SCA device + description help

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:40 pm

This is is the device I'm looking at registering, a green wyvryn on a field divided by a yellow chevron with the upper portion red and the lower black. Can someone help me translate that into herald speak, and I'm unsure how to conflict check it, this is my 1st attempt at a sca device/name claim. I think I have the Name paperwork figured out but I'm completely lost on the device.

Yea, my MS paint skills suck, I intend on cleaning it up more before I submit it, I didn't want to waste too much time if the AA says it wont work.

Edit fixed some of the shitty sentence structure.

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:02 pm

Per chevron Gules and Sable, a chevron Or overall a Wyvern proper.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:29 pm

Wouldn't that be "vert"?

IIRC, "Proper" with dragons is gold tummy and green everything else. Of course, I could well be misremembering that one.

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:35 pm

So would an all green dragon thing not conflict with a dragon thing proper?

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:46 pm

No, it would conflict. Differently colored bellies don't mean much difference, really.

Some might suggest that there is insufficient contrast between the field and the primary charge, but the chevron *technically* would get you out of the color-on-color rule.

Ingvarr · Post by **Ingvarr** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:51 pm

Even with the chevron, that's a lot of green on red and black. Do you think it will make it through?

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:00 pm

Ingvarr wrote:Even with the chevron, that's a lot of green on red and black. Do you think it will make it through?

Probably not without a German name and a lot of documentation.

As to the coloration of proper, I have no idea what proper would be for a wyvern. It could well be green body/red belly like the dragon.

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:11 pm

Saritor wrote:
Ingvarr wrote:Even with the chevron, that's a lot of green on red and black. Do you think it will make it through?

Probably not without a German name and a lot of documentation.

As to the coloration of proper, I have no idea what proper would be for a wyvern. It could well be green body/red belly like the dragon.

What would I need to change to make it more English/more passable? I was trying to avoid it looking like it was based off the Welsh red dragon.

kfinna · Post by **kfinna** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:32 pm

Chris,

How set on the arrangement of colors are you? I think changing the top portion to be gold and the chevron to be red may help with the color-on-color issue. (Or the top gold, the bottom red, and the chevron black...etc)

Edit: Read your edit, conflict checking the device as it stands.

Ingvarr · Post by **Ingvarr** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:35 pm

Saritor wrote:
Ingvarr wrote:Even with the chevron, that's a lot of green on red and black. Do you think it will make it through?

Probably not without a German name and a lot of documentation.

As to the coloration of proper, I have no idea what proper would be for a wyvern. It could well be green body/red belly like the dragon.

From what I could find, that appears to be correct.

That being said, Chris, if you could live with it having a red tummy tum, you don't have the color on color issues.

kfinna · Post by **kfinna** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:08 pm

Ingvarr, I'm not sure changing the stomach to red solves the problem of color-on-color.

Chris, I find no conflicts for your device (though, as always, I could have missed something.) The closest I got was "Per chevron gules and sable, a chevron cotised Or and overall a dolphin haurient argent." A white dolphin is significantly different from a green wyvern, therefore the devices are distinct.

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:10 pm

Ingvarr wrote:
Saritor wrote:
Ingvarr wrote:Even with the chevron, that's a lot of green on red and black. Do you think it will make it through?

Probably not without a German name and a lot of documentation.

As to the coloration of proper, I have no idea what proper would be for a wyvern. It could well be green body/red belly like the dragon.
From what I could find, that appears to be correct.

That being said, Chris, if you could live with it having a red tummy tum, you don't have the color on color issues.

I have no Objections to a red, or other colored belly on the wyvryn

kfinna wrote:Chris,

How set on the arrangement of colors are you? I think changing the top portion to be gold and the chevron to be red may help with the color-on-color issue. (Or the top gold, the bottom red, and the chevron black...etc)

I'd have no problem with switching the chevron and upper colors.

If this increases its chances of being accepted I'm fine with it.

kfinna · Post by **kfinna** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:44 pm

Both versions free of conflict still, as far as I can tell.

