[SCA] SEM Considering Fechtbuch Techniques

Conal · Post by **Conal** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:33 pm

Cross-posted from Jester's thread, "[SCA] Request for comments":

Jester,

You are quite correct in your interpretation of what constraints the SEM is operating under. However, I will tell you that he is aware of the growing interest in fechtbuch techniques and is considering the issue. By "considering" the issue, I mean just that -- he's thinking about it, how the SCA could or should do it, what the liability issues will be, what rules would need to be changed, and where this activity would fall. As a matter of fact, he has appointed me to gather information and coordinate reponses to the issue. I am his Deputy for Special Projects, and he has decided that there is enough interest in this to consider it to be a "special project."

At the moment, since this has not been "officially" announced in any way, consider this to be just a heads-up, and possibly subject to change. I will gladly take a look at your draft document. If anyone has any other documentation or commentary, please send it to me at my email address, which you can find on the SEM's page, through www.sca.org.

Please understand that this will not be a quick process, from start to finish. There are a lot of folks -- from the guys and gals on the field, to the Senior Kingdom Marshals, to the Society Marshallate and Board -- who will have to be consulted.

In the meantime, everyone please be aware of the Society armored combat rules, which specifically disallow grappling, the issue always raised when fechtbuch techniques are discussed in the SCA. If you have experimented with these techniques (the ones that involve grappling) in an official SCA context, then you have "gotten away" with something the current SEM considers to be illegal. I tell you this not to warn you of any punitive action for past "mistakes," but to ask you to consider carefully your practices in the future. Grappling is illegal in official SCA combat. Any marshal who allowed it in the past was, to the SEM's way of thinking, in error.

I realize that you guys are probably about to bury me under a barrage of electronic correspondence, so please don't expect a response, let alone a quick one to everything you send. This is, in some ways, a deep pool, and I am only now sticking my toe in it. :-)

Thanks for your interest, and for your service to the Society and historical re-creation.

Regards,

Sir Conal MacDale
Deputy SEM, Special Projects

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:12 pm

(still on a computer that has no spell check)

Repeating what I put on Jester's thread.

Given the information put forward.

Jester offered to hold a workshop on historical techniques. This was in no way portrayed as being instruction on SCA combat or competivie . He was told that he couldn't by the marshalate.

I fully understand the marshalate regulation of competitive combat, but I find regulation of instruction and demonstation of period combat techniques disturbing. If its in a non competitive environment i.e. an educational setting, I don't see it as touching on the marhallete's sphere of influence.

I'll be submiting email to Conal on this, but I felt it deserved a reply here.

Asbjorn

jester · Post by **jester** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:40 pm

The situation as I understand it:

From Corpora, page 19, the definition of the duties of the Kingdom Earl Marshal:

"The Earl Marshal is responsible for overseeing the conduct of all martial arts activities, including, but not limited to tournament lists, wars, combat archery, and fencing, as well as such related activities as scouting and target archery."

The key phrases here are: "all martial arts activities" and "including, but not limited to". This clearly places the study of historic swordsmanship (if you are going to execute any of the techniques under any conditions) within the responsibility of the marshallate.

I don't like it but there it is.

Thank you for the message Sir Conal.

Conal · Post by **Conal** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:54 pm

Asbjorn,

(I know what you mean about the spell-checker thing).

What Jester said. "All martial activities."

Now, I do believe that choreographed demonstrations of period techniques could be allowed, at the discretion of your Kingdom Earl Marshal and Sovereign, because:

Rules of the List #8, "Fighting with real weapons, whether fast or slow, is strictly forbidden at any Society event. This rule does not consider approved weaponry which meets the Society and Kingdom standards for traditional Society combat and/ or Society period rapier combat, used in the context of mutual sport, to be real weaponry."

and referencing #8, the RoL go on to say, "At the discretion of the Sovereign and the Marshal in Charge recognized experts may be permitted to present choreographed demonstrations with real weapons under strictly controlled conditions."

