So, tool guys.. another idea.

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:36 pm

Ok, so after overthinking a ton of stuff, and while working on plans for a fly press, I started thinking about that riveting inside a helm thing again. And I have an idea.

Now, keep in mind, I am looking at using existing objects, or easily modified objects. I know proper tools exist, but this idea is to help with both reach and aim, while being both simple to use, and dirt cheap. No power used other than human. So please, don't refer me to commercial products. I need to know if MY idea will work. I know you mean the best when you tell me to do it right, and to spend money, but that really isn't the point of this thread.

Now, take a bit of pipe, .750
Steel bar stock, .750, 33% longer than the pipe.
Polish inside of pipe.
Polish outside of bar.
Slide bar into pipe, make sure they slide easily, but don't rattle much.
Radius both ends of the bar to .750.
On one end, grind down two sides of the radius, then grind/file a shallow anticlastic curve into the middle, crosswise.

So the idea is like an inverted slide hammer. Uppy/Downy motion, completely linear. If you go with an 18 inch bar, it'll weigh about 36oz, the anticlastic curve tip will center the tool on the rivet. When bonked down onto it, will peen two faces at once. Simply turn your bar with every strike just a bit, and with half a turn, is circles the rivet. You hold the pipe in place, and slide the bar, which I think would make it easier to aim. And the two faces on the anticlastic tip will, in my mind, keep the rivet from bending off to one side by equal force on the opposite side.

The simple radius would be used to swell rivets once the shop head is formed. flip it back over tot he anticlastic to clean up and finish rolling the shop head into the metal.

I want a tool that is simple to instruct in it's use, is dirt cheap to make or replace, and does not aggravate my carpal tunnel issues. My idea is that this tool, once aimed, can be used in a "Lift and let it go" way if need be.

Let me know what you think of my idea. (and really, please don't tell me to go buy something)

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:56 pm

A) I followed everything up until the anticlastic curve centering the tool on the rivet. Can you post a picture?

B) the ones in the top I usually mash into shape with a planishing stake, the difficult ones are at 45 degrees where you can't swing a hammer AND can't get straight line access too either.

C) I think that we've gotten fixated on the modern sense of perfect by putting the machined domed head on the outside, supporting the head in a matching divot and doing all the hammer work on the inside. I think historically you can see a lot of these rivets peened on the outside. Wouldn't 2 simpler tools be a plastic washer taped to the outside so misses don't mark up the surrounding metal and then a domed rivet set allow you do do everything from the easy direction?

Sean

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:56 pm

Can't really post a pic, but here's how I see it.

The anticlastic tip has two bumps. One on either side of the tail of the rivet, right about where you would strike with the ball peen. The bar inside moves freely, up and down so you could see it, or tell by feel if it was aligned correctly. Once it's in place, you would simply hold the pipe in place.

The main thing is that it can be used offhanded. My right wrist gets all touchy sometimes, and it's useless for anything other than grasping. If I can hold it in place, and strike with my left hand, even indirectly.. it's a boon. Also, aiming a hammer at all lefty puts me at great risk of having to drill a hole in a thumbnail.

And yeah, I like the look of a perfect factory head on the outside. And nice, somewhat uniform heads on the inside. I've never had a domed rivet set produce a domes rivet head. they're always lumpy, shanked, marked, dinged...

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:32 pm

Interesting concept.
A slide inside rivet peen hammer tool thing.
I like it.

I think it would only work for the very top rivets.

Yes my wrist hurts from flicking a Ball peen hammer.
That is why I made the helm dent removal mace tool.

:wink:

Best of luck with your quest little pilgram.

We need pics.

Hal

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:50 pm

Halberds wrote:Interesting concept.
A slide inside rivet peen hammer tool thing.
I like it.

I think it would only work for the very top rivets.

Not if I assemble sideways.

Look at the halves of a spangen. If you do all your shaping, and get everything right, mark and drill/punch, make sure it all aligns, assemble with cleco/pops, check fit, all that jazz.. then take it all apart. Instead of starting at the crown of the helm, start at the ears, assemble the spangs and side bands. Then do the top band, and brow bands. Now, the back plate might be tricky, but a slatback would be the same as the top, work from the outside, in.

If you already have it together right, and are taking it apart to finish, polish.. what order the parts go in doesn't matter. As long as they go in the same places. Instead of doing it the way that makes sense visually, do it the way that makes sense physically.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:20 pm

I assemble my spangens with nuts and screws yes.
They are taken apart for finishing.
Then reassembled for riveting.

I remove one screw and place a rivet in the hole.
Then peen it on the inside the best way I can.

