"No Plastic" Options... Cover Ups...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:53 pm

Ok... So, I've got several items of the plastic nature... either on their way to me, or sitting in front of me... Its the loaner gear stuff that folks have been most willing to donate so far...

While its intended to be loaner gear, and thus, crappy looking... Its gonna be used in Atlantia, and I'd love to follow the new rule...

So... Gonna cover it.

My questions to yous fighters is this...

What do you cover your plastic with, how, and with what results.

At the moment, the Plastic COP plates are easy, gotta canvas cover to attach them to...

The greaves and cuisses however, are a different story...

Suggestions?

Also... Warclub sent me an injection molded sword cup hilt (rubber or plastic). I've never even heard of one of these before... Its tough as nails... but light as hell...

It'll definately be a loaner sword, as I like a bit o' weight in my grip... but my supplimentary question is this...

Are they legal in Atlantia? I've never seen anybody here use one... and if so... do you have to cover it? (as its not armour, but a part of a weapon) How does the new rule handle it? Or was there an old rule already in place?

But then, I'm now rambling... sorry...

------------------
Matthew Broadway (mattbroadway1974@yahoo.com)
Founder of The Armour Archive
Jack of All Trades... Master of none.

Patrick · Post by **Patrick** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:38 pm

I once saw a fellow with aluminum cuisses covered with suede leather. Now, suede is a split leather and as far as I know, not actually authentic, but it sure looks better than roadsigns. He also had decorative rivets around the edges of the cuisses, which served to hold the leather even more than the contact cement.

Barring that, you can use fabric glued to the plastic.

Another thing I have seen done is a pair of ridiculously baggy trousers over the leg armor. It hides it but makes the wearer look like a clown. "Run! It's Sir Boffo of the Mucking Big Pants!"

Arms of plastic could be hidden with a 14th century jupon very easily.

Frankly, there is no reason for plastic to be visible on the field. The only plastic in my kit was my cup and that was inside my pants. And, yes, I made all of my kit myself.

-Patrick

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:44 pm

In addition to surcoats and gluing plain fabric to plastic items, some fighters glue suede, canvas, velvets or thin leathers to their plastic. Often you will use rivets to help attach the materials to the plastic or to enhance the look.

muttman · Post by **muttman** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:55 pm

"Are they legal in Atlantia? I've never seen anybody here use one... and if so... do you have to cover it? (as its not armour, but a part of a weapon) How does the new rule handle it? Or was there an old rule already in place?"

As far as I understand having read the new rule, the balder cuphilts are legal and not required to be covered. I say this with the caveat that I am not an Atlantean fighter but the new rule you guys have has sparked some conversation up here in the Northern Army, so I have read up on it and am aware of whats going on.
Still, better check with your marshalls.
BTW, I use the Balder cup hilts and I love them! You may want to give them a try!
John

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:11 pm

mock-fabric covered plate is a good idea. COP accomplishes this out of hand. Poofy pants covers leg armor. Also, wearing chain chausses over plas*** reinforcements hides them well, I understand.
my $.02

HvR · Post by **HvR** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:08 am

I trained with my fighter marshal for 3 months before I was able to get a helm and once I had that the only way to get onto the field rapidly was to build with plastic. I loathe the appearance of plastic. I made my first set of legs and arms completely out of plastic, and the second set with steel knees and elbows until my steel set arrives from scaworld.com formerly the armour store, you can see why I have been waiting so long for my period armour and had to go with plastic to get on the field.

To the point - the first set I made I used 3M super 77 spray glue adhesive and used a slightly more expensive higher grade leather and it has held up beautifully. The second set I made I used a cheaper leather - more firm - from Bruettan's leather http://www.brettunsvillage.com/leather/ referred to as a Beagle Tan and I used contact flooring cement purchased at Menards. You will pay many $$ to buy Barge Cement in enough of a quantity to equal a $5 quart of flooring contact cement. I have found that both adhesives have performed extremely well keeping the leather adhered. If I had to do another set I would use the contact cement again as it was much easier to work with and you don't have to clamp the leather to the pieces until the glue dries.