So, a "strictly controlled," choreographed demonstration with wasters should be no problem, so long as your Sovereign and MiC agree (and most likely, your Kingdom EM). As Jester says in his draft HSS rules, if it becomes fighting, it is no longer within the rules of the SCA, Inc. This includes practice, whether fast or slow. Having a marshal on hand to monitor the choreographed demo would seem to be a wise move.

I look forward to your email. Thanks!

Regards,

Conal

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 4:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jester:
The key phrases here are: "all martial arts activities" and "including, but not limited to". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except that boffers and equestrian activities are also not under the Marshals.

Juliana

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 4:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FrauHirsch:

Except that boffers and equestrian activities are also not under the Marshals.

Juliana<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boffers certainly are not, but probably should be. Equestrian events I beleive ARE and untill people actualy start tilting, or fighting from horseback, don't need to be.

One of the things that irks me about the structure of the Marshallatte, is that SCA combat started with heavy weapons. As people learned more and the society grew to include a good deal of other activities, the marshalls, being the only people with strict dogma governing their policies, got put in charge of everything (and this is easily a misinterpretation of events that transpired before 'my time').

WHY this irks me, is because some time ago I was the local group's Knight Marshall. I knew JACK about archery, and less about fencing, I was a dumb stick jock that made sure people signed waivers. So now, I have 2 deputies one for archery, and one for fencing, and thank god no one around here has a horse, resenting the fact that they have to report to ME, when I know nothing about what they're reporting.

Not to say that all marshals are the least bit like me, but enough of them are. The fencing, archery, and equestrian communities are far enough along, and easily more capable of monitoring their own activities than a heavy weapons minded marshallate.

But... I'm hijacking the thread.

Conal · Post by **Conal** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 4:56 pm

Equestrian activities currently fall under the purview of the Marshal's office at the Society level, although the SEM is trying to change that. :-)

At the Society level, boffers do not, true. However, I believe that is by choice. I believe past EM's regarded them as more of a game than a martial activity, and so left that decision up to individual kingdoms. You will find that some kingdoms do, indeed, include boffer activities under their marshal's office.

Regards,

Conal

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:17 pm

First let me say thank your for your well reasoned responses.

"The Earl Marshal is responsible for overseeing the conduct of all martial arts activities, including, but not limited to tournament lists, wars, combat archery, and fencing, as well as such related activities as scouting and target archery."

My concern is that if you interpret this so broadly as to include instuction on period techniques (not competition), does this also mean that the marshalate is also responsible for say a class on Roman tactics taught at a schola, or a class showing how to construct a period siege weapon?

I do not think this broad interpretation is the intention behind the rules. I think this needs to be clarrified by the BOD.

"Fighting with real weapons, whether fast or slow, is strictly forbidden at any Society event"

Fighting implies some sort of competitive intention. If you are teaching a technique, you are not competing. Fighting has very specific implications, these implications would seem to me to place a class on period techniques well outside of this rule, because if you are simply teaching a technique you are not fighting against some one.

Also, we fail to define what a "real weapon" is? Is it a sharp sword, a blunted sword, a waster, a piece of PVC?

"At the discretion of the Sovereign and the Marshal in Charge recognized experts may be permitted to present choreographed demonstrations with real weapons under strictly controlled conditions."

Coreographed demonstrations would seem to imply correographed fighting as what some Renfairs do (block, parry, thrust, HAH!). showing a technique from Fiore is a long way from choreographed fighting. (Not to mention very few folks teach with sharps, once again we run into that "real weapons" bit). If this really was the issue it would mean folks could teach as long as they don't use real weapons.

Out of interest, if any here knows, I know Regia Algorum (sp?) combat was demonstated at a couple of SCA events over the past year. Was this the rule it was allowed by?

I know much of this is spliting hairs, but I really think these issues need to be clarrified.

I really hope I'm not comming out as too strident.

Once again I appreciate the well thought out responses I have recieved so far.

Asbjorn

[This message has been edited by Asbjorn Johansen (edited 03-28-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Asbjorn Johansen (edited 03-28-2003).]

