Question from the SEM

[Balin50]

Marshals should keep us the fighters safe and them the spectators safe and thats it. Appearance is not in their job description nor should it be. I honestly think that those of you on the right hand side of the country see a lot more madmaxians and their ilk then we do out here. As such many of us are saying we do not need an SCA wide rule. You on the right hand side need to be the "bad" guy and clean up your own yards and not worry about other peoples.

Balin

[DukeAvery]

I've come to realize that we as people easily become very attached to our gear and methods. Because of these attachments, we have difficulty viewing any potential changes concerning our gear and methods objectively. I know this, because I was once very attached to spear fighting, and I remain very attached to small shield fighting.

The SEM asked a question and I think everybody has an opinion they want and may continue to want to share. There are, after all, many of us and only one SEM. It is natural that this would be a very long thread and may continue to grow. Yet, it is not a good thread to argue those opinions within for that very reason.

Regards

Avery

[AEiric Orvender]

I mean how many folks just barely meet the requirements for appearance or is everyone except new guys well above the minimum.

I ask because if/when these rules get put in place i suspect many will only do the bare minimum that they have to and thats it.

Balin

Well, the bare minimum is better than no minimum...
I know of a couple of fighters who wear exposed blue barrel plastic 'newb' armor "because is pisses people off" (their quote) and they don't have to change it.

[Saritor]

So, what we really need is a "Dude, don't be a dick." rule?

[Maeryk]

I've come to realize that we as people easily become very attached to our gear and methods. Because of these attachments, we have difficulty viewing any potential changes concerning our gear and methods objectively. I know this, because I was once very attached to spear fighting, and I remain very attached to small shield fighting.

The SEM asked a question and I think everybody has an opinion they want and may continue to want to share. There are, after all, many of us and only one SEM. It is natural that this would be a very long thread and may continue to grow. Yet, it is not a good thread to argue those opinions within for that very reason.

Regards

Avery

I'd like to point out that I would not have to make any changes to my gear to fight under the proposed rule. I spent a _lot_ on my armor that I don't use. *sigh*

[Vitus von Atzinger]

>I know of a couple of fighters who wear exposed blue barrel plastic 'newb' armor "because is pisses people off" (their quote) and they don't have to change it.



Oh yeah, like who? Do they even fight anymore?

[MJBlazek]

Those kudos and awards are there to encourage and promote authenticity. If it is mandate there is no reason to praise those who do it well.

I have only been doing this for 5 years, but I have never met somone who has been awarded for looking good.
Being authentic, yes, they are called Laurels. Most fighters I know have no interest in being a Laurel.

If you mandate it, no there is no reason to praise those who are doing the minimum. There is reason to praise those who go above the minimum, and are exceptional.

[Balin50]

I mean how many folks just barely meet the requirements for appearance or is everyone except new guys well above the minimum.

I ask because if/when these rules get put in place i suspect many will only do the bare minimum that they have to and thats it.

Balin

Well, the bare minimum is better than no minimum...
I know of a couple of fighters who wear exposed blue barrel plastic 'newb' armor "because is pisses people off" (their quote) and they don't have to change it.

I would have to laugh at the people that were getting pissed off at what someone wore. Maybe if they quit being pissy the blue plastic guys would change.

Balin

[Maeryk]

I mean how many folks just barely meet the requirements for appearance or is everyone except new guys well above the minimum.

I ask because if/when these rules get put in place i suspect many will only do the bare minimum that they have to and thats it.

Balin

Well, the bare minimum is better than no minimum...
I know of a couple of fighters who wear exposed blue barrel plastic 'newb' armor "because is pisses people off" (their quote) and they don't have to change it.

I would have to laugh at the people that were getting pissed off at what someone wore. Maybe if they quit being pissy the blue plastic guys would change.

Balin

There is a point to that.. nobody keeps fishing if nothing ever rises to the bait...

