Modern Jousting Horses of Choice?

[Vermillion]

Maybe Jeffery or Lloyd can answer this... Or anyone else feel free.

Growing up in a poor workingclass family in the suburbs, I never spent much time around horses except maybe for some poorly scripted Ren Fair jousts where they didn't even wear helms.

In the past year however, My wife and daughter have both started riding Saddlebreds, and competing at shows in the Mid-Atlantic region. So I've started spending some time around show rings and the barns. I've even considered taking a few lessons myself.

But my question is... What breed (or type if breed non-specific) do modern jousters think is best? In some newspaper articles (New York Times Article?), it discusses how some riders prefer the big shire horses, and others call those horses "dump trucks". So what are the commonly seen horse breeds at jousts?

Me I really like Friesans and Andalusians, but its not like I'm really going to be saddling up in my armour anytime soon !

[Dafydd]

You may also want to decide right up front if you're looking to do jousting as your only (or at least main) medieval equestrian pursuit, or if you're looking to do a broader range of "things medieval" on your horse. The answer might effect your choice, depending on the horses you find available.

It's hard to go wrong either way with a Friesian or Andalusian (warhorse lineage, and you'll commonly find just the right sort of mind for this stuff)...but as I'm sure you know , the investment is substantial. An alternative I know first hand works very well would be either of those breeds crossed with a Morgan. Plenty of power for the joust, shock quintain, etc., but sufficiently compact and agile to handle the more agility-based elements in medieval gaming, etc. Pure Morgans work well, too, actually (a local shire's rather competitive Equestian Defender's tournament was recently won by rider on one).

You would probably be better off, regardless of direction, to avoud a full blood heavy draft breed of any type. Too tall for anything but the joust and maybe crest combat, for one. A lot of work to get them up beyond a trot, for another! Draft crosses, on the other hand, can work really well.

Lots of possibilities, really...it's more a matter of finding the right equine mind than any other single factor.

[Lloyd]

I prefer draft crosses (especially Percheron/QH), but have spent plenty of time of pure drafts. I like them mostly because of their good nature, character and willingness to work with you. Most are like big puppies and I have a great picture of my daughter, who was 3 at the time, walking across the paddock with an 18+hh Clydesdale walking close behind her, but being very, very careful not to step on her.

Another reason I prefer draftx/drafts is because I am a pretty big guy and me in my armour is a bit too much for a smaller horse to carry. However, I don't go around telling school children that these are the "real horses that the knights rode" as most draft breeds we have today weren't even close to being developed during the middle ages.

[img]http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff164/joustwarrior/SirLlwyd3.jpg[/img]

[Vermillion]

Thanks guys. I appreciate the responses.

Lloyd, I would love to see that pic !

I'm a pretty big guy myself, 6'2" and 240+ buck wild, with about 50 lbs plus in my 3/4's set of plate, so I was thinking I would need a big 16 to 17 hand horse to haul my fat carcass around.

We currently have a half lease on a small 15 hand Saddlebred mare that my daughter rides competitively. A nice looking horse, with a lot of leg "action" for the competitive English riding that she does. A past National Champion. And for a Saddlebred, is considered very "calm".

Of course Saddlebreds and the word "calm" doesn't really fit given that they are the most schizophrenic and high strung breed I've been around. They're pretty, but unpredictable.

I've spent too much time around Saddlebreds, because the Morgans I've seen at shows, have funny looking heads to me.

My wife wants us to get a horse, but won't compromise with me.

I've got my heart set on a big Friesan Gelding, but not her type of horse.

[Black Swan Designs]

Our crew and what we do with them

Leopold
Clydesdale X Thoroughbred
8 years old
15.2

Joust, skill at arms, trail, beginning dressage, goes sidesaddle

Lucas
Azteca
15 years old
15.2 hh

Joust, skill at arms, trail, polo, gymkhana, goes sidesaddle

Petrus
Belgian X Haflinger
12 years old
15.2

Joust, skill at arms, trail, beginning working equitation, polo

Tristan
Percheron X Paint
6 Years old
16hh

Joust, skill at arms, trail, beginning dressage

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

Awww.....T's so cute in that pic.