Conal · Post by **Conal** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:41 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Asbjorn Johansen:
[B]First let me say thank your for your well reasoned responses.

"The Earl Marshal is responsible for overseeing the conduct of all martial arts activities, including, but not limited to tournament lists, wars, combat archery, and fencing, as well as such related activities as scouting and target archery."

My concern is that if you interpret this so broadly as to include instuction on period techniques (not competition), does this also mean that the marshalate is also responsible for say a class on Roman tactics taught at a schola, or a class showing how to construct a period siege weapon?

I do not think this broad interpretation is the intention behind the rules. I think this needs to be clarrified by the BOD.

"Fighting with real weapons, whether fast or slow, is strictly forbidden at any Society event"

Fighting implies some sort of competitive intention. If you are teaching a technique, you are not competing. Fighting has very specific implications, these implications would seem to me to place a class on period techniques well outside of this rule, because if you are simply teaching a technique you are not fighting against some one.

Also, we fail to define what a "real weapon" is? Is it a sharp sword, a blunted sword, a waster, a piece of PVC?

"At the discretion of the Sovereign and the Marshal in Charge recognized experts may be permitted to present choreographed demonstrations with real weapons under strictly controlled conditions."

Coreographed demonstrations would seem to imply correographed fighting as what some Renfairs do (block, parry, thrust, HAH!). showing a technique from Fiore is a long way from choreographed fighting.

Out of interest, if any here knows, I know Regia Algorum (sp?) combat was demonstated at a couple of SCA events over the past year. Was this the rule it was allowed by?

I know much of this is spliting hairs, but I really think these issues need to be clarrified.

Asbjorn

Asbjorn,

I agree with you on the clarification issue, and I would say that this is one of the first, comprehensive steps we at Society have yet taken to clarify the whole issue. You bring up good points, some of which I agree, some of which -- well, maybe not. :-)

I'm not really here to argue, just to tell you where we're at, and how we're trying to gather info to figure out a substantive and complete opinion and ruling on the subject, which will, yes, have to be approved by the BoD in its final form.

On the Regia thing, to my knowledge this didn't actually ever happen. I believe I may be at the center of the confusion on this subject. I saw a post here or elsewhere for a Regia demo at an Estrella, what -- two years ago, maybe three? I sent an email to the then SEM, Duke Eringlin, asking if this was legit, and if so, how? As a KEM, at that time, I had also been approached about the same thing at a Gulf Wars, and wanted to know the answer. He replied that it could, indeed, occur, so long as the Sovereign and KEM were Ok with it. He was, he realized soon thereafter, incorrect. He had thought I meant a choreographed demonstration, not a rebated steel fighting demonstration. He sent me a follow-up email very soon thereafter, correcting himself. I believe I had already posted a version of his initial reply, which I later retracted (I think).

If it did occur somewhere, let's keep it to ourselves. :-)

It's not allowed by the rules.

Now, as a personal aside, I tend to think there ought to be some mechanism whereby the SCA can allow demonstrations by other organizations at its functions, and not get into trouble with lawyers, insurance agents, and organized criminals. :-)

I think it would only be neighborly. I will try to include this issue in the fechtbuch/HSS discussion, as I think it's closely related.

Regards,

Conal

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Conal:
Now, as a personal aside, I tend to think there ought to be some mechanism whereby the SCA can allow demonstrations by other organizations at its functions, and not get into trouble with lawyers, insurance agents, and organized criminals. :-)

I think it would only be neighborly. I will try to include this issue in the fechtbuch/HSS discussion, as I think it's closely related.

Regards,

Conal <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that would be an excellent idea. Perhaps all we need is a process for authorization from certain people (Crowns, Marshals, Seneschals) and the ability of the other group to have insurance that covers itself.

I know this happens with ren faires all the time in the Adrian Empire and I suspect it to be so in SCA too. A ren faire may have its own insurance, but want us to be covered by our own insurance for rebated steel fighting. So we do all the things internal to the Adrian empire to make it an "officially sanctioned event" and thus covered by Adrian insurance. Then the faire doesn't have to cover any additional costs from our specific activity.