I used 1/8 diameter round head rivets around the edges to keep the leather from getting pulled from the armour should an edge get caught. Also found that the softer higher quality leather is performing better and holding up better than the less expensive firmer leather. The softer leather does not seem to want to mar, scratch and take on the scuff marks that the latter does. The firmer leather has a really nice pebbled leather appearance but I can already tell that it will not last as long as it is prone to scratches and cutting - does not go through the leather, but it is already starting to look a little "bruised and cut" in a few places after six months. Price difference: buy a 3-4 oz garment or upholstery leather (look for something that has a "glovey" description or a "soft" temperament) you will need about 16 to 18 square feet sized hide to cover arms and legs - a good price for a quality piece / hide should run you around $60. The less expensive beagle type hide from Bruettan will only run you $30 delivered to your door. No complaints about it, but I am finding that I am having to clean scuff marks from the leather monthly where I did not have to ever on the soft glovey leather.

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:41 am

hand protection is not required to be covered at this time.

one word of caution about these baldar hilts. if you block with your basket make sure that you are turning the hilt so that the block hits the face of the basket and not the sides. i have folded a fairly high number of these over with shots and they hit the back of the hand prety sharply. so please be aware of your hand position when blocking and try to hit the center of the hilt. they really need some real enforcement around the edge of the hitl.

regards
logan

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by muttman:
"Are they legal in Atlantia? I've never seen anybody here use one... and if so... do you have to cover it? (as its not armour, but a part of a weapon) How does the new rule handle it? Or was there an old rule already in place?"

As far as I understand having read the new rule, the balder cuphilts are legal and not required to be covered. I say this with the caveat that I am not an Atlantean fighter but the new rule you guys have has sparked some conversation up here in the Northern Army, so I have read up on it and am aware of whats going on.
Still, better check with your marshalls.
BTW, I use the Balder cup hilts and I love them! You may want to give them a try!
John

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Andrew Grey · Post by **Andrew Grey** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 3:37 am

I switched from full plate cuisses to kydex legs about 2 years ago. The purist in me would not go out on the field with visible plastic so I did some research.

My persona is based in 1345 England so using a splinted cuisse is very appropriate and easily done with kydex. My leg armour is covered with black suede attached with 3M adhesive and rivets. I drilled lines of holes in the kydex that would give the appearance of a splinted cuisse.

I must say that it look much better than I thought was possible with plastic. And note that more than a few purist friends of mine have asked me which armourer built the German-splinted legs.

Andrew

[This message has been edited by Andrew Grey (edited 02-20-2003).]

muttman · Post by **muttman** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:37 am

hand protection is not required to be covered at this time.
one word of caution about these baldar hilts. if you block with your basket make sure that you are turning the hilt so that the block hits the face of the basket and not the sides. i have folded a fairly high number of these over with shots and they hit the back of the hand prety sharply. so please be aware of your hand position when blocking and try to hit the center of the hilt. they really need some real enforcement around the edge of the hitl.

regards
logan

Duke Logan,
I`ve been using the balder hilts since Pennsic and I have not had this happen to me yet, or if it has I was unaware that it happened. (I wear a pretty good demi gaunt)I do catch a fair few shots on my basket so I appreciate the heads up! I`ll be paying a little more attention to that from now on.
Thanks
John

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:31 am

sounds like you have been blocking properly then (ie rolling your wrist so your fist faces the sword and not the back of your hand. if you grab the hilt between your hands and give it a squeeze you will find that the sides collapse pretty easily. glad to hear that youve not had any problems with them thus far. good technique affords many benefits.

regards
logan

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by muttman:
hand protection is not required to be covered at this time.
one word of caution about these baldar hilts. if you block with your basket make sure that you are turning the hilt so that the block hits the face of the basket and not the sides. i have folded a fairly high number of these over with shots and they hit the back of the hand prety sharply. so please be aware of your hand position when blocking and try to hit the center of the hilt. they really need some real enforcement around the edge of the hitl.

regards
logan

Duke Logan,
I`ve been using the balder hilts since Pennsic and I have not had this happen to me yet, or if it has I was unaware that it happened. (I wear a pretty good demi gaunt)I do catch a fair few shots on my basket so I appreciate the heads up! I`ll be paying a little more attention to that from now on.
Thanks
John<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tristan vom Schwarzwald · Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:25 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andrew Grey:
[B]I switched from full plate cuisses to kydex legs about 2 years ago. The purist in me would not go out on the field with visible plastic so I did some research.