[Count Johnathan]

ok, i propose we get back to what the sem is asking of us. in the original post he stated:

OK, a while back I offered to legislate away visible blue plastic.
I was met with a few "hurrahs" and a few "nooooo!'s"from the KEM's.

The Pro's: Authenticity baby step. Better atmosphere.
The Cons: Recruitment barrier to new people.

Offer your opinions, succinctly, intelligently, etc..

i think we realize that the "con" listed is, if anything, the opposite and that better appearance actually encourages more folks to check out the sca. i also think the "pro" part is agreed upon by everyone, regardless of their position on legislation. in other words ive not seen anyone post that blue jeans, tennis shoes, and blatantly modern materials actually enhances the medieval atmosphere of sca events.

my opinion is that the sem consider using the exact wording of the atlantian policy. i think the verbiage is clear and easy to understand. it has a proven track record of over 8 years with very little failure (none of which was difficult to correct). it gives plenty of options for compliance, none of which are difficult or expensive or time consuming. it allows for all kinds of leeway such as visible plastic that actually enhances the appearance of the person on the field or such modern things as are medically required.

sir omarad, i support your desires in this and encourage you to consider not re-inventing the rules but simply using a proven system that has been very successful for nearly a decade.

regards
logan

So you encourage Omarad to use rules that you wrote? Wow there's a stretch. Go figure you would support an idea like that.

[MJBlazek]

I mean how many folks just barely meet the requirements for appearance or is everyone except new guys well above the minimum.

I ask because if/when these rules get put in place i suspect many will only do the bare minimum that they have to and thats it.

Balin

Well, the bare minimum is better than no minimum...
I know of a couple of fighters who wear exposed blue barrel plastic 'newb' armor "because is pisses people off" (their quote) and they don't have to change it.

I would have to laugh at the people that were getting pissed off at what someone wore. Maybe if they quit being pissy the blue plastic guys would change.

Balin

There is a point to that.. nobody keeps fishing if nothing ever rises to the bait...

No, they go to a different spot.
If their goal is to be a dick, then they will figure out another way to be a dick.

[AEiric Orvender]

>I know of a couple of fighters who wear exposed blue barrel plastic 'newb' armor "because is pisses people off" (their quote) and they don't have to change it.



Oh yeah, like who? Do they even fight anymore?

Yup every year at Pennsic (well the past 5 years at least) they hail from Wisconson... don't know their SCA names they're into the whole SCA=Party w/ fighting thing.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Maeryk -

I've been in the SCA since 1985.

And the number of people I've run into or witnessed who have deliberately tried to hurt new fighters, ruin peoples' fun, etc. etc. etc is some small I can't even recall the last one.

And frankly, I don't see why asking people to dress appropriately in any way keeps anyone from having fun. Haven't seen or heard of anyone saying "OK, they want me to dress Medeivally? In the SCA? I'm outta here."

The Generic Mercs wear surcoats, hide the plastic - yeah, they meet the rule, as stale as the joke is. The guy running around in the tie-dye painted plastic armor? Not so much.

So how does this mess with anyones' "The" in "The Dream?"

.

[Balin50]

I mean how many folks just barely meet the requirements for appearance or is everyone except new guys well above the minimum.

I ask because if/when these rules get put in place i suspect many will only do the bare minimum that they have to and thats it.

Balin

Well, the bare minimum is better than no minimum...
I know of a couple of fighters who wear exposed blue barrel plastic 'newb' armor "because is pisses people off" (their quote) and they don't have to change it.

I would have to laugh at the people that were getting pissed off at what someone wore. Maybe if they quit being pissy the blue plastic guys would change.

Balin

There is a point to that.. nobody keeps fishing if nothing ever rises to the bait...

No, they go to a different spot.
If their goal is to be a dick, then they will figure out another way to be a dick.

Wow lots a faith in your fellow man huh. Maybe you should be upset at the folks that are acting like dicks to those in Blue plastic.

Balin

[MJBlazek]

I mean how many folks just barely meet the requirements for appearance or is everyone except new guys well above the minimum.