Some type of allowance for the SCA to have channels available for WMA, AEMMA, or even jousting demos if the group had its own insurance (an event within an event) and safety documents might allow both groups to benefit.

As a side note:

After watching some of the 'stage parenting' and some of the rhinoing in boffers I must say that I think it should be under the marshallate. Those kids are competing, and unfortunately some of the parents are too. Some of the worst I've seen are where the parents are both non-combatants who are "living" through the wins of their 6 yr olds!! EEEKS! With "boffer marshals" who expect five yr olds to "do the right thing" and call their own blows, but that is another thread entirely :-/

Juliana

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 7:26 pm

Sir Conal,

This is absolutely the best news I've ever heard for the SCA.

I'd like to see a bit more "wiggle room" for the marshallate to approve experiments, which I understand now are bounded by Society rules. I wouldn't suggest that any rule be loosened without having the opportunity to experiment in an SCA environment. I know how a small group of likeminded friends would handle half-swording, and I believe it can be done safely - what remains to be seen is how it would work if allowed Society wide. Only experimenting will give us that answer with any assurance.

The insurance/liability issue is the one that seems to pop up most quickly when things like demos by other groups, WMA seminars, etc. are mentioned. If all the members of such activities were covered by their own private or group insurance, would that ease Society concerns in that area? If this is indeed the dealbreaker, then the fix is quick, cheap, and easily available. Perhaps a copy of one's private insurance could be sent to the Authorization Marshall, and a card issued showing that proof of insurance has been provided and the holder is approved for "advanced" combat activities.

Payn · Post by **Payn** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 5:24 am

This ould be a tremendous boon to what it is that I am trying to do now. Using bastard sword and a small buckler I am attempting to do fechtbuch work using the shield to do presses on my opponents sheild and weapon. Allowing me to get rid of this constraint would broaden the scope of work.

While I understand that there is nothing official yet, I would be willing to work with both SEM and my KEM in this endeavour. I will admit that much of what I have been doing is passed before my KEM before I incorporate them into my combat.

Anyways, I will be watching this with great anticipation.

Thanks
Fritz

Jon Eppler · Post by **Jon Eppler** » Sat Mar 29, 2003 2:27 pm

This is definately good news. I had to start a WMA group at a local martial arts school just to get to work on period fechtbuch techniques. I still fight in the SCA in rapier and as one of Northern Ansteorra's experimental sidesword marshalls, as this has been our most authenticity based fighting system. If you have to, get a group started outside of the SCA and learn the material so that there are more voices showing that it can be done safely while helping promote change from within. Above all, if you care about this organize,educate and advocate to those who havn't seen it. If the SCA promoted more awareness of period technique, it would help improve our overall credibility in a rapidly expanding martial arts community.

Ld. Johann Wulfgang Von Brandenberg
MKA Jon Eppler

William MacCrimmon · Post by **William MacCrimmon** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:49 am

In the East Kingdom (SCA), boffer activities within the Pages program (kids) are squarely under the control of the Earl Marshal.

-William

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by FrauHirsch:

Except that boffers and equestrian activities are also not under the Marshals.

Juliana<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

William MacCrimmon · Post by **William MacCrimmon** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 12:07 pm

Did anyone get to the East Kingdom University event a year or so ago where they flew Bob Charron in for his Fiore seminar? (I couldn't make it.)
I think it was up near the Higgins armor museum in Massachusetts.

Just thinking of it as a very good example of how one could in the short run include the fechtbuch information within the scope of the SCA.

-William

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Conal:
[B]Cross-posted from Jester's thread, "[SCA] Request for comments":

Please understand that this will not be a quick process, from start to finish. There are a lot of folks -- from the guys and gals on the field, to the Senior Kingdom Marshals, to the Society Marshallate and Board -- who will have to be consulted.

