Plastic is it really that much cheaper?

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 10:00 pm

I keep seeing post claiming that plastic is so good because it is so cheap. I sat down and worked the numbers on the gear I am putting together and this is what I got. Note I am making this myself in someone elseâ€™s shop and it is not 100% historical but it is closer than many SCA kits and just my starter get on the field in my gear kit.

1) Illusion Armoring Bascinet 95$
2) CoP after steel plates and velvet and linen cover 65$
3) Elbows, shoulder, and knee cops from Cet 40$
4) Leather and steel to create 14th C German legs and vambraces 100$
5) Arming coat 80$
6) Gorget 20$
7) Dimi Guants 30$

Grand total $430

Now dark victory sells their armor for $230 with out the helm or the arming coat, which is $180 of my cost. So if I were to by DV armor and the helm and make my arming coat I only save $20. Granted the DV armor is assembled and I have to assemble the leather and steel parts of my armor myself but I am willing to do the effort to look good.

(Note I only use DV armor as an example because it is the cheapest price I know of, I have nothing against the armory)

Flonzy (who is working on armor right now)

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy

[This message has been edited by flonzy (edited 02-27-2003).]

Benalishlancer · Post by **Benalishlancer** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 10:38 pm

Flonzy, I see one problem with your arguement:

"4) Leather and steel to create 14th C German legs and vambraces 100$"

That is a money saving option. What if you had paid an armourer to make those 14th C german legs and vambraces or bought them off the shelf? That would definetly increase your costs. However you have aknowledged that, so do not take this as an attack.

As for the Dark Victory being almost the same price as the steel armor, once again, thats someone selling armor, so it will be more expensive than the home made stuff.

Plastic sheets will cost money. So will sheets of steel. Prices will vary depending on your area. However, the evil plastic barrels can be had for free (or nearly free). Plus working the plastic is a lot easier for the average joe than steel. However, it may come out ugly, or it may come out decently. It's all a matter of how much effort is put into it.

I have no objection with plastic so long as it is done decently and covered. That's my two cents on the subject anyways.

Jareth · Post by **Jareth** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:12 pm

IMO, the cost of the shop and tools should be factored in.

Most people can get used pickle barrels for free. That doesn't mean much, you can get scrap metal pretty cheap as well, if you don't mind having to strip paint.

On the other hand, if I want to work metal...I need a lot more tools, and I need someplace where I can make noise. My downstairs neighbor gets unhappy with me if I hammer metal in the living room of my apartment. *chuckle*

IMO, its not fair to just simply discount how valuable a shop is. I *still* don't have a place to work metal. I've been thinking of moving to a house so that I would have a workshop. In my area, that's an extra $1000/month rent. :/

Also, once you have a form made...Making subsequent pieces of plastic armor is *fast*.

So, no...The *material* to make plastic armor is not significantly cheaper.

The end product, however, is.

(I still make leather-covered plastic armor for LARP's.)

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:26 pm

Mild Steel lamellar plates from Silk Roads Designs-$1 each (IIRC, Norman's commercial site is currently down).

Stainless Steel lamellar plates from GAA- $.42 each (for 350).

Stainless Steel plates from White Mountain Armoury- $.44 each (for 350)

Leather Lamellar plates from Hoseki Leather- $.60 each (for 350)

Leather Lamellar Plates from Global Effects- $.45 each (for 350)

Plastic lamellar plates from Noble Plastics- $.35 each (for 350). $.30 each for black.

~Wil

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:46 am

Well, I have to dissagree iwht Flonzy on this one. Pickel barrel plastic is often free. You can work it with aviation snips and a cordless drill. If you add in the fact that most people don't fight in accurate clothing(myself included, you've cut the cost down considerably. You're left with the helm being the big ticket item, as it should be.
Slainte,
Fearghus

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How long will we fight? We will fight until Hell freezes over. Then we fight on the ice.
Fearghus' Homepage

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 8:38 am

4' x 8' x 1/8" thick sheet of HDPE: 45 dollars.