I ask because if/when these rules get put in place i suspect many will only do the bare minimum that they have to and thats it.

Balin

Well, the bare minimum is better than no minimum...
I know of a couple of fighters who wear exposed blue barrel plastic 'newb' armor "because is pisses people off" (their quote) and they don't have to change it.

I would have to laugh at the people that were getting pissed off at what someone wore. Maybe if they quit being pissy the blue plastic guys would change.

Balin

There is a point to that.. nobody keeps fishing if nothing ever rises to the bait...

No, they go to a different spot.
If their goal is to be a dick, then they will figure out another way to be a dick.

Wow lots a faith in your fellow man huh. Maybe you should be upset at the folks that are acting like dicks to those in Blue plastic.

Balin

or to Combat Archers


Seriously Balin, I have more faith in my fellow man than most people, and that faith is tested every day.

If a person's goal is to "piss in anothers cheerios" (as the saying goes) they will find a way to do it, whether it is thier cheerios, coffee, or on thier toast.

[chris19d]

telling them to fix their gear so it meets the"attempt" from society rules is not being a dick, provided you aren't rude about how you do it.

[Balin50]

Maeryk -

I've been in the SCA since 1985.

And the number of people I've run into or witnessed who have deliberately tried to hurt new fighters, ruin peoples' fun, etc. etc. etc is some small I can't even recall the last one.

And frankly, I don't see why asking people to dress appropriately in any way keeps anyone from having fun. Haven't seen or heard of anyone saying "OK, they want me to dress Medeivally? In the SCA? I'm outta here."

The Generic Mercs wear surcoats, hide the plastic - yeah, they meet the rule, as stale as the joke is. The guy running around in the tie-dye painted plastic armor? Not so much.

So how does this mess with anyones' "The" in "The Dream?"

.

Because not every Kingdom has those guys, or at least in the amount that they are a problem. Really like many have said let the Kingdom decide on IF they need an appearance rule and then come up with their own if they choose to have one.

Balin

[Balin50]

I mean how many folks just barely meet the requirements for appearance or is everyone except new guys well above the minimum.

I ask because if/when these rules get put in place i suspect many will only do the bare minimum that they have to and thats it.

Balin

Well, the bare minimum is better than no minimum...
I know of a couple of fighters who wear exposed blue barrel plastic 'newb' armor "because is pisses people off" (their quote) and they don't have to change it.

I would have to laugh at the people that were getting pissed off at what someone wore. Maybe if they quit being pissy the blue plastic guys would change.

Balin

There is a point to that.. nobody keeps fishing if nothing ever rises to the bait...

No, they go to a different spot.
If their goal is to be a dick, then they will figure out another way to be a dick.

Wow lots a faith in your fellow man huh. Maybe you should be upset at the folks that are acting like dicks to those in Blue plastic.

Balin

or to Combat Archers


Seriously Balin, I have more faith in my fellow man than most people, and that faith is tested every day.

If a person's goal is to "piss in anothers cheerios" (as the saying goes) they will find a way to do it, whether it is thier cheerios, coffee, or on thier toast.

CA LOL heck this rule will do more to get rid of them then anything else. Most of the plastic warriors out here are CAers and i still think this rule is needed less then them and they are not needed at all.

Balin

[Maeryk]

Maeryk -

I've been in the SCA since 1985.

And the number of people I've run into or witnessed who have deliberately tried to hurt new fighters, ruin peoples' fun, etc. etc. etc is some small I can't even recall the last one.

And frankly, I don't see why asking people to dress appropriately in any way keeps anyone from having fun. Haven't seen or heard of anyone saying "OK, they want me to dress Medeivally? In the SCA? I'm outta here."

The Generic Mercs wear surcoats, hide the plastic - yeah, they meet the rule, as stale as the joke is. The guy running around in the tie-dye painted plastic armor? Not so much.

So how does this mess with anyones' "The" in "The Dream?"

.

