Why are they assembled this way?

[Halbrust]

It has speroconical shape riveted of four iron parts - the back and the front ones overlap the side ones and have waved edges, a rivet being in the center of each wave. All the four parts of the helm are covered with copper sheet. A four-cornered rosette with a pike is riveted to each side piece.

Why do the front and back overlap the sides? The only reason I can think of is that it adds greater protection to the forehead area. Watching SCA fighting (not fighting myself yet) many more blows connect to the side of the helmet than they do the front. Is that one of the glaring differences between SCA and the actual sword fighting we portray?

These helmets are the inspiration of the helmet I am trying to create. I will be using more panels, and overlapping them left over right. But I have a need to know what it is I’m doing differently from period, and why I’m doing it different.

A small follow up to that is if anyone knows of an aesthetically similar helmet that is joined in a way as I want to. Where each panel has one side riveted on the outside of it’s sister plate, while the other side is riveted on the inner.

[Seved Ribbing]

FYI...

From my limited experience, I believe it is to reduce the chance of a sword or spear catching the overlap and throwing the wearer off balance.

I wear a COP and I have been told that the way the plates are layered (lower over laps the upper) it is for a horseman. The layering prevents a spear from coming up and under the plates.

[Ckanite]

Something that won't really some into play in sca combat I don't think yes? or would rattan really grab that small of an edge?

[Sean Powell]

SCA Rattan combat focuses on delivering a stout blow similar to some tourneys of peace. It is heavily debated what if anything the basic SCAdian 'flat-snap' would do to an iron helm with a steel sword. Given the number of Eastern European reenactors swinging blunted steel at metal helms and the distinct lack of wide-spread concussions I think we can state that worrying about overlap on the side vs the front has very little to do with SCA combat.

(in my opinion) As a generality you will find that armor layers in such a way as to provide movement first, shed frontal attacks to the side second and ascetics 3rd. Since a helm has no moving parts the plates are layered such that arrows, spear tips and lances will deflect sideways and not catch at the overlap. This is unlike elbows where the articulation faces both forward and backward and weapons possess a small likelihood of being caught in the lames (until the 16th century when they flare the vambrace and attach it over the articulation so the articulation is shielded.

Ultimately it's just cool to build armor the way they did just to mimic the way they did it.

Sean

[AwP]

I actually think it might just be ease of construction and skipping on the spangle of the spanglehelm. Obviously it's just my opinion since nobody really knows for sure. Of course some of the decorative bits might belie that theory a bit, but a lot of spanglehelms had decorative bits too, so you still end up ahead.

[Steve S.]

I wear a COP and I have been told that the way the plates are layered (lower over laps the upper) it is for a horseman. The layering prevents a spear from coming up and under the plates.

Sorry for the thread derail, but I no longer believe this is the case. I may have been the instigator of this idea; at least I said the same thing years ago when I built my first COPs. I changed the overlap so that they would overlap downward:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gall ... Plates.htm

Having researched this again and experimented making new coats of plates, I don't think this has anything to do with protection.

I believe it is all about tailoring.

If you have the plates overlap downwards, the plates tend to flare open away from the body. If you overlap them upwards, each plate tends to flare open towards the body. Your body, of course, stops this movement, but the result is that the plates hug the body in a more form-fitting manner.

This is my new opinion on coats of plates and the overlapping reasoning.

Steve

[Odd]

I wear a COP and I have been told that the way the plates are layered (lower over laps the upper) it is for a horseman. The layering prevents a spear from coming up and under the plates.

Sorry for the thread derail, but I no longer believe this is the case. I may have been the instigator of this idea; at least I said the same thing years ago when I built my first COPs. I changed the overlap so that they would overlap downward:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/photo_gall ... Plates.htm

Having researched this again and experimented making new coats of plates, I don't think this has anything to do with protection.

I believe it is all about tailoring.

If you have the plates overlap downwards, the plates tend to flare open away from the body. If you overlap them upwards, each plate tends to flare open towards the body. Your body, of course, stops this movement, but the result is that the plates hug the body in a more form-fitting manner.

This is my new opinion on coats of plates and the overlapping reasoning.

Steve

That's an interesting idea, but would it work the same way with Lamellar?

