My take on the plastic isse (nauseatingly long... sorry)

Dark Victory Armory · Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:39 pm

I support Woegâ€™s statement. I believe that the SCA draws it's strength and popularity from a broad acceptance of different standards of historical accuracy as well as it's broad acceptance of diverse pre 17th century historical cultures. I am riveted by the diverse cultures represented at Pennsic, particularly the Japanese and really value the opportunity to see what other have learned and are willing to share about their research. I would be sad to see a "you ain't us" perspective descent over the SCA as I think it would rob us of a really amazing and creative element.

The challenge is where to draw the line. Personally, I'm uncomfortable with South American cultures being included. But the bitch is.... I don't know why.

Sincerely,
Ld. Dieterick von Berne
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

Amanita · Post by **Amanita** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 3:29 pm

One of the things that drew me to the SCA was the level of diversity to be found. I'm sorry, but if the SCA just came out and said "NO more asian personas allowed" I would walk away and not look back. Part of the fun of the SCA is the fact that a person has such freedom to choose the time period and place that interests them. And Broadway, if you refuse to fight somebody just because you "disapprove" of the ethnicity of their kit or persona, oh well :

. Would you rather fight a really well done Samurai with a great persona and kit, or some katana weilding genericelt-gypsy-fiercly independant refugee viking whose armour looks like a leather pickle barrel?
I don't know about you guys, but I got involved with the SCA to have fun, first of all.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 3:40 pm

"Would you rather fight a really well done Samurai with a great persona and kit, or some katana weilding genericelt-gypsy-fiercly independant refugee viking whose armour looks like a leather pickle barrel?"

I'd probably not notice if somebody tried to make a katana out of rattan. It'd probably look like a crooked hand and a half.

As I stated earlier... I'd rather fight a guy in a Pig Suit than a guy dressed as a samuri.

"...dedicated to researching and re-creating pre-17th-century European history"

Is that so hard to grasp?

------------------
Matthew Broadway (mattbroadway1974@yahoo.com)
Founder of The Armour Archive
Jack of All Trades... Master of none.

cheval · Post by **cheval** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:13 pm

Aminata: â€œâ€¦if the SCA just came out and said â€˜NO more asian personas allowedâ€™ I would walk away and not look back.â€

CS-Erasmus · Post by **CS-Erasmus** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 9:59 pm

One of the things that keeps coming up is the lack of authentic period footwear. First of all, I agree that the white sneakers need to go, but I typically think that white sneakers shouldn't exist in the first place. I personally wear a pair of steel toed combat boots when fighting. But then again I wear those same boots, well, whenever I leave the house. They're not period obviously, but they're not as blatantly oop as the white sneaks (twitch). I used to have a decent pair of medievil-ish boots (long before being in sca) but you couldn't pay me enough to wear those things onto the field. Yes boys and girls, there is a point to all this.
What kind of period footwear is there that could safely be worn on the field. I have seen sabatons, but I personally would look quite silly in those seeing as those would be about the only exposed metal I'm wearing except the helm knees and elbows. Is there some kind of leather armour that was designed for the feet? Would it be possible to make leather coverings that basically go over regular shoes and provide some protection when some 350 pound fbg steps on your foot during a battle? Any help on this would be appreciated.

Amanita · Post by **Amanita** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:36 pm

What I was told going in was that the SCA dealt with europe and cultures that europe had contact with.

Once again, the sheer diversity and scope of the SCA in both time period and geography is why I like it so much better than the re-enactment groups out there.
Sorry if that offends you.

As for period footwear, I'm with you guys on the tennis shoes and such. I've been contemplating how to make my own footwear better, both in regular activities, and should I take the field. For field use, I am thinking either make a pair of very well fitted covers for mundane boots or shoes, so that the traction and protection they provide is still there, but you don't see them.
Get rid of the tennis shoes and jeans..that in itself would contribute greatly to appearance on the feild.

Total_Wimp · Post by **Total_Wimp** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:40 pm

I'm very interested in what people have to say about this. Any chance of making this a new topic?