Unless worded EXCEPTIONALLY well (something our docs aren't known for.. and even when worded well, people "interpet" them funny.. follow any of the threads on "new marshallate ruling" etc), I see far more room for abuse in a rule like this than I do it solving a problem that's really, a personal issue for people who let seeing a pair of sneakers somehow ruin their day.

That's my main fear, and I've mentioned it several times.

_I_ might apply it fairly and in the spirit it is intended.. that doesn't mean everyone is going to. And please don't tell me the story of the marshal who is clearly deluded and bouncing people for stuff that is legal is apocryphal.. a quick search here will show you PLENTY of folks who have run afoul of "him".

I don't think a rule is necessary. I think encouragement? Yes. By all means. If the SEM want's to issue a statement encouraging folks to step up and cover? Great. That's how things should happen. But once you start threatening to suspend fighting unless like minds follow your lead and toe your line? Suddenly I don't see "encourage" I see "threaten" and perhaps "Bully" as well.

Also, it needs to start from the top down. Guys who have been doing this for 20 years and who have alphabet soup should LOOK Like they have been doing this for 20 years and have alphabet soup. They shouldn't like like a sport fighter doing the bare minimum to keep on the top ranks. That's where your encouragement comes from.

Do they meet the letter? Possibly. The spirit? Not even a bit. "with great power comes great responsibility". I pick something in my kit to improve every year. one "more modern" thing goes away, replaced by something "more medieval". I'd urge everyone to do the same.

But the best I can do is urge.

I realize the SEM only addresses the battlefield.. (and I'm not sure I agree with his interpetation of his role or scope in this matter), however, this doesn't, in my mind "fix" anything. It might make the fight, itself, look a bit nicer. (but probably not much, as, honestly, there's not that much exposed plastic OUT there anymore), but you are still going to be seeing those same guys, in their UA compression gear and hexagon thigh pads, on the way to, and from, the field, and hanging out in front of their tents before and after the fighting.

I dunno. I just think it's a bit of useless legislation that raises the bar for the "new guy", and may do so deleteriously. Encouragement works much better. Start handing out some token or something for people who "get it right" or "show great improvement" and you'll see more people care.

[Count Johnathan]

Several points I'd like to address from the last few pages of comment.

1. I am not looking to re-legislate the "reasonable attempt" rule for the entire SCA "top to bottom" as Meryk wants.
I am only looking for a way to do what has been needed for a long time but do it in a small way that will get the ball rolling at the Kingdom level and perhaps get those that follow me in my office to improve upon what I start.

2. I am focusing on Medieval "appearance" not perfect "authenticity". I do not want my Marshals to have to have a portable library of source material. I want something simple they can check.

3. I am addressing this at the Society level instead of the local level because the local level isn't getting it done after 40 years.
Local and Kingdom guys have so much going on and they change very frequently. A society standard, albeit a very simple and small requirement would be enforced at every Kingdom event and in every Kingdom. That also means that the Interkingdom events that are growing in popularity wouldn't "surprise" folks from lenient Kingdoms with additional requirements.

4. Thanks for all the debate and discussion, it is very helpful.

5. Don't bring up CA!!!! I haven't had a CA related issue ina few months. Shhhhh! it's quiet.

So wait! The SCA has been failing to meet an "appearance" standard since you were 3 years old!?! In 40 years we haven't been getting it done on a local level so now we need NEW legislation to force the local groups to meet a NEW standard of "appearance" of your creation? How did we ever survive much less grow to global proportions as we have?

You now wish to require Atenveldt for example to meet the standards of Atlantia?

Could you please explain how Atlantia or the East has been negatively impacted by Atenveldts more lenient appearance standards?

And about that CA stuff.....

[Balin50]

Wait in 40 years ALL of the SCA has failed??? Was a grand tour of all the kingdoms done to determine this? When did it come through Atenveldt do we fail to look as the SEM deems we should?

Much like the weapon changes there is no need. Sit down and file reports and leave the rules alone they have been working well for many years and the SCA growth is proof of that.

