Question from the SEM

[Balin50]

balin,

if your kingdom is fine and meets the appearance requirements already and its just us right coast folk why on earth would you care? or are you championing people that you think need a champion? if so, perhaps you should let those kingdoms decide if they need to fight the notion of simply holding people to a standard that has been in place for decades yet simply gets ignored by a few people.

as i said, and apparently confused poor maeyrk, we are the only game in town? of course not, there are plenty of other groups that have more lax rules than us. whats wrong with actually expecting people to follow those rules? i mean the arguments against a rule like this all boil down pretty much to "no, following those rules sucks". i dont understand that.

regards
logan

the appearance standard its for the guy at his first event (although he should not have on blue jeans anyway, its the rule) but rather the guy who takes the field. he has been around long enough that he cant be labeled as a "new guy". and yes, im sure someone will throw a "i authorized at my first event after only one practice" card. i find those difficult to imagine if i give credit for proper training and comprehension of our, overly complicated, rules of the list and conventions of combat. but thats another issue.

and i would say, in answer of your other question, that while there are some folks in atlantia that barely make any effort (silver spray paint on plastic legs still looks bad to me) the largest majority look pretty impressive. the newer fighters often look better than the 10 year guys i see from other kingdoms. they take pride in their appearance and it shows in their efforts. it used to be very easy to figure out, for example, who is the authorizing fighter when two guys are getting ready to begin an authorization. for the last few years it has become next to impossible to tell based on a visual inspection. its the norm in atlantia now and i doubt anyone misses the days when a guy would walk out on the field in camo pants and motorcross shoulder pads.

regards
logan

i did just that johnathan. in fact we went a step further and provided guidelines to help those that thought wearing a camo t-shirt under their motorcross plastic body thingy was a proper display of the warrior elite of pre-17th century wherever. the rules already said that they must do so, yet somehow they couldnt figure that out on their own. and by "they" i mean the dozen fighters in the entire kingdom that were that clueless and the many dozens that thought their white keds enhanced the look of the society.

surely you dont think blue jeans conform to the requirements relating to appearance when attending an sca event do you?

regards
logan

Again that is my point. I am OK with the crowns making additional laws to improve the appearance of their kingdom as it suits them to do so. I am glad that you took the initiative to improve upon your kingdom when it was your turn to do it.

No additional society level legislation was required for you to do it.

I do think that if some noob walks up and says "wow this is awesome" and wants to stick around but is wearing blue jeans and tennis shoes, throwing a tabard on the guy so he can feel like a part of the event is conforming to the requirements of an attempt to blend in so to speak. That's what the rule is for. Make an attempt to blend in and not be a sore thumb sticking out. A few modern bits sticking out here and there is going to happen now and then but that is ok. It's not a contest exactly but if we were all forced to meet the highest standards for appearance there would be no reason for us to give kudos (and sometimes awards) for authenticity. Those kudos and awards are there to encourage and promote authenticity. If it is mandate there is no reason to praise those who do it well.

Like Chris Rock says, you don't get an awared for doing what is expected of you.

"Man I aint never been to jail"
"Man you aren't supposed to go to jail!"

"Man I take care of my kids"
"Man you are supposed to take care of your kids! What do you want, a medal?"

Great it sounds like it works for Atlantia that had a problem with those guys, but not every kingdom does. We do not need a SCA wide rule.

Balin

I just think Kingdoms should be able to decide for themselves how if at all to implement this appearance rule. It should not be an SCA wide rule. The SCA standard should be what it has always been if kingdoms want to be more strict they can just like it has always been.

Balin

[Count Johnathan]

Guess I just have more faith in people to follow the spirit of the rules than you guys....

Obviously you don't if you think we need NEW legislation from the SEM regarding appearance in OUR kingdom which doesn't affect you in yours.