The Tin/Lead Alloy rivet peen anvil keeps the rivet heads pristine.
However a divot in the cheap $15.00 harbour freight anvil works too. :wink:

Hal

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:33 pm

I haven't tried the sideways build yet. Just a thought I've had several times.

I've never been convinced that there was only one right way to do something. So when I have a problem to work out, I'm not stuck lookin at it the same way. In this case, the helmet is in my way of building a helmet. The obvious solution being work around the helmet.

I think I'll have fun testing "Move the helmet out the way".

And yeah, I'll see about pics of the tool, and the sideways assemble when I get to them, likely after Halloween.

Oh yeah, Hal.. the HF ASO works great as divot fodder... until you discover porosity of casting.. caved in an entire corner...

AwP · Post by **AwP** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:35 pm

What purpose does the pipe serve that couldn't be served by holding the bar itself? It seems like it'd bounce out of position after every hit if you're not holding the bar, though I could be mistaken.

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:41 pm

The pipe doesn't get hit, and doesn't transfer force. Won't jump. Also, the hammer in this case would be the bar. Nothing strikes the bar, it strikes rivets on its own.

It serves as a guide for the slide bar, we're not talking fist of an angry god strikes here. Lift the bar, and either slide it back down, or let it fall. Accuracy, no slipping off the rivet and deforming your sheet metal. If the pipe is over the rivet, the striking tool will hit the rivet before the sheet.

AwP · Post by **AwP** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:33 pm

Sorry it took me a bit to get back to this, I forgot I posted. So the pipe is actually down on the surface of the thing you're riveting? Ok, that makes more sense than the mental picture I had where you would hold the pipe up away from the surface. I was also thinking you were hitting it with a hammer, not using a heavy enough bar to just drop it. Makes much more sense to me now.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:52 pm

Sounds like hardware store stuff should work.
A 3/4" solid rod should fit in a 3/4" pipe as pipe is the inside dimension.

Now if it is seamless pipe you should be good to go.
If it is welded pipe I would recommend getting a rod slightly smaller.

We are anxious to know if the new tool idea is successful or not.
I am waiting on Pitbull to test his new tool.

Hal

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:44 pm

For some damned reason, nothing here is that way Hal. The local hardware store, Lowes, and Home Depo all stock by OD in metal. Barstock, and pipe. Which makes no damn sense. I thought pipe standard was set for volume control standard, hence the ID being what was important. So rather than spend money, I dug out an old Lowes gift card with ten bucks on it. I grabbed 1/2 pipe and 3/8 bar so I got about a 16th of play.

First test today. No pics, because it was made of failure. Not complete, but.. well.. yeah.

On 1/8 mild rivets, it smears that shank into a 1/16 flat tail.
On loose peened 1/8 mild, flat side of bar squashed clean with one blow.
3/16 mild, made shanks point instead of peened. Flip to use flat end, swell set the shanks, then the round end rolled them fine.
3/16 stainless. Flat end swell goes fine, Rolls fine. But really, 10 quick blows with the flat end swelled it to fill the holes, then smashed it flat down, forming a lip. VERY tight. VERY solid. With an unbroken edge.

Using the peen to roll the edge is difficult within the tube. Can't see it and all. A tighter fit on the pipe, and a shallower radius on the peen end of the bar should fix that, I'll try that next week. With a swollen shank, the 16th should put the peen offset enough to roll the edge.

More testing next week, pictures when I have a properly working version.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:27 pm

The first run sounds encouraging enough to forge ahead.
A better fit on the rod and pipe should improve performance.

I was thinking about your description of one end of the rod.
Yes if one end looked like a potato chip (anticlastic curve) it should peen nice as it turns in the pipe.

What I think would help... if the rod striking end was hardened.
Perhaps a 4140 rod. McMaster-Carr :wink:

Keep up the good work, and thanks for the update.

Hal

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:36 pm

Another interesting thing I forgot to mention.

All the shanks were 3/8. The riveting tests were done with 2 bits of scrap, .080 for the 3/16, and .062 for the 1/8. As you can imagine, this leaves the shanks a touch long on 3/16, but I like it that way. On the 1/8 it's ridiculous. And you know what happens.. one missed blow, it skates off and bends.

Well, in the pipe, the off center blows did not bend the shanks. Sure, as I said earlier, it squashed them to the side, but it was the tool that moved, not the rivet. On the loose peened 1/8, as I said, it squashed them flat and even. Like, the marshmallow in your s'more, same volume, displaced.

Also, there's half my upper body on that pipe. Not sure on how the math works, but I'm a stout 210 (or a regular 240). So the sheet is pressed firmly.. really firmly.. when that rivet is set.