My recommendations are:

Stay away from Friesians. They're carriage horses and look fantastic while driving but their gait at trot and canter just sucks for jousting. Very bouncy at a trot and "rolly" at a canter. Exactly what you -don't- want for jousting and riding in harness. You'd probably look marvelous while riding and jousting but you'd score fuck all and may cause a safety problem 'cause your lance might go all over the place. Their brains can "fall out" occasionally and without warning. They get real stupid at the most unexpected and nonsensical things.

Friesian x Cob, however, is a completely different kettle of fish. They look marvelous, have glass smooth gaits (at least the 2 I've ridden) and are much more sane than the pure friesian. Question is, can you find one in this country? You might look for a Gypsy Cob x Friesian, sometimes calle a "Gypsian".

Stay away from "gaited" horses. They take a special hand and leg to ride effectively even when unarmed, and they have a tendency to avoid cantering. Some fine control goes away when your armed, so finding all the "gears" on a gaited horse is really tough, and bringing them up into a canter through their other gaits is tricky. More than you really want to mess with when you're jousting. So many other horses, usually cheaper, will do a better and easier job of it. Fact is, you need the canter and gallop when you joust. A super-fast "tolt" or "racking trot" or "pace" just won't cut it. In fact those specialty gaits -get in the way- when you're jousting and just detract from the matter at hand.

Sorry to burst your bubble with the Friesian, but if you go out an ride one, I think you'll agree with me. With any horse prospect, ride it a few times before purchase to know what you're getting into. Some horses you think aren't prospects turn out to be so, others you think are perfect loose their minds when you least expect it. The more you pay for a horse, the more you should carefully consider the purchase, unless of course, you're made of money.

Bonne Chance!

[Black Swan Designs]

Awww.....T's so cute in that pic.

That's because the great Knobby Headed Beast -is- cute, dear! I believe I mentioned that to you just this morning.

Gwen

[Andrew McKinnon]

Hey Vermillion,

I got bitten by the bug about Jan 2007. I hadn't ridden except for a bit of pony club under sufference when I was in my teens. I started competing in January this year and have been lucky to have acquitted myself well in half a dozen tourneys/shows so far this year.

If I can give you some very simple advice, I would find a horse that can carry you armoured, somewhere between 16-17 hands if that's the size the local folk compete with.

Look for a fit and healthy animal that has a calm temperament. Obviously aesthetics play some part but you don't want to spend a fortune on a prospective joust pony that becomes a project and doesn't joust. Temperament is what it's all about.

Also I would look for a slightly under impulsive mount. As a beginner jouster they are much easier to build your confidence on than some maniac forward moving hot blooded thing.

Go and do heaps of squiring on the ground with Jeff, Lloyd, Jeremy or whoever is closest. You will learn heaps that way (surprisingly also about the horses). They may in turn give up some of their time and expertise to help you look at and select an appropriate mount.

Main thing I discovered is I love horses. The jousting is an important part of it but you want a kind and willing partner for all those hours of learning and training in your arena, yard or paddock. That what will give you a real sense of enjoyment and accomplishment.

Good luck with it.

[Lloyd]

Of course there is always one (or two) exceptions to the rule:







Cassandra Adams and Valour (one of the highest graded Friesian stallions in North America). However, like Jeff said, the breed was developed to pull carriages and I have seen many that flat plain refuse to canter.

Stick with the Draft Crosses, big horses with even bigger hearts!

[smokeslastspot]

"Stay away from "gaited" horses. They take a special hand and leg to ride effectively even when unarmed."

Utter nonsense.

While I agree that gaiting could be a problem for a serious jouster the above statement is not true of any gaited horse I have ever ridden. I have both gaited and non gaited horses so I am not biased either way and I ride them all the same. Both of my gaited horses respond just as well to the same cues as the non gaited ones do. The only difference is that when I ask for a gradual change in speed they will gait before cantering instead of trotting. All it takes to go directly into a canter is training just like with a non gaited horse. As for them being more expensive that depends on what area you are in. Where I live the prices are about equal.

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

Of course there are exceptions where gait is concerned, but as a general rule, Friesians' movement is not conducive to jousting.