[dukelogan]

well gorm and maeyrk, you boys.... i tell ya.

ok, i understand now. you two think that wearing white sneakers is an attempt at pre-17th century footwear. you two think that blue jeans are also an attempt at pre-17th century clothing. you two think that taking the field with a neon green and yellow set of lacross shoulder pads with hockey elbows on your arms is an attempt to look like a pre-17th warrior.

ok, gotcha. now i understand why you two dont think that we have a problem with folks ignoring the appearance requirements to attend an sca event that are in copora and have been for many many years.

logan

[dukelogan]

i dont think the enforcement policy i put in place in atlantia is at all more strict than the appearance standard in corpora. in fact i would say it violates it since i specifically allowed certain things.

regards
logan

balin,

if your kingdom is fine and meets the appearance requirements already and its just us right coast folk why on earth would you care? or are you championing people that you think need a champion? if so, perhaps you should let those kingdoms decide if they need to fight the notion of simply holding people to a standard that has been in place for decades yet simply gets ignored by a few people.

as i said, and apparently confused poor maeyrk, we are the only game in town? of course not, there are plenty of other groups that have more lax rules than us. whats wrong with actually expecting people to follow those rules? i mean the arguments against a rule like this all boil down pretty much to "no, following those rules sucks". i dont understand that.

regards
logan

the appearance standard its for the guy at his first event (although he should not have on blue jeans anyway, its the rule) but rather the guy who takes the field. he has been around long enough that he cant be labeled as a "new guy". and yes, im sure someone will throw a "i authorized at my first event after only one practice" card. i find those difficult to imagine if i give credit for proper training and comprehension of our, overly complicated, rules of the list and conventions of combat. but thats another issue.

and i would say, in answer of your other question, that while there are some folks in atlantia that barely make any effort (silver spray paint on plastic legs still looks bad to me) the largest majority look pretty impressive. the newer fighters often look better than the 10 year guys i see from other kingdoms. they take pride in their appearance and it shows in their efforts. it used to be very easy to figure out, for example, who is the authorizing fighter when two guys are getting ready to begin an authorization. for the last few years it has become next to impossible to tell based on a visual inspection. its the norm in atlantia now and i doubt anyone misses the days when a guy would walk out on the field in camo pants and motorcross shoulder pads.

regards
logan

i did just that johnathan. in fact we went a step further and provided guidelines to help those that thought wearing a camo t-shirt under their motorcross plastic body thingy was a proper display of the warrior elite of pre-17th century wherever. the rules already said that they must do so, yet somehow they couldnt figure that out on their own. and by "they" i mean the dozen fighters in the entire kingdom that were that clueless and the many dozens that thought their white keds enhanced the look of the society.

surely you dont think blue jeans conform to the requirements relating to appearance when attending an sca event do you?

regards
logan

Again that is my point. I am OK with the crowns making additional laws to improve the appearance of their kingdom as it suits them to do so. I am glad that you took the initiative to improve upon your kingdom when it was your turn to do it.

No additional society level legislation was required for you to do it.

I do think that if some noob walks up and says "wow this is awesome" and wants to stick around but is wearing blue jeans and tennis shoes, throwing a tabard on the guy so he can feel like a part of the event is conforming to the requirements of an attempt to blend in so to speak. That's what the rule is for. Make an attempt to blend in and not be a sore thumb sticking out. A few modern bits sticking out here and there is going to happen now and then but that is ok. It's not a contest exactly but if we were all forced to meet the highest standards for appearance there would be no reason for us to give kudos (and sometimes awards) for authenticity. Those kudos and awards are there to encourage and promote authenticity. If it is mandate there is no reason to praise those who do it well.

Like Chris Rock says, you don't get an awared for doing what is expected of you.

"Man I aint never been to jail"
"Man you aren't supposed to go to jail!"

"Man I take care of my kids"
"Man you are supposed to take care of your kids! What do you want, a medal?"

Great it sounds like it works for Atlantia that had a problem with those guys, but not every kingdom does. We do not need a SCA wide rule.

Balin

I just think Kingdoms should be able to decide for themselves how if at all to implement this appearance rule. It should not be an SCA wide rule. The SCA standard should be what it has always been if kingdoms want to be more strict they can just like it has always been.

Balin

[Maeryk]

Could somebody please justify having visible blue plastic while participating in an obviously medieval/rennasance oriented group?

It can't be price because that has been debunked already.

So what is it? Because all I see right now is a few people throwing tantrums because they don't want the people in charge telling them what to do.

Is visible black plastic okay?

If you are going to say "well, it approxomates black or dark leather"..

here.. sky blue leather in the 1500s.

To Die Skynnes Blewe, or of the Colour of Asure
Having fyrst well washed the skinne, and than wronge him, take the berries of walwort, and elderberries, and seeth them in water, wherin Roche Alome was dissolved, pass him once thorowe this water and let him drie, than pass him again thorowe the same water, and being wiped and dried againe, wash him with cleere water, than scrape out that water with the back of a knife, and once again pass it over with the same colour, and let it dry so that it be of a very blew or Asur colour.