Balin

[Maeryk]

Several points I'd like to address from the last few pages of comment.

1. I am not looking to re-legislate the "reasonable attempt" rule for the entire SCA "top to bottom" as Meryk wants.
I am only looking for a way to do what has been needed for a long time but do it in a small way that will get the ball rolling at the Kingdom level and perhaps get those that follow me in my office to improve upon what I start.

2. I am focusing on Medieval "appearance" not perfect "authenticity". I do not want my Marshals to have to have a portable library of source material. I want something simple they can check.

3. I am addressing this at the Society level instead of the local level because the local level isn't getting it done after 40 years.
Local and Kingdom guys have so much going on and they change very frequently. A society standard, albeit a very simple and small requirement would be enforced at every Kingdom event and in every Kingdom. That also means that the Interkingdom events that are growing in popularity wouldn't "surprise" folks from lenient Kingdoms with additional requirements.

4. Thanks for all the debate and discussion, it is very helpful.

5. Don't bring up CA!!!! I haven't had a CA related issue ina few months. Shhhhh! it's quiet.

So wait! The SCA has been failing to meet an "appearance" standard since you were 3 years old!?! In 40 years we haven't been getting it done on a local level so now we need NEW legislation to force the local groups to meet a NEW standard of "appearance" of your creation? How did we ever survive much less grow to global proportions as we have?

You now wish to require Atenveldt for example to meet the standards of Atlantia?

Could you please explain how Atlantia or the East has been negatively impacted by Atenveldts more lenient appearance standards?

And about that CA stuff.....

hey, I think the East looks pretty damned good. I mean, it helps that we have one of hte SCA's premier armorers here, and local, as well as certain folks who lead by shining example, wanting their groups to look really spiff, and others who glom onto that look..

[Count Johnathan]

Those kudos and awards are there to encourage and promote authenticity. If it is mandate there is no reason to praise those who do it well.

I have only been doing this for 5 years, but I have never met somone who has been awarded for looking good.
Being authentic, yes, they are called Laurels. Most fighters I know have no interest in being a Laurel.

If you mandate it, no there is no reason to praise those who are doing the minimum. There is reason to praise those who go above the minimum, and are exceptional.

And yet the minimum is never viewed as being enough as we are seeing from this discussion.

"You know what, Stan, if you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, like your pretty boy over there, Brian, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?" - Joanna- Office space

I got it! Why don't we just make stickers that new fighters can wear showing that they get a pass for a short time?

"You know the Nazis had flair they made the Jews wear." Peter - Office space

[Maeryk]

I dunno. I kinda liked the bit about how a guy could show up at a "public" fight practice, but be told he couldn't try on the loaner armor and give it a shot cause he's wearing sneakers.

[Gorm]

I still have the tabard I made with a (probably poor) Latin translation of "Do not remove this tabard under penalty of Atlantian law" written on it.

I may have to drag it out again.

And yes, Logan, it passes your law, it's documentable.

[dukelogan]

the appearance standard isnt for the guy at his first event (although he should not have on blue jeans anyway, its the rule) but rather the guy who takes the field. he has been around long enough that he cant be labeled as a "new guy". and yes, im sure someone will throw a "i authorized at my first event after only one practice" card. i find those difficult to imagine if i give credit for proper training and comprehension of our, overly complicated, rules of the list and conventions of combat. but thats another issue.

and i would say, in answer of your other question, that while there are some folks in atlantia that barely make any effort (silver spray paint on plastic legs still looks bad to me) the largest majority look pretty impressive. the newer fighters often look better than the 10 year guys i see from other kingdoms. they take pride in their appearance and it shows in their efforts. it used to be very easy to figure out, for example, who is the authorizing fighter when two guys are getting ready to begin an authorization. for the last few years it has become next to impossible to tell based on a visual inspection. its the norm in atlantia now and i doubt anyone misses the days when a guy would walk out on the field in camo pants and motorcross shoulder pads.