Lloyd, your photos point out another issue with most friesians-- high head carriage. This can pose a problem for both the rider and the opponent, as the high head can bump the rider's lance off target, and can require "aiming around" the head of the oncoming horse for the opponent. This can be a concern with any horse that carries its head high at a canter, or if the rider doesn't reduce bit contact during a course, thereby "asking" the horse to lift its head. It's especially prevalent with Friesians though because of their conformation. That's the way they're put together.

I expect most jousters in this country don't find a high head carriage to be much of a problem when they joust because they're going rather slow and there's time to aim around the head, but when the speed increases, the game totally changes. You have a split second to get the lance around the oncoming horse's head to hit your target. Less time to aim, less room for error. A high head carriage can create the possibility for horse hits too, which just ain't good.

There is a distinct changing of the game when shifting from slow horses (like the drafts predominantly used in this country) to faster ones. One must refine and hone one's skill and technique. There is literally no time to "think" about what you're doing. You must develop ingrained and highly refined techniques that only require "reacting" from instinct and muscle memory. Not easy and takes a long time to learn.

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

"Stay away from "gaited" horses. They take a special hand and leg to ride effectively even when unarmed."

Utter nonsense.

You're welcome to your opinion, as I am welcome to express mine. I don't appreciate you calling my -opinion- "utter nonsense". I would not do the same to you.

I speak from experience having tried jousting on a gaited horse in my full plate. I hope you will enlighten us on your experience in doing the same.

[smokeslastspot]

I am not speaking about jousting in particular just your comment "They take a special hand and leg to ride effectively even when unarmed". If you recall I also said "I agree that gaiting could be a problem for a serious jouster". I am not talking about your comments regarding gaited horses and jousting, only that in my experiece "even when unarmed" that they respond to the same cues. I am just trying to let people know that anyone can ride a gaited horse without special training or having a special sort of hand.

[zachos]

I am not speaking about jousting in particular just your comment "They take a special hand and leg to ride effectively even when unarmed". If you recall I also said "I agree that gaiting could be a problem for a serious jouster". I am not talking about your comments regarding gaited horses and jousting, only that in my experiece "even when unarmed" that they respond to the same cues. I am just trying to let people know that anyone can ride a gaited horse without special training or having a special sort of hand.

Maybe "not sure I agree with you there" would have been a nicer way of putting it?

My favourite two horses to look at on the jousting circuit are FriesianxCobs. I really enjoyed riding an ex polo pony though. They're great because they respond to your seat and leg so much. As for using big horses? There's no point whatsoever. Medieval horses were not massive, you needed to be able to mount in armour without a mounting block. You want something like a cross between a Cob and a Polo pony kind of thing: Agile, but strong, and very well behaved.

Because pictures is good:



Duke. Awesome looking horse, going to be great one day. Bit naughty sometimes at the moment.



Hawthorn. Boy would I love to joust on hawthorn. He's terrifying when he comes steaming towards you though.

I believe these are the Two FriesianXCobs that Jeff was talking about. They're awesome.

[Lloyd]

No disagreement about head carriage (I have had to aim around Valour's nogging on many occassions) .

While I have, over the past 12 years or so, jousted predominately on Drafts and Draft/Crosses - since I started jousting back in 1981, I have also jousted on QH and Thoroughbreds, (some right off the track, heck, a couple of times ON a track, that was fun...), as well as a Trakehner, Standardbreds, Missouri Foxtrotters, a Tennessee Walker or two, and, just for fun, a Halfinger. So I am up on the different techniques involved when the speed gets up there! (heck, even on the 75' list lit only by spotlights at Medieval Times for 3 years - talk about dropping and aiming fast!)

But Jeff has the right of it, different breeds will define your jousting technique.

Vermillion, while you should definitely get a horse that fits both you, your riding style and the equine sport that you intend to participate in (I also coach a polocrosse team) - if you want to get a horse that would "set well" with your wife, remember that a draft (cold blood) crossed with a hot blooded horse (QH, Arab, etc.) gives you a Warmblood - a mount very much prized for their ability at jumping and dressage. That may "seal the deal" for you

[Black Swan Designs]

I really enjoyed riding an ex polo pony though. They're great because they respond to your seat and leg so much.