Edit: About the helm, I kinda agree with the snagging bit. But that doesn't explain why the back plate overlaps the sides. For further streamlining, it would make sense for the sides to overlap the back as well, so you would have minimal snag. I think it's a combination of snag prevention, and aesthetics.

[raito]

How about the fact that most helms are not circular, but ovoid?

[Norman]

Why do the front and back overlap the sides?

After looking at a batch of these and related helmets, I believe this is because this design "evolved" from the early Sassanian Spangenhelms with decorative frames.
With the frame pretty much equaling the "filler" plates in size, some armourers went from using 4 frame plates and 4 fillers to 2 frame plates and 2 fillers.
So - start with these two Sassanian helmets (probably both around 2-4 century):


(notice BTW that this is also the parent of the well known "Frankish" Spangen design)

Compare to the attached images of "eight panel" "Caucas styled" helmets of the same "nationality" as the helmet style you start this discussion with.
Note that the Kazazovo helmet is the same basic pattern as the above Sassanid model except that it has gone from a "ridge" helm pattern to one with the focal central finial.
(notice that the Sassanid helmet is already a "fake ridge" - the frame plate that goes front to back is actualy two plates with a central plate connecting them - so we are possibly seeing the begining of the move from "ridge" to the central finial)

Now note how on the following linked four panel helmet - Stolbishe, the distinction between inner and outer plates is exagerated and notice how the two outer plates with the circle cutout are very much related to the above Sassanian helmet's "spangen frame" except that the circle cutout seems to have migrated downwards.
http://www.south-rus.narod.ru/images/stolbische3.jpg

These helmets are the inspiration of the helmet I am trying to create. I will be using more panels, and overlapping them left over right ...if anyone knows of an aesthetically similar helmet that is joined in a way as I want to. Where each panel has one side riveted on the outside of it’s sister plate, while the other side is riveted on the inner.

As per my examples -- there are eight panel helmets from the same kingdom. You can use those as your model. But if you do it would have four main panels - front, back, left, right, and filler plates between.

If I understand your plan correctly, there is a separate evolution of many-piece helmets which originates from lamellar helmets -- but these are not relatives to your inspiration.
These range from Central Asia generaly Eastwards with Japanese helmets as the most famous descendants of this structure.

[Signo]

Norman, that first helm you posted, was supposed to be covered with some canvas or other material? The shape of those rivets suggest me that there was something beneath them.

[Norman]

Norman, that first helm you posted, was supposed to be covered with some canvas or other material? The shape of those rivets suggest me that there was something beneath them.

It is covered in silver - that is why it is all white after almost 2 thousand years.
Sassanid helmets often have fairly protruding rivet heads. I don't believe anything fit under it.
It may be that fairly tightly spaced large rivet heads acted as another level of "pading" from a blow.

incidentaly, to the original discussion -- the armourers of these helmets had the opposite concern to snagging -- the rivets would be far more snaggy themselves than a mere overlap between plates
(likewise, note how protruding the rivets on the Kazazovo helmet are)

[Brennainn]

I cannot speak as to the original intent of the desigeners.
I will say that the 4 panel helm is a similar comstruction to a multi plate Kabuto. They are both helmets that have no 'frame', but are just plates that are riveted together.
The 4 panel is easier to make, the front and back panels for a frame for the side 2. When making helmets and trying to follow the original, I find that often times they did what they did becuase it was a simple means of manufacture, or at least this is what I assume after making them.
Case in point, try making a Zunari kabuto sometime. They are really really easy.
Thanks,
Brennainn

[Odd]

Norman, that first helm you posted, was supposed to be covered with some canvas or other material? The shape of those rivets suggest me that there was something beneath them.

It is covered in silver - that is why it is all white after almost 2 thousand years.
Sassanid helmets often have fairly protruding rivet heads. I don't believe anything fit under it.
It may be that fairly tightly spaced large rivet heads acted as another level of "pading" from a blow.

incidentaly, to the original discussion -- the armourers of these helmets had the opposite concern to snagging -- the rivets would be far more snaggy themselves than a mere overlap between plates
(likewise, note how protruding the rivets on the Kazazovo helmet are)

My thinking was that a spear, arrow, or sword point might work under a plate, where it would skip off the rounded surface of the rivet, or a rivet might shear off, but leave the plate to protect the noodle.