Flonzy's sig says something like "bad garb is as bad as plastic armour." If you substitute "footwear" for "garb" I think that would also have a nice ring to it.

Paul

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by CS-Erasmus:
One of the things that keeps coming up is the lack of authentic period footwear. First of all, I agree that the white sneakers need to go, but I typically think that white sneakers shouldn't exist in the first place. I personally wear a pair of steel toed combat boots when fighting. But then again I wear those same boots, well, whenever I leave the house. They're not period obviously, but they're not as blatantly oop as the white sneaks (twitch). I used to have a decent pair of medievil-ish boots (long before being in sca) but you couldn't pay me enough to wear those things onto the field. Yes boys and girls, there is a point to all this.
What kind of period footwear is there that could safely be worn on the field. I have seen sabatons, but I personally would look quite silly in those seeing as those would be about the only exposed metal I'm wearing except the helm knees and elbows. Is there some kind of leather armour that was designed for the feet? Would it be possible to make leather coverings that basically go over regular shoes and provide some protection when some 350 pound fbg steps on your foot during a battle? Any help on this would be appreciated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

cheval · Post by **cheval** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 10:42 am

Aminata: â€œWhat I was told going in was that the SCA dealt with europe and cultures that europe had contact with.â€

Total_Wimp · Post by **Total_Wimp** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by cheval:

Aminata: â€œOnce again, the sheer diversity and scope of the SCA in both time period and geography is why I like it so much better than the re-enactment groups out there.
Sorry if that offends you.â€

Amanita · Post by **Amanita** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:43 pm

I wasn't "apologising" for anything, really. Maybe I should have added an "Oh well:

" to that.

I find myself siding with Total Wimp on this one. We are not a living history group, with a strictly enforced and defined timeline and location. I think the best thing we can do from here is encourage everyone to strive for their best in whatever persona they have chosen, rather than beating on people for choosing a persona we don't like and trying to do a good portrayal, while at the same time making allowances for practicality, as in the issue that started this thread- plastic armour.

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:49 pm

"Is it possible that your lack of tolerance for Asian personae is interfering with your ability to understand that for this one singular solitary sole and lone example, plastic -- as a simulation of lacquered leather -- is the only viable route?

Effingham"

I don't think so, but I will take some time to think about it. I don't think I have a lack of tolerance for Asian personae. I do have a lack of tolerance for Asian personae that act outside of what I believe the SCA framework to be. Cheval summed it up pretty well, but Asian personae would be visitors to Western Europe and the rules, customs and practices of the hose country would to a degree be incumbent upon those visitors. Also, the armour worn and most of the key weapons used (katanas in particular) by Samurai would never be used in a European tournament, so it is quite inappropriate, though if you subscribe to the theory that we do fight 'wars' you could justify it for use in 'wars'.

As far as a lack of tolerance, some of my favorite people in the world include Sir Tanaka of the East Kingdom who until recently was our KEM. Now while I hassle him unmercifully for wearing plastic Japanese harness and using katana's and such in the tournament lists, I have no problem with his persona, since he could be a visitor to a European country and he acts like a complete gentleman and does not violate the guidelines and customs one would expect such a visitor to abide by.

He is a better knight and servant of the crown than I am ever likely to be.

So this isn't a matter as far as I can tell of any anti-Asian bias, though I will give it more thought. If you had brought up Ix and his Jaguar suit, Bedlam and the Tuchux typical attire or the 17th & 18th century armours we run into, my lack of tolerance for Aztec/Mayan/Tuchux/American Indian/Innuit/Eskimo/Cavalier/Out of SCA period persona's would absolutely be a factor.

Richard

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:21 pm

Man, there is some really hilarious stuff on this thread- some of the best I have read in a long time. My sides are killing me.
It's a strange predicament- I love Ix, but I am sometimes tempted to refuse combat with Road Warrior types, just because they look so stupid- to MY EYES.
It's a horrible situation that can never be solved or ironed out- just like basket hilt blocking, knee-fighting, and other goofy aspects of SCA combat. All you can do sometimes is laugh, and this thread is providing some top-drawer yuks.
-Vitus the Tall

cheval · Post by **cheval** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:39 pm

VtT: "Man, there is some really hilarious stuff on this thread- some of the best I have read in a long time. My sides are killing me."