My persona is based in 1345 England so using a splinted cuisse is very appropriate and easily done with kydex. My leg armour is covered with black suede attached with 3M adhesive and rivets. I drilled lines of holes in the kydex that would give the appearance of a splinted cuisse.

I must say that it look much better than I thought was possible with plastic. And note that more than a few purist friends of mine have asked me which armourer built the German-splinted legs.

HMMMMMM. I think I need to take a look at those the next time I see you at practice...

------------------
If the man is true, the sword shall not break. Soul and steel are one.

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by dukelogan:
hand protection is not required to be covered at this time.

one word of caution about these baldar hilts. if you block with your basket make sure that you are turning the hilt so that the block hits the face of the basket and not the sides. i have folded a fairly high number of these over with shots and they hit the back of the hand prety sharply. so please be aware of your hand position when blocking and try to hit the center of the hilt. they really need some real enforcement around the edge of the hitl.

regards
logan

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

--they have been banned in Calontir for the reasons Logan mentions above.

Halvgrimr

Dark Victory Armory · Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:15 pm

Wow, I looked it up. He's absolutely right!
"Section 4,B-2. A metal basket hilt with enough bars or plates to prevent a blow from striking the fingers or the back of the hand, combined with a heavy leather or metal plate half-gauntlet lined with padding or foam that protects the back of the hand and wrist."

I had NO idea that they were having problems with them. Could someone describe the failure as I think that they are made of HDPE. (btw I sell steel baskets because of the close tolerances needed for hands.)

Dieterick

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Halvgrim:

--they have been banned in Calontir for the reasons Logan mentions above.

Halvgrimr

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 3:01 pm

DVA- Logan did describe the problem with them. Read the thread. (They squish)

------------------
Matthew Broadway (mattbroadway1974@yahoo.com)
Founder of The Armour Archive
Jack of All Trades... Master of none.

Crystoll · Post by **Crystoll** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 3:35 pm

Hmm.. I've seen and held those Baldar hilts.
IIRC, they were of a form injected version, and thinner than normal HDPE armor.
That makes em resistant to damage(cracking,ect), but in the same vein, they will fold/squish/ect..

Crystoll

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 5:14 pm

as i understand, the Baldar hilts are made of the same stuff car bumpers are. they have a high yield strength, and a high modulus of elasticity. so they can take the abuse, deform into the hand, and then spring back. (this is a good example of where that comes into play)

Anyhow, I dont think it is hdpe.

Having said that, i heard someone say:

one word of caution about these baldar hilts. if you block with your basket make sure that you are turning the hilt so that the block hits the face of the basket and not the sides. i have folded a fairly high number of these over with shots and they hit the back of the hand prety sharply. so please be aware of your hand position when blocking and try to hit the center of the hilt.

It is ILLEGAL to block with the hands, period.
So I would reccomend NOT orienting the basket as above, rather, block with a legal surface, like the blade, or your shiled. In that vein, banning them because they perform poorly in a role to which they should never be subjected.

-+G

-+G

Dagonet · Post by **Dagonet** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:07 pm

The rules of the list state that "The striking edge of a weapon in motion may not be grasped or blocked by the hands or limbs as a means of impeding a blow. Inadvertantly bringing the hands in contact with the striking surface of such a weapon when attempting to block a blow with another weapon shall not be considered to be in violation of this convention."

The weapon standards for swords states "Swords shall have a hand guard such as a basket hilt, quillons, or equivalent."
(any typos in the two quotes are mine)

As I understand it, the weapon standard makes the basket hilt part of the body of the sword, and therefore a legal object to block with. I believe the rule about blocking with your hand applies to blocking with an empty hand.