1/2 hide of 12oz leather, 200+ dollars.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 8:49 am

err... not quite. there are plenty of places to get leather MUCH cheaper than that.

http://www.twleather.com/twlstar.htm
1-800-477-9923
A NEW SHIPMENT HAS JUST ARRIVED!
MFG. SELECT SKIRTING SIDES. A good quality skirting at a great price! Professional and novice saddle makers use this skirting. It works well for all saddle and tack repair, too. Stamps, oils & dyes well. 20-22 sq. ft. avg. Weights: 12/14 to 15/17 oz. Priced by the side

Regualr
Sale!
Premium Select
$109.00
$99.00
Select
$99.00
$89.00
Standard
$89.00
$79.00
80 bux for a 22 square feet hunk of 16 oz leather. still, the plastic is cheaper, but dont let a 200 dollar price tag keep you from using more authentic materials.

-+G

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:43 am

Well I have to admit I can't beat free like Fearghus has suggested.

Benalishlancer you can by splinted armor for about $100 more than I am making it. I am making it so it looks nice, many cheap pieces of armor looks cheap.

Jareth you don't need a whole shop to make the kit I am. The only thing you need extra to make my kit vs. plastic is the shears to cut the metal, which could be done with a jigsaw where shears are not available. The other tools to drill holes and set rivets are needed to work plastic too. I live in an apartment also. With the issue of speed there is no metal shaping to be done so I would say it is the same speed. Also as an alternative for the splints a guy on ebay sells 12 for $14.

Edwin I'm with Rev. George your price is too high on the leather. As stated I got enough to do my arms and legs plus the metal for $100.

As stated I guess I can't beat the price of making your own plastic armor, but my gear will fit better and be well padded and safer. I just can't win in the cheap issue but on the quality issue there is no comparison. I donâ€™t consider $430 to look decent and be safe a high price. But thatâ€™s me.

I hope to finish the kit in early May, I have 2 living history events to get ready and arming jacket to make so right now and donâ€™t have time for the armor but when I get it done I will take pictures and add it to the persona in a box section.

Flonzy

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Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/flonzy

Heairn · Post by **Heairn** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by flonzy:


1) Illusion Armoring Bascinet 95$
2) CoP after steel plates and velvet and linen cover 65$
3) Elbows, shoulder, and knee cops from Cet 40$
4) Leather and steel to create 14th C German legs and vambraces 100$
5) Arming coat 80$
6) Gorget 20$
7) Dimi Guants 30$

Grand total $430

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also part of this consideration: I'd MUCH Rather take a Bedford shot to my side or back in my plastic breastplate/backplate than in a COP. owtch. Basically..the comparison is an apples to oranges thing. For equivalent coverage and protection, for armor that is "ready to wear".. plastic is less expensive.

For $55 (here in Pittsburgh) you get enough plastic in a 4X8 sheet to do the torso, legs, arms, gorget, and shoulders. And.. you don't need a shop or metalworking skills to shape plastic.. you *do* need that to do metal.

I do use modern materials in my armor.. but I do my best not to let you see them:

http://www.clanoldcastle.com/photos/armingcoat5.jpg

just my thoughts..
Malcolm

Patrick · Post by **Patrick** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:48 pm

I am turning into a champion for steel, here!

I can buy a sheet of 16 guage steel for $33 last time I checked (a year ago). From that, I can make two suits of armor to fit me (6', 242 pounds, 42" chest) sans helms. The helms I make from 14 gauge.

Tools:
-jigsaw
-file to deburr edges
-drill
-hammer (6 oz for rivets, 32 oz for shaping metal)
-stump

The only tool that is there that you don't need for plastic is the jigsaw. If you figure a set of shears for the plastic would set you back $15, the jigsaw will cost about $40. So, you save maybe $25 on tools.

Now, let's get creative. If you want to recycle plastic barrels, go ahead. But I can get free metal, too. Roadsigns make light, rigid armor and can be had for free from the highway maintenance folks. Scrap steel is easy to come by, if you keep your eyes open. In fact, I would have a harder time getting plastic barrels in Fairbanks than metal to recycle into armor! I use the sheets of steel because I prefer to work with new metal.

The real difference is that there honestly is more effort in the steel armor. It takes longer to make. If I were starting from scratch, it would take me about a week, maybe 10 days, of working in my free time (evenings and weekends) to make a complete suit of armor, noggin to knees, with articulated gauntlets, full breast and back, etc. from steel. I am guessing I would spend about 1/2 to 2/3 as long in plastic. Maybe even less, once I had some experience working with the materials.

So, if you want to be in armor really fast, the plastic would do it. But the cost factor is negligible.