The Secretes of the Reverende Maister Alexis of Piemount, ANNO 1558

[dukelogan]

ummmmmmm.......

no. no they cant.

regards
logan

[quote="Riese Von Landsee"]Could somebody please justify having visible blue plastic while participating in an obviously medieval/rennasance oriented group?

quote]

[Balin50]

Could somebody please justify having visible blue plastic while participating in an obviously medieval/rennasance oriented group?

It can't be price because that has been debunked already.

So what is it? Because all I see right now is a few people throwing tantrums because they don't want the people in charge telling them what to do.

Or tennis shoes or basket hilts or or or or or or.

Armor meant to protect from melee combat is an attempt at pre 17th cen garb no matter what it is made out of. Justify a new SCA wide rule when only a couple of kingdoms seem to have a problem with how things are now.

Balin

[Maeryk]

well gorm and maeyrk, you boys.... i tell ya.

ok, i understand now. you two think that wearing white sneakers is an attempt at pre-17th century footwear. you two think that blue jeans are also an attempt at pre-17th century clothing. you two think that taking the field with a neon green and yellow set of lacross shoulder pads with hockey elbows on your arms is an attempt to look like a pre-17th warrior.

ok, gotcha. now i understand why you two dont think that we have a problem with folks ignoring the appearance requirements to attend an sca event that are in copora and have been for many many years.

logan

Nope. I didn't say that. I said I don't think black sneakers are any more an attempt than white sneakers. Nor do I feel that black plastic is any more an attempt than blue plastic. _THEY DIDN'T HAVE PLASTIC_. You want an "attempt"? Ban freakin plastic, period. Make everyone wear real leather, or real metal. THEN people are "making an attempt".

The appearance requirements merely say "an attempt". They don't quantify what COUNTS as an attempt. You are desiring to quantify that based on your pet peeves.

If you can tell me why this:



is a blatant flouting of "medieval appearance" but this



or this




IS an attempt, I might agree with you. NONE of them are medieval. none are "more medieval" than the others. ALL are purely modern.
[/quote]

[MJBlazek]

Armor meant to protect from melee combat is an attempt at pre 17th cen garb no matter what it is made out of.

I really can't believe you actually mean that.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Obviously you don't if you think we need NEW legislation from the SEM regarding appearance in OUR kingdom which doesn't affect you in yours.

Obviously. You're beanie is well tuned today.

As I've mentioned before, I see it as a clarification of not only a very vague rule, but also makes it clear that the scope of the rule extends to the list field - our most visible activity.

You tell the new guy "Hey, here is what we expect." They'll usually try to meet those expectations. If they don't try, or especially if they REFUSE to try, will they be contributing members to the group anyway? And if they don't need to follow that rule, why bother with any of the "medeivalism" we use?


.

[dukelogan]

no its not. sure, it might be needed for safety (ie basket hilts) but its not an attempt at pre-17th century armour. ok, well basket hilts are documentable but tennis shoes are not an attempt at anything. nor are they required for safety. even if they were they simply need to be covered up to look like medieval footwear, then an attempt has been made.

regards
logan

Could somebody please justify having visible blue plastic while participating in an obviously medieval/rennasance oriented group?

It can't be price because that has been debunked already.

So what is it? Because all I see right now is a few people throwing tantrums because they don't want the people in charge telling them what to do.

Or tennis shoes or basket hilts or or or or or or.

Armor meant to protect from melee combat is an attempt at pre 17th cen garb no matter what it is made out of. Justify a new SCA wide rule when only a couple of kingdoms seem to have a problem with how things are now.

Balin

[Balin50]

Armor meant to protect from melee combat is an attempt at pre 17th cen garb no matter what it is made out of.

I really can't believe you actually mean that.

Your right i see folks everyday in the mall in armor

[Riese Von Landsee]

Could somebody please justify having visible blue plastic while participating in an obviously medieval/rennasance oriented group?

It can't be price because that has been debunked already.

So what is it? Because all I see right now is a few people throwing tantrums because they don't want the people in charge telling them what to do.

Is visible black plastic okay?

If you are going to say "well, it approxomates black or dark leather"..

here.. sky blue leather in the 1500s.

