** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 10:42 am

Greetings,

Here in Drachenwald we have Weapon and Shield, two weapon, great weapon, pole arm, rattan spear and poltruded fiberglass spear
authorizations.

Saranac Goetz

P.S. Lord William, remember monday when you return from St Mathieu's to change your signature block to reflect your shires elevated status. Your shire has worked a great deal. Again Grats.

[This message has been edited by Depths_of_Mind (edited 01-22-2003).]

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Wed Jan 22, 2003 5:59 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by freiman the minstrel:
[B]Guys,

Just on the off chance that she is trying to use a style more suited to an adult man suggest that she visit

http://www.peak.org/~grainne/Ironrose/faq.html#III2

One woman I trained could routinely throw a fast hard bizzare flat snap that took advantage of the machanics of a womans sholder and elbow joint structure, but was in serious pain anytime she tried some "basic" attacks.
There's a reason they throw baseballs like a girl

william · Post by **william** » Thu Jan 23, 2003 6:30 pm

@Depths_of_Mind:

Thanks for the public praise! I'll pass it on to the rest of the bunch.

William "geez, what did I do?" Llanwarne