Lucas is an ex-polo pony (still plays but mostly does medieval stuff now) who took to jousting almost instantly. He's almost been the exception to the rule though, most of the polo ponies around here deal well with commotion, but the metal noise freaks them out. We've had much better luck with rodeo horses, especially pickup horses. They are used to being in the middle of a train wreck (metal noise, flying debris, being hit by stuff, bodies crashing into them, etc.), and jousting doesn't phase them a bit.

We're great believers in the Doma Vaquera style of riding for medieval activities. This is a classical school which has gained popularity as 'Working Equitation' in the last 8 years. Although pretty widely recognized and practiced throughout Europe, it is hardly known here, which IMO is a great pity. We school our horses and our students in this style, and it works out very well.

I've strayed a bit off topic with this last bit, sorry.

Gwen

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

I have no problem whatsoever with people expressing an opinion and/or disagreeing with mine. That's everybody's right. I do however have a problem when someone calls my opinion "utter nonsense"--- that's just plain rude. Disagree with me fine, but do me the courtesy of being polite please.

I was specifically asked what types of horses I prefer in jousting and offered suggestions. I expect it's -possible- to joust on nearly any breed/type of horse, but that doesn't mean -all- breeds/types are best. I expressed an opinion on what types are -not- optimum for jousting-- I never said it wasn't possible to joust on Friesians nor gaited horses, just that they're not the best choice for the job. There are plenty of other types that are much better suited for the job. We all tend to ride what we have or have access to. Hell, one of our horses Gwen shows above (Halflinger/Belgian) plays polo! Not great, but he does the job. Is he my first choice for polo--- no. Given a choice I'd use a different horse as my 2nd for polo, but he's what I've got. With 4 already, we're not about to get more horses unless we can add another 6 hours to each day to keep them all in shape.

My -opinion- on gaited horses stands. I politely disagree with 'smokes'.

Zachos, I believe Duke is a purebred Friesian. Hawthorne is definitely cob x Friesian. I've jousted Hawthorne in France last year and he's luuuurrrvely! Very smooth. A bit excitable, but a nice ride. The other Friesian x Cob I've ridden was another horse Dom used for a while, name of William, who he had on lease from Phil Allen until 2004. He was even smoother than Hawthorne.

I've not ridden Duke, so I don't know what his gaits are like, but based on his photo above and going on hacks with Toby who was riding Duke, I feel pretty sure Duke is pure friesian and has the typical high-action gaits. Videos from Hampton Court bear witness to that.

[zachos]

Zachos, I believe Duke is a purebred Friesian. Hawthorne is definitely cob x Friesian. I've jousted Hawthorne in France last year and he's luuuurrrvely! Very smooth. A bit excitable, but a nice ride. The other Friesian x Cob I've ridden was another horse Dom used for a while, name of William, who he had on lease from Phil Allen until 2004. He was even smoother than Hawthorne.

I've not ridden Duke, so I don't know what his gaits are like, but based on his photo above and going on hacks with Toby who was riding Duke, I feel pretty sure Duke is pure friesian and has the typical high-action gaits. Videos from Hampton Court bear witness to that.

It's very possible he is. He's quite stocky, which made me think he might be a little bit cob, but as you say, he's very bouncy in gait. I was at HC for the 15th century joust, and he's got a massive action in the trot. Toby seems to cope with the aiming while riding him, but when he had to switch to Segunda for one of the jousts ended up doing much better.

Segunda is actually the polo pony I was talking about. I think Gwens right that not all polo ponies are suited, as they need a lot of re-training, but if you can get the right one, then they work like machines. They also tend to be about the right size historically, in my opinion.

[Black Swan Designs]

Segunda can't play polo anymore because she's blind in one eye. It's against polo rules to play a horse blind in one eye. Hasn't slowed her down for jousting though, eh?

I think it depends on they type of horse currently popular for polo where you are. Skinny Thoroughbred types are popular here. We hire some for skill at arms at TotP, but they're no good and too light for jousting. One of the reasons we have Lucas is that he isn't the same type as the other ponies, and he just didn't fit in. He plays 4 goal polo like a mad thing, but he is an undesirable type.

[Jeffrey Hedgecock]

Segunda's awesome. I won Hackaland on her in '08 and Vernuil last year in France. I was "told" by my mates that I won the RA individuals in '08 riding Segunda, but unfortunately they didn't give me the prize. (I had to settle for 2nd).......