To Die Skynnes Blewe, or of the Colour of Asure
Having fyrst well washed the skinne, and than wronge him, take the berries of walwort, and elderberries, and seeth them in water, wherin Roche Alome was dissolved, pass him once thorowe this water and let him drie, than pass him again thorowe the same water, and being wiped and dried againe, wash him with cleere water, than scrape out that water with the back of a knife, and once again pass it over with the same colour, and let it dry so that it be of a very blew or Asur colour.

The Secretes of the Reverende Maister Alexis of Piemount, ANNO 1558

Cool. Could we get a period dyed piece of leather and put it next to a chunk of blue barrel plastic? I have seen period dyes and none came close to the plastic, but maybe it looks different on leather. And this seems to address lightr leather suedes as it says to ring it out...do w know of them dying and hardening thicker leather for armor in this fashon?

[Gorm]

ummmmmmm.......

no. no they cant.

regards
logan

Umm...Maeryk just proved you wrong...*IF* you allow black plastic as it "looks like black leather, which is documentable" (which the current rules do)

Maeryk just displayed documentation for bright blue leather. By that same rule then, you either have to

1. allow blue plastic as a substitute for blue leather
2. deny blue plastic as "not documented" in which case you've just forced your Marshallate to decide what documentation is "Good enough", which you swear up and down this doesn't do
3. Ban black plastic as well, which your rule hasn't done for 8 years

Pick one.

[Count Johnathan]

really your grand rebuttal is quoting office space?

Perhaps the original minimum is not seen as enough becuase it really was never enough.

If you set the bar low enough in the mud, even snakes will be able to squirm over it.

Really? You joined up and paid for a membership didn't you? 40 years and millions of dollars worth of memberships paid to join and continue membership.

And now those who meet minimum requirements are considered snakes? You see where this is going and why I quoted office space? You should.

[Maeryk]

ummmmmmm.......

no. no they cant.

regards
logan

Could somebody please justify having visible blue plastic while participating in an obviously medieval/rennasance oriented group?

I'm guessing the polka-dotted suit from the Tower Collection is right out then?

[dukelogan]

the first two fail. the boots would, to the average passerby (the verbiage in my law), look ok. personally i dont like those kinds of boots but if you take the buckle off of them they are better and not so glaringly modern.

and to answer your question about black plastic vs blue plastic the answer is no, they do not look like leather. not the common barrel type. however this is what i put into place:

Undisguised plastic may not be used as a component of any armor, clothing, decorative accessories, weapons, footwear or other item worn or used by a participant in combat in the kingdom of Atlantia if that component is completely or partially visible to other combat participants or spectators, unless it is effectively indistinguishable from a period counterpart per the exception below.

and:

Plastic armor or modern sports equipment, whether kydex, ABS, HDDP or other, foam, pads, footwear, etc. should at all times be covered, unless it can positively contribute to the appearance of a fighter.

so common blue barrel or black barrel or whatever color is out. however, some things like a few examples of plastic lamellar do contribute to the appearance of a fighter. its rare but ive seen some. like the stuff noble plastics carries, specifically some of the brass/bronze/rust pieces.

logan

well gorm and maeyrk, you boys.... i tell ya.

ok, i understand now. you two think that wearing white sneakers is an attempt at pre-17th century footwear. you two think that blue jeans are also an attempt at pre-17th century clothing. you two think that taking the field with a neon green and yellow set of lacross shoulder pads with hockey elbows on your arms is an attempt to look like a pre-17th warrior.

ok, gotcha. now i understand why you two dont think that we have a problem with folks ignoring the appearance requirements to attend an sca event that are in copora and have been for many many years.

logan

Nope. I didn't say that. I said I don't think black sneakers are any more an attempt than white sneakers. Nor do I feel that black plastic is any more an attempt than blue plastic. _THEY DIDN'T HAVE PLASTIC_. You want an "attempt"? Ban freakin plastic, period. Make everyone wear real leather, or real metal. THEN people are "making an attempt".

The appearance requirements merely say "an attempt". They don't quantify what COUNTS as an attempt. You are desiring to quantify that based on your pet peeves.

If you can tell me why this:



is a blatant flouting of "medieval appearance" but this



or this




IS an attempt, I might agree with you. NONE of them are medieval. none are "more medieval" than the others. ALL are purely modern.