regards
logan

i did just that johnathan. in fact we went a step further and provided guidelines to help those that thought wearing a camo t-shirt under their motorcross plastic body thingy was a proper display of the warrior elite of pre-17th century wherever. the rules already said that they must do so, yet somehow they couldnt figure that out on their own. and by "they" i mean the dozen fighters in the entire kingdom that were that clueless and the many dozens that thought their white keds enhanced the look of the society.

surely you dont think blue jeans conform to the requirements relating to appearance when attending an sca event do you?

regards
logan

Again that is my point. I am OK with the crowns making additional laws to improve the appearance of their kingdom as it suits them to do so. I am glad that you took the initiative to improve upon your kingdom when it was your turn to do it.

No additional society level legislation was required for you to do it.

I do think that if some noob walks up and says "wow this is awesome" and wants to stick around but is wearing blue jeans and tennis shoes, throwing a tabard on the guy so he can feel like a part of the event is conforming to the requirements of an attempt to blend in so to speak. That's what the rule is for. Make an attempt to blend in and not be a sore thumb sticking out. A few modern bits sticking out here and there is going to happen now and then but that is ok. It's not a contest exactly but if we were all forced to meet the highest standards for appearance there would be no reason for us to give kudos (and sometimes awards) for authenticity. Those kudos and awards are there to encourage and promote authenticity. If it is mandate there is no reason to praise those who do it well.

Like Chris Rock says, you don't get an awared for doing what is expected of you.

"Man I aint never been to jail"
"Man you aren't supposed to go to jail!"

"Man I take care of my kids"
"Man you are supposed to take care of your kids! What do you want, a medal?"

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Guess I just have more faith in people to follow the spirit of the rules than you guys. Must be the people I hang out with.

I don't look for the Star Chamber in every group, the secret invasion in every new person, the evil in every peer, the gulag needing filling behind every rule, and the destoyer of the SCA behind every bow.


But you know? I'm good with that.


.

[Balin50]

the appearance standard its for the guy at his first event (although he should not have on blue jeans anyway, its the rule) but rather the guy who takes the field. he has been around long enough that he cant be labeled as a "new guy". and yes, im sure someone will throw a "i authorized at my first event after only one practice" card. i find those difficult to imagine if i give credit for proper training and comprehension of our, overly complicated, rules of the list and conventions of combat. but thats another issue.

and i would say, in answer of your other question, that while there are some folks in atlantia that barely make any effort (silver spray paint on plastic legs still looks bad to me) the largest majority look pretty impressive. the newer fighters often look better than the 10 year guys i see from other kingdoms. they take pride in their appearance and it shows in their efforts. it used to be very easy to figure out, for example, who is the authorizing fighter when two guys are getting ready to begin an authorization. for the last few years it has become next to impossible to tell based on a visual inspection. its the norm in atlantia now and i doubt anyone misses the days when a guy would walk out on the field in camo pants and motorcross shoulder pads.

regards
logan

i did just that johnathan. in fact we went a step further and provided guidelines to help those that thought wearing a camo t-shirt under their motorcross plastic body thingy was a proper display of the warrior elite of pre-17th century wherever. the rules already said that they must do so, yet somehow they couldnt figure that out on their own. and by "they" i mean the dozen fighters in the entire kingdom that were that clueless and the many dozens that thought their white keds enhanced the look of the society.

surely you dont think blue jeans conform to the requirements relating to appearance when attending an sca event do you?

regards
logan

Again that is my point. I am OK with the crowns making additional laws to improve the appearance of their kingdom as it suits them to do so. I am glad that you took the initiative to improve upon your kingdom when it was your turn to do it.

No additional society level legislation was required for you to do it.