In the meantime, everyone please be aware of the Society armored combat rules, which specifically disallow grappling, the issue always raised when fechtbuch techniques are discussed in the SCA. If you have experimented with these techniques (the ones that involve grappling) in an official SCA context, then you have "gotten away" with something the current SEM considers to be illegal. I tell you this not to warn you of any punitive action for past "mistakes," but to ask you to consider carefully your practices in the future. Grappling is illegal in official SCA combat. Any marshal who allowed it in the past was, to the SEM's way of thinking, in error.

jester · Post by **jester** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:17 pm

Note: I am not speaking for the marshallate. As I understand it you couldn't run one of these seminars as an SCA event because folks get up and try some of the techniques. Of course, I could be wrong but aside from Bob's obvious expertise (and my lack thereof) I don't see any significant difference between this and the study group practice I attempted to organize.

John Jordan

(And yes, I have been to one of Bob's fantastic seminars. I organized a seminar here in Denver last year and have organized another on for this April 26-27, 2003 [both non-SCA events])

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by William MacCrimmon:
Did anyone get to the East Kingdom University event a year or so ago where they flew Bob Charron in for his Fiore seminar? (I couldn't make it.)
I think it was up near the Higgins armor museum in Massachusetts.

Just thinking of it as a very good example of how one could in the short run include the fechtbuch information within the scope of the SCA.

-William

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Conal:
[B]Cross-posted from Jester's thread, "[SCA] Request for comments":

Please understand that this will not be a quick process, from start to finish. There are a lot of folks -- from the guys and gals on the field, to the Senior Kingdom Marshals, to the Society Marshallate and Board -- who will have to be consulted.

In the meantime, everyone please be aware of the Society armored combat rules, which specifically disallow grappling, the issue always raised when fechtbuch techniques are discussed in the SCA. If you have experimented with these techniques (the ones that involve grappling) in an official SCA context, then you have "gotten away" with something the current SEM considers to be illegal. I tell you this not to warn you of any punitive action for past "mistakes," but to ask you to consider carefully your practices in the future. Grappling is illegal in official SCA combat. Any marshal who allowed it in the past was, to the SEM's way of thinking, in error.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:41 pm

I am still a little foggy on what is -exactly- being barred. An email to the SEM directed me to my KEM who refered to WMA techniques as an aggregate. I didn't have time to keenly question him but I get the feeling that the marshallate is working with a very narrow definition of "WMA" that means grappling, arm locks and leg sweeps or throws. My problem with this is that there are historic techniques that do not involve these things yet I fear that because they are "historic techniques" people teaching them will be told to stop. I think a bit more definite language by the SEM is in order here to clear up what is permitted and what is forbidden.
And no I am not that thick but I do like to have rules that are precise and well written rather than vague, overinclusive, and hard to interpret.
Anybody got an update on exactly what the SEM doesn't like?

------------------
Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain
Failure is the price of knowledge
Changing the face of warfare one weapon at a time

William MacCrimmon · Post by **William MacCrimmon** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 1:54 pm

Interesting. I don't see any significant difference either.
I wonder if the SCA Marshallate came to that decision after the event that Bob did the seminar at?
Or if they're thinking folks want (and some probably do), tournaments will all of the assorted fechtbuch moves?

For my money, a seminar/class is a completely different kettle of fish from having a tournament. I wouldn't bat an eyelash at allowing the seminar. Aren't we here to teach and study after all?

Tournaments? Vive la difference.
I'm airborne enough with the normal rules of the SCA. I'm curious to see what a couple of years of peoples' comments have. It's a wonderful thing to me that folks are doing so much work to translate and make the fighting manuals accessible to a wider audience.

-William
>>>>>>>>
Posted by Jester:
Note: I am not speaking for the marshallate. As I understand it you couldn't run one of these seminars as an SCA event because folks get up and try some of the techniques. Of course, I could be wrong but aside from Bob's obvious expertise (and my lack thereof) I don't see any significant difference between this and the study group practice I attempted to organize.
John Jordan