Regardless, if a piece of equipment is found faulty and potentially dangerous, that fact cannot be over looked, despite the situation. In attempting to block with a sword blade, it is still possible to have blows come in contact with the basket hilt inadvertantly. Your thought that "they perform poorly in a role to which they should never be subjected" is the same as saying we dont need knee protection, because we should never get hit in the knee. That is silly, regardless of the legality. The sides of basket hilts are struck frequently, and structural problems in specific designs of basket hilts should be noted for the safety of all that use them.

Dagonet

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rev. George:
as i understand, the Baldar hilts are made of the same stuff car bumpers are. they have a high yield strength, and a high modulus of elasticity. so they can take the abuse, deform into the hand, and then spring back. (this is a good example of where that comes into play)

Anyhow, I dont think it is hdpe.

Having said that, i heard someone say:

one word of caution about these baldar hilts. if you block with your basket make sure that you are turning the hilt so that the block hits the face of the basket and not the sides. i have folded a fairly high number of these over with shots and they hit the back of the hand prety sharply. [b]so please be aware of your hand position when blocking and try to hit the center of the hilt.

It is ILLEGAL to block with the hands, period.
So I would reccomend NOT orienting the basket as above, rather, block with a legal surface, like the blade, or your shiled. In that vein, banning them because they perform poorly in a role to which they should never be subjected.

-+G

-+G[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dark Victory Armory · Post by **Dark Victory Armory** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:52 pm

Ok, I've read it again and understand the princiiple. But perhaps I'm thinking of a different variety than what's being called Balders. The one that I saw first hand had DEFINATELY been injectiong molded HDPE and a pretty thick walled variety at that. The one example I had in hand had two L brackets screwed or rivited on to attach the sword via hose clameps. At last years Estrella some Canadians showed them off with great pride. Is this what a Balder basket is?

Regards,
Deet
DVA

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Broadway:
DVA- Logan did describe the problem with them. Read the thread. (They squish)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 7:28 pm

no Dietrich, those are not the CURRENT batch of baldar hilts. there was an earlier version that was, as i understand more rigid, but it might have had some cracking issues (maybe only at low temps?), so it coulda been the baldar hilts Mark I. The new ones were designed to alleviate that problem, and look very "rubbery" If i had to guess a material, i would say a RTV synthetic rubber, but that's just a guess.

-+G

Dark Victory Armory · Post by **Dark Victory Armory** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 6:58 pm

It's really amazing that if someone went to the trouble of getting an injection mold made (it's not cheap) that they would screw around and not make it thick enough. Damn silly.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rev. George:
no Dietrich, those are not the CURRENT batch of baldar hilts. there was an earlier version that was, as i understand more rigid, but it might have had some cracking issues (maybe only at low temps?), so it coulda been the baldar hilts Mark I. The new ones were designed to alleviate that problem, and look very "rubbery" If i had to guess a material, i would say a RTV synthetic rubber, but that's just a guess.

-+G<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jagatei · Post by **jagatei** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 7:07 pm

I have never had this problem with any of my baldar baskets. I tried out quite a few of the different matrials through his trial and this one seemed like the best to me.

I know some of the prototypes had that problem and the originals for the curent material were pretty stable on the sides. It could be a quality control problem with the materials (something that has happened before with some of his products)

Vogeljager · Post by **Vogeljager** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 3:06 pm

I dont think the thick HDPE ones the Canadians were displaying are the Balder types. From pictures, the balders look like hard rubber. These are hard black plastic.

A friend just moved home from Edmonton with a few. He wasn't sure where they had come from but he was sure they were a manufactured item possibly intended for use on a farm. They just happened to be perfect for baskets with a little modification (trim excess and drill hole for rattan)

Contact the Lost Vikings (http://www.lostviking.com/frame_index.html) They may be able to put you on to the source.

Personally, I don't like them. Very protective but Far too light. Puts the balance near the midpoint of the sword.