I do think that if some noob walks up and says "wow this is awesome" and wants to stick around but is wearing blue jeans and tennis shoes, throwing a tabard on the guy so he can feel like a part of the event is conforming to the requirements of an attempt to blend in so to speak. That's what the rule is for. Make an attempt to blend in and not be a sore thumb sticking out. A few modern bits sticking out here and there is going to happen now and then but that is ok. It's not a contest exactly but if we were all forced to meet the highest standards for appearance there would be no reason for us to give kudos (and sometimes awards) for authenticity. Those kudos and awards are there to encourage and promote authenticity. If it is mandate there is no reason to praise those who do it well.

Like Chris Rock says, you don't get an awared for doing what is expected of you.

"Man I aint never been to jail"
"Man you aren't supposed to go to jail!"

"Man I take care of my kids"
"Man you are supposed to take care of your kids! What do you want, a medal?"

Great it sounds like it works for Atlantia that had a problem with those guys, but not every kingdom does. We do not need a SCA wide rule.

Balin

[dukelogan]

balin,

if your kingdom is fine and meets the appearance requirements already and its just us right coast folk why on earth would you care? or are you championing people that you think need a champion? if so, perhaps you should let those kingdoms decide if they need to fight the notion of simply holding people to a standard that has been in place for decades yet simply gets ignored by a few people.

as i said, and apparently confused poor maeyrk, we are the only game in town? of course not, there are plenty of other groups that have more lax rules than us. whats wrong with actually expecting people to follow those rules? i mean the arguments against a rule like this all boil down pretty much to "no, following those rules sucks". i dont understand that.

regards
logan

the appearance standard its for the guy at his first event (although he should not have on blue jeans anyway, its the rule) but rather the guy who takes the field. he has been around long enough that he cant be labeled as a "new guy". and yes, im sure someone will throw a "i authorized at my first event after only one practice" card. i find those difficult to imagine if i give credit for proper training and comprehension of our, overly complicated, rules of the list and conventions of combat. but thats another issue.

and i would say, in answer of your other question, that while there are some folks in atlantia that barely make any effort (silver spray paint on plastic legs still looks bad to me) the largest majority look pretty impressive. the newer fighters often look better than the 10 year guys i see from other kingdoms. they take pride in their appearance and it shows in their efforts. it used to be very easy to figure out, for example, who is the authorizing fighter when two guys are getting ready to begin an authorization. for the last few years it has become next to impossible to tell based on a visual inspection. its the norm in atlantia now and i doubt anyone misses the days when a guy would walk out on the field in camo pants and motorcross shoulder pads.

regards
logan

i did just that johnathan. in fact we went a step further and provided guidelines to help those that thought wearing a camo t-shirt under their motorcross plastic body thingy was a proper display of the warrior elite of pre-17th century wherever. the rules already said that they must do so, yet somehow they couldnt figure that out on their own. and by "they" i mean the dozen fighters in the entire kingdom that were that clueless and the many dozens that thought their white keds enhanced the look of the society.

surely you dont think blue jeans conform to the requirements relating to appearance when attending an sca event do you?

regards
logan

Again that is my point. I am OK with the crowns making additional laws to improve the appearance of their kingdom as it suits them to do so. I am glad that you took the initiative to improve upon your kingdom when it was your turn to do it.

No additional society level legislation was required for you to do it.

I do think that if some noob walks up and says "wow this is awesome" and wants to stick around but is wearing blue jeans and tennis shoes, throwing a tabard on the guy so he can feel like a part of the event is conforming to the requirements of an attempt to blend in so to speak. That's what the rule is for. Make an attempt to blend in and not be a sore thumb sticking out. A few modern bits sticking out here and there is going to happen now and then but that is ok. It's not a contest exactly but if we were all forced to meet the highest standards for appearance there would be no reason for us to give kudos (and sometimes awards) for authenticity. Those kudos and awards are there to encourage and promote authenticity. If it is mandate there is no reason to praise those who do it well.

Like Chris Rock says, you don't get an awared for doing what is expected of you.

"Man I aint never been to jail"
"Man you aren't supposed to go to jail!"

"Man I take care of my kids"
"Man you are supposed to take care of your kids! What do you want, a medal?"