Oh, and Hall, you were mostly right on the angles. It has to be with 5 degrees of 90 to work well. When I was resetting loosened rivets inside a helm, the crest line rivets went like a dream. I went on the round to see where the break point was on it, and it's not at the cheek/ backplate bottom as I had hoped. I forgot you have to consider the angle of the shop head in relation to the striking tip.

And yeah, am already lookin at McMaster already.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:25 pm

Yes if it was shorty enough to work inside it wouldn't have the mass.

I have never assembled a spangen sideways, least I don't think so.
Is that building both sides then riveting the front to back strap last?

How do you deal with a one piece head band?
Or is your head band in two pieces?

Hal

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:57 pm

Haven't tried it yet.

The idea is to assemble the side bands and the plates, then attach these to the center band. Then, attach the whole works to the brow band, and work downward from there.

It would require absolute shaping and hole matching before riveting. Couldn't really pull them together with bolts and make it fit, as things would move where they aren't supposed to, or lock up and not bend in other areas they need to later.

And if the tool works out as I want it too, I can do everything on an 85-95 until the bar grill and whatnot. but on those, I don't have much issue with the ball peen.

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:35 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2LxpSS0NP8&NR=1

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:53 pm

That was a good sheet metal works movie with rivet air gun.

I tried one inside a helm once.
It went crazy and skidded off the rivet and spangen band right across a finished panel.

Johann Lederer · Post by **Johann Lederer** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:00 am

When I helped my friend work on his Valsgaard kit from Zwiehammer, we got really tired of setting rivets by hand so...

I bought a cheap impact hammer at HF:
http://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools/ ... 32940.html

It does not come with a rivet head, but does come with the pointed tool head. I cut it off, ground out a rivet dimple in it and did a crappy heat treating on the head. I made a similar buck out of a RR spike because I wanted domed heads on both sides.

It works, but like Hal said, it skips off even with domed rivet sets. You have to be VERY careful when you use it. I really wish I had my fathers old rivet set and bucks from when he worked in the Aircraft industry...

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:15 am

Yeah, using a pneumatic at a right angle inside a helm just doesn't appeal to me. Loss of control and all that.

The tool isn't to replace an air compressor, or rivet gun, or even to replace Hal's long hammer. For me, it's a cheap alternative that requires no electricity, compressed air, or even skill with a hammer to use.

Raeven · Post by **Raeven** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:51 am

Couple of things.

1. If the rivet isn't a pivot point, you don't need to peen around the edge of it. Just flatten it. A flat peened rivet is just as strong or stronger than a rounded peened rivet. I know they banged around the edge in the old days, but really, the only time you ever need to do that is when you don't want the shank of the rivet to swell inside the hole. Just don't flatten the butt so much it's tin foil.

2. The most common reasons the rivent shank lays over is two fold. Most common, you are starting with a rivet shank that is too long (even if by a tiny amount). Second is your rivet set isn't perpindicular to the rivet. Combine the two and your rivet will lay over.

3. Hal, I'm assuming from your description you were trying to use a flat set on the butt of the rivet? The rivet gun hits on the head of the rivet, not the butt. The transfer of energy turns the bucking bar into the hammer head, doing the same work as your ball peen and a lead tin block. And take it from me and Alcy, it is a whole lot easier if you have one person to hold the bucking bar and one to control the rivet gun. The problem you saw was not having enough pressure on the rivet gun to keep it from moving off the rivet. That video fails in how easy it makes rivetting seem. The guy setting those rivets is actually putting a lot of pressure squeezing the rivet gun towards the bucking bar.

Also, remember to let go of the trigger and let the rivet gun stop before you release pressure. That's how most rivets get cut and how most skins get banged up.

4. Rivet sets and bucking bars are cheap, if you already have a impact gun and air compressor.

http://www.browntool.com/Default.aspx?t ... ductNumber

http://www.browntool.com/Default.aspx?t ... ductNumber

Your idea of using an anticlastic curve is interesting. I have to ask, if you are going to put any sort of curve in the set, why not just make a cup? It'll do the same thing you want the anticlastic cure to do, won't it?

How heavy is the bar? Definately need pics. I still am not sure exactly what you are trying here.

Raeven · Post by **Raeven** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:17 am

Huh. I was wrong about one thing. Back rivetting does exist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xuu6nIZRPo

This is what I mean by having a proper helper. Notice how Dad helps put good pressure on the rivet gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M0g53PuwMk

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:20 am

I haven't tried the curve in the tool tip. But I will.