[/quote]

[dukelogan]

i guess youre right, well, if im limited to that kind of thinking.

or...... as my rules states, it looks like its medieval counterpart. barrel plastic looks like leather? are you serioud gorm? and black plastic is as banned (with a few listed safety exceptions) just like blue. i know you attack my law but you might try reading it. the word "blue" appears only once (blue jeans) and the word "black" doesnt appear at all. sorry, you got it all wrong.

logan

ummmmmmm.......

no. no they cant.

regards
logan

Umm...Maeryk just proved you wrong...*IF* you allow black plastic as it "looks like black leather, which is documentable" (which the current rules do)

Maeryk just displayed documentation for bright blue leather. By that same rule then, you either have to

1. allow blue plastic as a substitute for blue leather
2. deny blue plastic as "not documented" in which case you've just forced your Marshallate to decide what documentation is "Good enough", which you swear up and down this doesn't do
3. Ban black plastic as well, which your rule hasn't done for 8 years

Pick one.

[Maeryk]

Would steel armor painted smurf blue pass?

[Gorm]

Cool. Could we get a period dyed piece of leather and put it next to a chunk of blue barrel plastic? I have seen period dyes and none came close to the plastic, but maybe it looks different on leather. And this seems to address lightr leather suedes as it says to ring it out...do w know of them dying and hardening thicker leather for armor in this fashon?

See...here's the problem with that line of argument...

This entire debacle is presented as "it's obvious, and Marshals don't have to make judgement calls". When presented with numerous "I don't want to have to make a judgement call" comments, Logan's only rebuttal was "It's obvious, and you're in favor of sneakers" (which is utter bullshit, btw)

Now, consider the day you're preparing to Marshal an event...a fighter...maybe he's new, maybe he's a Multi-Peer...walks up to you in blue plastic armor...maybe it's decent looking, maybe it's ass....but he hands you the abstract Maeryk just posted....maybe he even hands you something more substantial....the other 89 fighters are waiting for the tourney to start...you have 30 pages of docs in your hand and a fighter arguing he's documented his stuff well enough.

What are you going to do? are we going to qualify marshals as A&S experts on what sort of docs are good enough? Are you going to delay the tournament while you convene the laurels to rule on the docs?

What are you going to do?

Let's say for the sake of argument that you decide "Fine, he made an effort at documenting it...I'll let him play and write it up for my Kingdom Superiors to rule on"...and move on...

Next week said fighter shows up at another event, this time without the docs, and says "It was good enough for Riese last week..." What do you expect them to do?

[Gorm]

i guess youre right, well, if im limited to that kind of thinking.

or...... as my rules states, it looks like its medieval counterpart. barrel plastic looks like leather? are you serioud gorm? and black plastic is as banned (with a few listed safety exceptions) just like blue. i know you attack my law but you might try reading it. the word "blue" appears only once (blue jeans) and the word "black" doesnt appear at all. sorry, you got it all wrong.

I've read your law, every single word.

Your exception clause:

Undisguised plastic may not be used as a component of any armor, clothing, decorative accessories, weapons, footwear or other item worn or used by a participant in combat in the kingdom of Atlantia if that component is completely or partially visible to other combat participants or spectators, unless it is effectively indistinguishable from a period counterpart per the exception below.

(emphasis mine).

Fighter X comes with his Master's in History thesis and allegedly period exemplars that look just like his Car Wash Barrel armor.

What's the call?

[AEiric Orvender]

If you can tell me why this:

Well with a little effort and about $8 worth of leather and glue it could look like this:

[Maeryk]

Could somebody please justify having visible blue plastic while participating in an obviously medieval/rennasance oriented group?

It can't be price because that has been debunked already.

So what is it? Because all I see right now is a few people throwing tantrums because they don't want the people in charge telling them what to do.

Is visible black plastic okay?

If you are going to say "well, it approxomates black or dark leather"..

here.. sky blue leather in the 1500s.

To Die Skynnes Blewe, or of the Colour of Asure
Having fyrst well washed the skinne, and than wronge him, take the berries of walwort, and elderberries, and seeth them in water, wherin Roche Alome was dissolved, pass him once thorowe this water and let him drie, than pass him again thorowe the same water, and being wiped and dried againe, wash him with cleere water, than scrape out that water with the back of a knife, and once again pass it over with the same colour, and let it dry so that it be of a very blew or Asur colour.

The Secretes of the Reverende Maister Alexis of Piemount, ANNO 1558

Cool. Could we get a period dyed piece of leather and put it next to a chunk of blue barrel plastic? I have seen period dyes and none came close to the plastic, but maybe it looks different on leather. And this seems to address lightr leather suedes as it says to ring it out...do w know of them dying and hardening thicker leather for armor in this fashon?