Made a couple mockups -

brewer · Post by **brewer** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:52 pm

kfinna wrote:Ingvarr, I'm not sure changing the stomach to red solves the problem of color-on-color.

Chris, I find no conflicts for your device (though, as always, I could have missed something.) The closest I got was "Per chevron gules and sable, a chevron cotised Or and overall a dolphin haurient argent." A white dolphin is significantly different from a green wyvern, therefore the devices are distinct.

IIRC, it's still only one CD, because isn't cotised considered merely a complex line?

Bob

Ingvarr · Post by **Ingvarr** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:58 pm

kfinna wrote:Ingvarr, I'm not sure changing the stomach to red solves the problem of color-on-color.

But green with a red, actually light red belly is proper coloring for a wyvern and unless I'm mistaken proper on color is acceptable.

kfinna · Post by **kfinna** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:01 pm

Brewer, technically there are three CDs between the two.

1. Change of main charge type - wyvern to dolphin
2. Change of main charge color - vert to argent
3. Change of ordinary division line - plain to cotised.

I mistyped up above. It's a 'substantial' difference, not a 'significant' difference. Pertinent section of the RfS, unless I'm reading it wrong (which is entirely possible, and has happened before)

"Argent, a fess sable does not conflict with Argent, a lion sable. Vert, two eagles and a maunch argent does not conflict with Vert, three lozenges argent. Azure, a fess between three cups Or does not conflict with Azure, a chevron between three cups Or. In each case the designs are simple and the type of every primary charge has been substantially changed."

In Chris's case, the only primary charge is his wyvern.

Edit: Nope, gotta change either the background or the wyvern's color.

"You cannot use proper to cheat on the rule of tincture. Charges blazoned as proper are still either light or dark, and must be placed on an appropriate tincture. A tree blasted proper is still a dark color (brown) and cannot be placed on a color." http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/lessons/lesson06.html

doubleedit: Let me know if I start to become a pain in the ass, I'm trying to be helpful and thorough and don't always know quite when to shut up ^^;

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:34 pm

How about changing the sable to a dark fur: ermines or pean?

Chris' nice big green wyvern is so very dominantly a tincture his field should be of a fur or a metal. Even both metals, given a tincture for the chevron. "Metal-ermined-some-tincture" might help too. With the wyvern mainly vert, I should choose gules. Not azure; muds together with vert to a bewildering degree if you glance in a hurry. The fur erminois is Or-ermined-sable.

How about a fur for the chevron, alternatively, Chris19d? Or sacrificing the chevron altogether and parting the field per chevron metal and tincture? Just picking apart and shuffling all elements, and trying to cover all possibilities.

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:36 pm

Thanks I appreciate you guys going through the trouble of helping me with this. After seeing the red belly on the dragon I kinda like it, would either version would work w the wyvryn proper.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:45 pm

Nobody's thinking about trying to fur the wyvern yet; not sure we'd want to. Even with a pretty red waistcoat. But to put it mildly, it would escape both Rule of Tincture problems and conflict.

Robert of Canterbury · Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:18 am

Chris,

I really like the size of your wyvern as you have drawn it. It fills the field properly. Beasts & Monsters are all too often drawn too small.

(kfinna, I'm sorry to say, I think the way you've drawn it is much too small, he looks like he's going to rattle around on the field..)

You might even be able to get away with just a Green Wyvern, (Red bellied or not, as you choose) on a yellow field.

Or, A Wyvern Vert.

Outstandingly classical, two colours, (Three with the belly) one charge, conceiveably english. (There are a couple of dozen entries for a single wivern in Papworth's ordinary (the bible of English Armoury), one is Argent, a Wivern Gules)

I've given it a quick check, and it might squeeze through. If anyone with better O&A-fu can give it a look?

chris19d · Post by **chris19d** » Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:26 pm

The wyvryn proper on the argent field looks nice, if AA says it works I'll track down a local herald for the paperwork.