Great it sounds like it works for Atlantia that had a problem with those guys, but not every kingdom does. We do not need a SCA wide rule.

Balin

[MJBlazek]

really your grand rebuttal is quoting office space?

Perhaps the original minimum is not seen as enough becuase it really was never enough.

If you set the bar low enough in the mud, even snakes will be able to squirm over it.

Those kudos and awards are there to encourage and promote authenticity. If it is mandate there is no reason to praise those who do it well.

I have only been doing this for 5 years, but I have never met somone who has been awarded for looking good.
Being authentic, yes, they are called Laurels. Most fighters I know have no interest in being a Laurel.

If you mandate it, no there is no reason to praise those who are doing the minimum. There is reason to praise those who go above the minimum, and are exceptional.

And yet the minimum is never viewed as being enough as we are seeing from this discussion.

"You know what, Stan, if you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, like your pretty boy over there, Brian, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?" - Joanna- Office space

I got it! Why don't we just make stickers that new fighters can wear showing that they get a pass for a short time?

"You know the Nazis had flair they made the Jews wear." Peter - Office space

[Gorm]

i mean the arguments against a rule like this all boil down pretty much to "no, following those rules sucks". i dont understand that.

That's because you don't bother reading the arguments your opponents present.

The argument isn't "following those rules sucks", it's "Introducing a New Rule that attempts to define those terms and provide an exclusionary enforcement mechanism isn't necessary, nor does it address the actual problem you're trying to solve".

That is a significantly different argument, and one you still, to this date, have never addressed.

[Maeryk]

The point you are missing, Logan, is it's only YOU and a select few others who view this as a "rule" we have had for "years" which people are "violating".

To a great many people, this isn't simply "clearing up an existing rule", it's IMPLEMENTING A NEW ONE WHICH IS A HIGHER BAR THAN IT PREVIOUSLY WAS, and a higher bar than most, if not ALL of us, started out under.

In other words, just cause YOU interpret the documents a certain way, does not mean everyone does. And the BOD has been VERY careful NOT to refine those documents over the years to lean towards "more authenticity".

Which makes me think it's you and the relative few who are "wrong" rather than the mumble THOUSAND others plus the BOD, who are wrong, and merely missing the benefit of your enlightenment.

[white mountain armoury]

Those kudos and awards are there to encourage and promote authenticity. If it is mandate there is no reason to praise those who do it well.

I have only been doing this for 5 years, but I have never met somone who has been awarded for looking good.
Being authentic, yes, they are called Laurels. Most fighters I know have no interest in being a Laurel.

If you mandate it, no there is no reason to praise those who are doing the minimum. There is reason to praise those who go above the minimum, and are exceptional.

Fredrick was given the Kings order of Excellence, an award for appearance and authenticity.

[MJBlazek]

Well there, I know 1 person.

I didn't know thats why he was given the award.
He is a shning example though, He didn't get awarded for being above average, he was awarded for being excellent.

I think a great argument against enacting a rule such as this, is that it would actually be harder to get an award.


and you of course Master Magnus are an exception to the "most fighters not wanting to be laurels"
There are a few to be sure, but then, this mandate really would not effect them.

Those kudos and awards are there to encourage and promote authenticity. If it is mandate there is no reason to praise those who do it well.

I have only been doing this for 5 years, but I have never met somone who has been awarded for looking good.
Being authentic, yes, they are called Laurels. Most fighters I know have no interest in being a Laurel.

If you mandate it, no there is no reason to praise those who are doing the minimum. There is reason to praise those who go above the minimum, and are exceptional.

Fredrick was given the Kings order of Excellence, an award for appearance and authenticity.

[Riese Von Landsee]

Could somebody please justify having visible blue plastic while participating in an obviously medieval/rennasance oriented group?

It can't be price because that has been debunked already.

So what is it? Because all I see right now is a few people throwing tantrums because they don't want the people in charge telling them what to do.