Only if you are also willing to do the same for the THOUSANDS of heraldic surcoats, as well as all the shield paints on the field and lauded for their appearance..

Hell, I'll bet you can't even find a passable white for a leather belt in medieval methods.

But, now I'm confused. When did we go from "an attempt" to "must exactly resemble"?

[Dauyd]

>I know of a couple of fighters who wear exposed blue barrel plastic 'newb' armor "because is pisses people off" (their quote) and they don't have to change it.



Oh yeah, like who? Do they even fight anymore?

Yup every year at Pennsic (well the past 5 years at least) they hail from Wisconson... don't know their SCA names they're into the whole SCA=Party w/ fighting thing.

I'm from Wisconsin- though I haven't made pennsic yet- and have no clue who you might be talking about. I've never seen anybody meeting that description at any of our events.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

See, the only black plastic I've seen that people said "mimiced leather" were the lamellar from Noble Plastic, and some plastic that was made with a deliberate "grain" to do so.

Plain, uncovered soap barrel plastic would only work (IMO) as part of Japanese armor, which was heavily laquered in those colors.



.

[Riese Von Landsee]

Simple.

Does his armor scream "I'm made out of plastic"? Or do I have to actually check it to figure it out?

I agree with logan, trying to document blue plastic is the same as somebody trying to document red football pads....modern looking armor is just that, modern. Now if you put the hours into making it look authentic? Props to you and you pass.

[Maeryk]

See, the only black plastic I've seen that people said "mimiced leather" were the lamellar from Noble Plastic, and some plastic that was made with a deliberate "grain" to do so.

Plain, uncovered soap barrel plastic would only work (IMO) as part of Japanese armor, which was heavily laquered in those colors.



.

Painted armor was not relegated only to the Japanese.

[Gorm]

Does his armor scream "I'm made out of plastic"? Or do I have to actually check it to figure it out?

So you're going to make a judgement call on whether someone's effort is good enough?

Funny...that's exactly what Logan claims doesn't have to be done...

[Maeryk]

Simple.

Does his armor scream "I'm made out of plastic"? Or do I have to actually check it to figure it out?

I agree with logan, trying to document blue plastic is the same as somebody trying to document red football pads....modern looking armor is just that, modern. Now if you put the hours into making it look authentic? Props to you and you pass.

Am I going to get the same answer from the next three guys I got from you?

[Balin50]

Simple.

Does his armor scream "I'm made out of plastic"? Or do I have to actually check it to figure it out?

I agree with logan, trying to document blue plastic is the same as somebody trying to document red football pads....modern looking armor is just that, modern. Now if you put the hours into making it look authentic? Props to you and you pass.

Like plastic basket hilts?

[Maeryk]

Simple.

Does his armor scream "I'm made out of plastic"? Or do I have to actually check it to figure it out?

I agree with logan, trying to document blue plastic is the same as somebody trying to document red football pads....modern looking armor is just that, modern. Now if you put the hours into making it look authentic? Props to you and you pass.

Like plastic basket hilts?

Or steel ones. I have yet to see a basket hilted broadsword from period.

[Gorm]

Like plastic basket hilts?

Nononono, silly, plastic basket hilts are specifically exempted because they're "necessary safety equipment"...apparently those sorts of things don't make us look bad.

[Balin50]

If you can tell me why this:

Well with a little effort and about $8 worth of leather and glue it could look like this:

And? Still looks like a modern shoe with leather scraps glue to it. What if i use faux fur and glue it to my shoes?



So inspections no are:

Are you safe.
Do you know the rules.
Are you dressed fabulously.

Yes your right i do see the need of this rule

Balin

[Diglach Mac Cein]

OK, then if it looks like the real thing did, rock on.

I've seen the Japanese pieces, and know how those look very much like shiney plastic. Haven't seen if European pieces look like that too.

But like riese said, if I have to take a real serious look to be sure of what it is from the sidelines, them that is cool!

I'm betting that if armor that looked like that showed up in Atlantia, it would pass.

.

[MJBlazek]

Armor meant to protect from melee combat is an attempt at pre 17th cen garb no matter what it is made out of.

I really can't believe you actually mean that.

Your right i see folks everyday in the mall in armor

See, now that actually made me laugh.