Now, this is when making your own. As far as buying it new, of course the plastic is cheaper. It takes less skill to make ugly plastic armor than decent steel armor. But compare inexpensive steel (Illusion or Armorworks or Truehearth) to plastic from Egg or Alchemy. Both of those folks put a bit more time into making armor look decent, as opposed to just comparing the cheapest available plastic armor. Not quite the price break you get when you buy the Dark Victory gear. It largely comes down to time and skill at this point, not material cost.

-Patrick

Dark Victory Armory · Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:39 pm

Can't speak to the steel part, but the basics of plastic barrel armor would break down to this:

Barrels 2 @ 5-20 bucks.
Let's say $20
a couple of rivets
$1.00
Wax pencil to trace
$.50
550 cord
$5.00
Cardboard for patterning
Free

$26.50 and about 5-20 hours to make for a newby.

I just can't see steel being made for much less than that.

Dieterick
Dark Victory Armory
http://plasticarmor.com

Patrick · Post by **Patrick** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:41 am

That's for the materials, alone. Doesn't take into account the tools. I admit the cost is higher on steel for tools. By about $25. Woop.

If starting with new materials, steel will be cheaper than plastic, but using leather straps and actual buckles instead of strings to hold the parts on will bring the cost up a little.

If you are starting with new materials, you need a way to shape the plastic. This generally means heat. If you love your wife, you probably won't use her oven for this.

Frankly, it amazes me how much some people will spend on the materials to make their own armor, no matter what the material. I can make a suit of steel armor, sans helmet, for under $50, starting with half a sheet of steel, some leather for straps, a few buckles, and a handful of rivets. Plastic won't be significantly cheaper, given new materials. If we are talking about scrounged/discarded materials, I can take the steel out of the equation and make a suit for about $34. Probably less. Yeah, the plastic example above is even cheaper and takes less time, but if you just give up a movie and two pizzas, you have paid for the armor I describe.

Mine is more work. But it protects better, looks better, and makes me feel more "real" on the field.

-Patrick

I admit

william · Post by **william** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:00 am

Hi!

As sad as it is - but for me plastic is the cheaper option for a couple of reasons:

- I can get HDPE at half the price of decent leather suitable for armouring

- If I purchase steel items in the US I have to pay transatlantic shipping. We're a "natives only" group so the APO deal is a little difficult for us.

- If I wanted to deal with steel I'd have to rent a workshop. I'm living in an appartment in the centre of town so the rent alone would eat the hair off my head. Plastic can be done on the balcony or in the basement as the ammount of noise is controllable.

It might depend on where you live but in some cases "p" stuff is the cheaper alternative.

Will

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* Noli fortius me ferire *

Ld. William of Llanwarne
Shire of Two Seas, Drachenwald, SCA

Sebastian K · Post by **Sebastian K** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:29 am

I would like to take a moment to address Williams concerns:

There are at least three armourers that will do production work here in Germany, Christine Dahm from Meadowmarsh. She is Charlie's successor. Then there is the former project "Miles" in Dortmund, who now operate independently of another in two shops. These also all make helmets. Then there is Tobias Schnittgen over at Battleheat, no SCA helmets but the rest is very decent. There is *shudder* Hammerkunst, and there is an SCA armoury in Belgium. Asher der JÃ¤ger from our very own AA will be moving to K-Town soon, and Lord Ceawlin operates his self service armoury in Frankfurt. He helped Toke make a set of 3/4 legs for 25 Euro total. There are Lords Guido and BjÃ¶rn in Rheingold/respective Drei Eichen who will do limited production work. Lord Guido has a cousin that makes beautiful SCA helmets (later period among them) for superlative prices and what I have seen great quality). There are two more people in my neigbourhood who have started hammering, so I think we are in much better shape than a few years back.

About the shipping problem: A 70 pound package snail mail will set you back about80$ if I recall correctly. If you have someone smart doing the packaging and declaring then you are fine.

About money: I do know and I have busted my head against the wall. Leather is much more expensive here than over in the states. But you can still work to get plate armour cheaply and faily silent, assuming you can peen a rivet now and then. Steel is also much cheaper than leather.