Segunda was Jason K's #1 polo horse when he played and she has done great for those who've ridden her at the joust. She's not much to look at, but holy crap can she joust. Smooth and low head carriage. Brilliant.

[zachos]

Me on Segunda at a training event for Edgecote:



I enjoyed riding her loads, but she wasn't doing any more events that season, so I was put on Boudica instead. Now she's a game little pony and no mistake:



That's Sean riding her at HC. She was absolutely fearless. Sean said she didn't feel like a pony, and I agree. She's so tough and strong you forget how much smaller than the others she is.

[Black Swan Designs]

I get a lump in my throat over these horses. They are -so- tough and willing and fearless, and they just LOVE to joust. Lucas gets himself so wound up that he'll just spring straight up in the air like a rabbit, and when he's given his head he looks like he's been shot out of a crossbow. He literally does 0-60 in a split second- here he's at full velocity and he's not even in the tilt yet.



There is no way to put a price on a horse who is fearless in the list and quiet on the ground. They are worth their weight in gold.

[Vermillion]

Thank you Everyone ! I really appreciate the discussion and pictures.

Realistically, I doubt I would ever competitively Joust. I'm just too damn old (42) and a Type I Diabetic. Which means I heal really slow, and given my job I can't spend time off for injury. I can still fight heavy in the SCA occaisonally, but have to be careful.

The most I could realistically hope for would be to learn how to ride decently in armour, and put on a horse/armour/lance demonstration sometimes. And thats pie in the sky !

To find a horse that my wife and daughter could use, sounds to be quite the opposite of what makes a good jousting horse. For them, it HAS to be high headed, 3 or 5 gaited, and have tons of leg action. Or it just won't compete in English saddleseat shows.

Just for giggles, here is a link to the Friesan on the internet that I fell in Love with. It ONLY *laughs* costs twice what my truck is worth, but hey... if your gonna dream. Dream big.

http://www.maddisfriesianranch.com/inde ... det&id=195

Thanks again everyone, its been fun !

[Andrew McKinnon]

I'm just too damn old (42) and a Type I Diabetic.

I am 45 dude! I started riding at 42. But do what you enjoy! Above all be safe if you gotta go to work @ 9am on Monday...

[Lloyd]

I turn 48 in 4 weeks.

[Black Swan Designs]

Jeff will be 48 in 2 weeks. He started jousting when he was 40, but he had been riding for 20 years before that. 2 weeks ago he was kicking butt and taking names-



He intends to do it all over again in 3 weeks.

Gwen

[Andrew McKinnon]

Happy Birthday boys! Nice to know there are some older jousters than me. I jousted against Sir Bob Lawton, although he's a kiwi, he is still a man of high repute. Bob is 60 years young and, fit as a fiddle and acquitting himself well against competitors half his age!

[Kaliban]

i know 2 jousters that are still doing it at 60

[Tibbie Croser]

Leopold (the Clydesdale/TB cross) is a really striking, pretty horse in that photo. His appearance seems to be about halfway between the two breeds. What traits has he taken from each breed, such as strength, speed, etc.? Could he be considered an example of what a medieval warhorse might have looked like?

[Lloyd]

Jeff will be 48 in 2 weeks. He started jousting when he was 40, but he had been riding for 20 years before that. 2 weeks ago he was kicking butt and taking names-



He intends to do it all over again in 3 weeks.

Gwen

Gwen, that is an awesome shot!

[Black Swan Designs]

Isn't it though? Apache was an awesome horse.

If I may be allowed to brag a little bit- On the first day of jousting Toby and Steve had problems with their horses and had to withdraw. Jeff was doing great on Apache, so volunteered to take Steve and Toby's courses. Since it was a teams event, the other team said 'OK'.

Jeff ran all the courses for his team, scoring 29 points to the other teams combined score of 14 for that session.

How cool is that? Not too shabby for an old guy, I think.

Gwen

[Ken Mondschein]

Still getting my ducks in a row on this, glad I'm not ancient at 35! (And I've been riding since 19).

Jeffrey, I agree on the Friesians. It's a bone of contention between me and the girlfriend, since she thinks they're the greatest thing ever and draws them in her Trapper Keeper with hearts and rainbows, and I haven't ever ridden one that doesn't shake my fillings loose.

-Ken