It's a common affliction of the short and ungifted to find humor in the sincere endeavors of honest men...

VtT: "I love Ix..."

So, put your affection to good purpose and take up a collect to put the man in some decent armor.

VtT: "...but I am sometimes tempted to refuse combat with Road Warrior types..."

Go ahead -- yield to your temptations.

VtT: ",,,just because they look so stupid- to MY EYES."

In the land of the blind, even short people can be kings...

VtT: "It's a horrible situation that can never be solved or ironed out- just like basket hilt blocking, knee-fighting, and other goofy aspects of SCA combat."

But we can lead by example, and where our guidance is unappreciated, smack them unmercifully with the flat of our batons.

VtT: "All you can do sometimes is laugh, and this thread is providing some top-drawer yuks."

You've got to get out more -- and stop wearing those lifts in your shoes... -c-

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:31 am

If you had brought up Ix and his Jaguar suit, Bedlam and the Tuchux typical attire or the 17th & 18th century armours we run into, my lack of tolerance for Aztec/Mayan/Tuchux/American Indian/Innuit/Eskimo/Cavalier/Out of SCA period persona's would absolutely be a factor.

I agree. The thing that works for me vis-Ã -vis Japanese is that it, like medieval Europe, functions as a feudal culture with a militocracy. I just can't wrap my brain around Aztec, Amerind, or other "exotic" personae. Maybe that's a lack of edumacation or experience on my part, I dunno.

I've only seen Ix from a distance, for example, and everything I've heard sez he's a spiff guy... but he fights in PAJAMAS, man... If it's a jaguar suit, dammit, it should look like fur, not fur print fabric, for example. That's what offends my eyes. (Here's a thought: faux fur vs. real fur as an analogue to plastic vs. lacquered leather

.)

Effingham

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:51 am

Mommy, make the bad man stop....

Vogeljager · Post by **Vogeljager** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 10:48 am

I'm not against Plastic. Like many here I'm against crappy looking armour.

So much of what we do in the SCA is inauthentic. Much of what we do in the SCA CAN'T be authentic, especially in the lists.

Other than a few transitional or late period European suits, period armour cannot pass an SCA inspection.

Make the suits safe, then period-looking.
Personally, I don't care if you can twist candy wrappers into gothic plate, as long as it looks the part, and I see no difference, between Plastic as Laquered-leather and Resined-leather as laquered-leather as someone here suggested. What does the end-result look like? Can you tell it's inauthentic without cutting a piece to look inside?

All that aside, I think the law has merit. Ban exposed plastic. That will get rid of (some) obvious junk and those who challenge the ruling will have done their homework, and most likely show up with a better looking suit than many Steel and leather jalopies.

What we are really working toward is a better looking list-field isn't it?

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 1:37 pm

Yes, I know that historically Japanese did not fight in European tournaments while they were visiting (though they did visit).

They did?? When was this? VERY interested in your source for this.

Total_Wimp · Post by **Total_Wimp** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 2:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Russ Mitchell:
They did?? When was this? VERY interested in your source for this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.artelino.com/articles/japanese_history.asp

Just one source. Do a google search for "Momoyama Japanese Europe" and you'll find more. It was way more common for Europeans to visit Japan than visa-versa, but it happened.

Check this one out too:

http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/index.htm

Look way down the page at the "Christian Samurai." Itâ€™s a real mindbender.

Paul

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 3:08 pm

Lets not forget in the mid 16th century the Portugese were trading quite often with the Japanese. Heck the Japanese were sometime so smitten with the Peascod style breast plates and comb helms they were converted into a Japanese/European mis-mash of armour, some in fact worn by very famous Japanese samurai and politicians...

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 4:01 pm

That's kind of odd... but I'd been thinking considerably earlier than that... keep forgetting that the mid-sixteenth century is still period for some of you guys...