The reason for it being an anticlastic curve instead of a cup, is that with a cup, the metal can't move away from the tool to the sides, with the curve it can, and as you peen, you can simply twist the tool a bit between strikes. Now, it may be completely pointless, and no more useful than a normal rivet divot. But I won't know until I do both, really.

If a flat squash shop head is the better stronger way to go.. why do they make orbital riveting machines? It seems like that would be a really expensive way to waste time and power if it did nothing better than a hammer does.

I used to use this spiffy tool for chamfering rod ends. Was like a pencil sharpener only with a carbide blade and a 1/4 hex shaft. Had a whole set of them from 1/8th on up to 3/4 by 16ths. Stick them in a nut driver handle, and one twist chamfers. But for the life of me, I cannot remember the proper name for them, where to buy them, or where in the name of Zeus' Butthole mine went. It would be perfect for breaking the edges on a flat squashed rivet. Anybody have a set of these, or know what the hell they are called?

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:23 am

Tube deburrer.

http://www.toolfetch.com/Category/Pipe_Working/Deburring_Tools/70075.htm

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:26 am

Maeryk wrote:Tube deburrer.

http://www.toolfetch.com/Category/Pipe_Working/Deburring_Tools/70075.htm

Thanks Maeryk. It's not exactly what I used to have, but looks like it will work just dandy for the purpose, provided I can find them in smaller sizes.

Raeven · Post by **Raeven** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:59 am

Odd wrote:If a flat squash shop head is the better stronger way to go.. why do they make orbital riveting machines? It seems like that would be a really expensive way to waste time and power if it did nothing better than a hammer does.

I'm talking hand tools here, not multi thousand dollar machines. Oribital rivet machines manage to work just the rivet. When you want to rivet thin or easily deformed items together, it's ideal. Same concept with peenign around a rivet. You want to deform just the rivet butt and not the shank, so your piece can pivot or so that you don't deform thin metals.

When you are just banging a spangen together, it's an impractical method to rivet when you DO want the rivet shank to fill the hole and keep the two pieces being rivetted from moving at all.

Each method has it's uses.

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:20 pm

I think that the tool you are wanting is something similar to a cup burr. http://www.contenti.com/products/_enlar ... ction=burs

Generally, you would put what ever pneumatic tool you are using on the outside, and the bucking bar on the inside. That gives you a better finished head on the side you can see. Plus, if the tool marks are on the inside, you don't have to remove as much of them. It takes practice, and best of all, someone who knows what they are doing to show you to do.

The videos make it look pretty easy because they are using soft rivets, and small ones. For real fun, try Monel rivets, and for lots of fun, titanium! They really don't want to swell or compress.

If I was making helmets with lots of rivets, or as a production armorer, I'd use a rivet gun. I even bought a nice recoilless rivet gun but it was stolen in a burglary.

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:13 pm

And with titanium, if you get struck by lightning the rivets take on rainbow hues.

The deburring tool I was talking about is very much like a cup burr. But with a carbide bit that was replacable from the outside via allen wrench. Got them off the ghetto tool truck.

And yeah, guys.. I know how to the the job properly, with pneumatic tools, with a hammer. This is a specialty tool I am wanting to try for certain uses, when one cannot spend the money on the proper tools.

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:13 pm

Ok, the anticlastic was filed in, and tested.

Failure. The concept may work in better steel, but I think it may be inherently fragile. This experiment being done in cold rolled hardware store stock.

After running ten rivets this morning, in 3/16 mild, I have decided that I need to put off further testing until I get proper tool materials. It goes about 75% of deform to the rivet, and 25% goes back into chewing up the steel bar. Now, this is only on the steel rivets, and only on the radius surface.

The flat surface takes it like a champ, dings here and there, but doesn't deform or lose shape. And brass/copper/aluminum rivets all are butter compared to even mild steel.

It also knocks aluminum pop rivets out clean as a whistle. impact shears the heads, and tosses them through the hole, across the floor, and directly underfoot.

Further testing delayed until proper steel is acquired which may be thanksgiving or so, maybe early December. The wife has reminded me that my son is due to arrive any day, and I cannot buy any more materials until we have the new budget worked out.

Raeven · Post by **Raeven** » Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:11 am

Pics. Even phone camera pics!!

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:48 am

It'll be a bit longer, my wife is due any day now and we're still getting things ready. She hasn't banned me from banging on metal yet, but she has denied further material purchases until we know if the kiddo is gonna be allergic to different kinds of diapers and buttcream and whatnot.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:11 am

As a fellow parent, let me say that unless your shop is distant, sound-proofed, or you only work when your newborn is awake you will have to curtail your tool construction for a while. Been there done that... still doing so as a matter of fact.

Sean