Helmet: Buy it. Giles sometimes has very nice affordable helmets, too

Body: Make a Wisby COP. Have somebody with a shear cut it for you (I will gladly do so for my friends in Two Seas and elsewhere). Cost of Materials for 1.5mm mild steel for average person: 15 Euro. Deburr by hand, make outer shell from Jeans type or other sturdy fabric. Total cost including rivets and such can be under 30â‚¬. No dishing or other loud metal forming will be necessary.

Arms, Legs, shoulders: Get Cops from somewhere, Rough from the hammer comes to mind, but you can basically ask any of the armourers to make them. Cost for cops should not be very high, maybe 50-60 Euro. Make a floating articulation with splinted leather. Leather which is suitable for splints can be had for about 30â‚¬ per square meter. A square meter is a lot of leather, it sufficed easily for my thighs, vambraces and mor. And you know how big I am

Splints yopu can buy from a local steel supllier (Flachstangen). Depending on what you want cost will vary 3mm*12mm for example is 1.17â‚¬ per meter tax included. YOu can cut them with a normal "BÃ¼gelsÃ¤ge" with metal blades. All in all I would guesstimate no more than 150â‚¬ total for legs, arms and shoulder, maybe 190 if you want steel spaulders.

That comes to about say 180 Euro total without the helm or Gorget and hand protection. Lets say 10 Euro for heavy leather material for half gaunts (or buy from Giles) and 25 or 30 more for Gorget from Giles. Total 220 withou a helm. I think that is a pretty darn good price. And you will not be wanting to replace it on the basis of looks alonr quite so soon.

If you want bring your fighters down to Cologne for a workshop. We can cut plates and splints and work on otehr stuff too.

Regards

Sebastian

[This message has been edited by Vallconnan (edited 03-01-2003).]

william · Post by **william** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:09 am

@sebastian:

Thanks for the detailed info. I was aware of most of the armourers you have mentioned and am at the moment planning to do some business w/ Guido for my new kit (if he finds the time). I definitely agree that the situation has improved in general. That does, however, not affect Two Seas in a way that I would change the statement I have made. Why?

- The people you have mentioned are located in an area about 400km away from us. So the DIY options aren't that cheap if you add all the cost. And people like Guido and Bjorn charge as much as US armouries of the same level (and it's good that they do so as it will keep them in business). So for us there's no reall saving in this.

- I don't get my <insert improper language here> lazy group to move their butts. It's like hearding a tranquilized Kindergarten. Either I present everything to them or nothing is happening. As you might recall mundane crap currently does hinder me in doing these things, e.g. take the car, fill it with lazy Two Seas fighters and drive them down to Frankfurt for an armouring weekend. And things are getting worse on my end ... So doing some stuff in the evening hours gets us further - but limits us to "P" stuff at the moment.

- Another thing is: I think the cheapest safe stuff I can make from HDPE will still be below your cost. It will need a wide tunic for coverage but will cost less and need very little maintenance. Now, my guys quarrel about every cent they have to spend. Yep, I know that's sad and it does raise the question of dedication and "what do you want?". I could do the thing I can do best and p*ss them off if they don't follow my concept. But I *do* need more fighters to establish regular armoured combat activities. So I am stuck with getting them out on the field asap (I'm saving/raising money for loaner gear right now).

Anyhow - I thank you for your offer to help. If there will be somebody in Two Seas with higher standards we will definitely come back to that

!

BTW: I'll be in Duesseldorf on business the morning of April 5th (Sat.). Any kind of activity/practice going on afterwards that I could join?

Cheers,

Will

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* Noli fortius me ferire *

Ld. William of Llanwarne
Shire of Two Seas, Drachenwald, SCA

adric · Post by **adric** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 10:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Patrick:
This generally means heat. If you love your wife, you probably won't use her oven for this.

-Patrick

I admit<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off I LOVE My WIFE!!!
Secondly, it's not her oven, as she cant cook to save her life.

All you folks looking to lose weight, eat at my house for a while with her cooking. The pounds just melt away!!

Thirdly - Check the temp before you put the kydex in to bake. 450 for 20 min is NOT a good thing!!!

I make the things i do out of kydex and abs and leather because in my appartment i can.

Compaired to steel kydex is way expensive!!! 100+$/sheet, but easy to mold, cut, AND COVER! There is no excuse for long term exposed plastic. Most "poor" folks should be able to glue cloth or leather to plastic by thier 3rd event!

Hummm - I think i'll slow cook some ribs for to nite! - Love MY oven!