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:01 am

The Portugese landing in Japan happened about 1547, but by 1550, the Portugese matchlock (Tanegashima or teppo) was well integrated into the japanese war culture. Oda Nobunaga, while not the first to use teppo in combat, put them to damn good effect against Takeda in 1575. While not this major battle where the teppo took the day, it was one of the first known instances of massed volley fire that while not killing a lot of men, threw the entire calvary line of Takeda into chaos, not to mention covered the battlefield in dense smoke. With the chaos and smoke, Oda and Tukogawa proceeded to smash thru Takeda's lines killing damn near 10,000 of Takeda's troops as well as quite a few of his high ranked generals.

Around 1595 the spanish start showing up, followed 4 or 5 years later by the dutch. The english then show up and by some odd coincidence that coincides with the banning of Christianity in 1613. By 1639, all foriegn nationals are expelled from Japan.

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:31 am

Sir Richard- as you recall, I was around in MSR back in the day as well, on the other side from your arguement. I found it ridiculous that some of those hideous, a-historical suits were allowed out on the field, were considered intrisicly "better" simply because they were leather, while my CoP, looking 1000% better and you couldn't tell it had plastic plates unless you took it off of me, was banned. Even witht he plastic plates, my kit weighed more, looked better, and was far more authentic, yet the "plastic" issue out-weighed all other considerations. It seems to me it would be better to start out with a better appearance, and move to more authentic materials as you can. I switched out the plastic plates for metal, and guess what? You couldn't see the difference.

I am opposed to crappy looking kits, not plastic.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:06 am

Hi Owen.

Your point is well taken. But...

You made a coat of plates and covered the plastic up completely. That is not what we are talking here, which is exposed plastic.

In a perfect world, we would not use plastic even for a coat of plates. But I can live with that in the SCA as it is covered up.

Richard

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:25 am

That would be my preference as well. Although I have to say the "Rainbow Warrior" (remember him? lost a bet?) was truly a sight to behold, and one I would have been very sorry to miss.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

[This message has been edited by Owen (edited 03-05-2003).]

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:51 am

If the plastic plates on the Asian suit where laquered/painted, are they not covered? Covered simply suggest that I cannot see it. If I cannot tell if it is laquered one material or another then surely it has passed the covered mandate.
But, like we strive to make better our historical presence in all things. Intime should not the person in the plastic asian armor be encouraged to use more period materials, regardless of weather or not they can be seen, just as in a cop? It is not like the only way to make these is out of plastic is it? I have picked some of the suits up, and I do not feel that the person is doing it for sports reasons, as they weigh as much as the historical ones do, and more that many stainless steel breast plates.

Sir David

Total_Wimp · Post by **Total_Wimp** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 1:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by David deKunstenaar:
If the plastic plates on the Asian suit where laquered/painted, are they not covered? Covered simply suggest that I cannot see it. If I cannot tell if it is laquered one material or another then surely it has passed the covered mandate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of people don't have a problem with the idea of painting the plastic plates. They point out that they will not violate the law if the plates are painted.

I personally have a problem with going to the extra trouble of painting a plastic plate with a plastic-based paint and calling it an improvement. If they're both black and they're both plastic, what have you improved?

At that point it gets down to a "follow the letter" or "follow the spirit" type of argument. I dislike following the letter when it does nothing to help the spirit so I'd prefer to not use this method. Going with plain plastic and getting a waiver or going with leather or metal that have a coating seem like better options from my perspective.

Paul

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 7:22 pm

Hi David.

I agree that if you paint plastic, it would be less offensive than fully exposed plastic. My problem with using paint as a covering for non-period materials, is that I doubt most people would maintain the paint, so it would end up being exposed quickly anyway.

Though I will admit that painted plastic Samurai armour as a modern version of lacquered leather Samurai armour, is the closest anyone has come to giving me a convincing argument to allow plastic that is not covered by fabric, leather or metal. I am not convinced, but I am giving it a lot of thought.

Richard

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 7:03 am

Richard, I am not a supporter of useing plastic as a replacement of historical materials either. Still I don't think it is fair to say that everyone who has it is too lazy to maintain it. It must be covered and if you choose to paint it to make it look right, then you agree to maintain it. Cloth rips, and historical armor held together with duct tape is just as bad.

David