14th cent gauntlet - apprentice piece

[Graham Ashford]

Hello folks

Thought I would share the latest piece I have made, although not entirely unaided as this is an apprentice piece made with and under the expert guidance from Dave at White Rose Armoury. Ever since first understanding men put metal on themselves when they went out to 'play' I have wanted to make/own a pair of these.

Expert guidance by Dave made a big difference to the piece, I suspect it would have been many years before being able to produce this fine a piece as I hope this is on my own merits; but I would also like to thank and encourage everyone on the forum who has posted images of their work, their progression and their successes and mistakes as it helps and inspires people to take up the hammer and have a go themselves. So keep the pictures and work diaries coming, it makes a monster of a difference to people wanting to get started; at least it does in my experience.

As ever I invite criticism, thoughts and anything else that's left.





Kindest regards

Graham

[MattB]

You know from FB that I like them, no real criticisms from me, you should be proud!

Matt

[Frederich Von Teufel]

Beautiful job, you should be proud of your work. My compliments to you and Dave on the patterning. The piece was inspired by the gauntlet in the Wallace, I presume?

In no way is the following criticism, simply a suggestion as to what might be improved in the future: The edges/lines of the pyramids of the knuckles could be crisper (not certain how much of the blurring is due to buffing overrun and how much to the photos, so I'm making the suggestion based on what I see. The points/tops are nice and crisp, but the rest looses definition.) It also looks like there is either punching or etching along the inner edge of the cuffs which is hard to discern in the photos. The work looks like it could be deeper and might benefit from a touch of niello/surface-blackener.


Frederich

[Gerhard von Liebau]

The edges/lines of the pyramids of the knuckles could be crisper (not certain how much of the blurring is due to buffing overrun and how much to the photos, so I'm making the suggestion based on what I see. The points/tops are nice and crisp, but the rest looses definition.)

I'm not sure how well-defined the originals we have were because I haven't bothered looking in a while... But I assume that some variety was present in period, of course, so I won't even bother to be critical of this gauntlet from a historic perspective. I was struck the first time I glanced at the thread this morning by how smooth and soft the transition into the knuckles actually is, and particularly enjoy that point of their design. I think that making the lines sharper would make for a much more mechanical look, and detract from the flow of the piece.

I think the gauntlet looks astounding, Graham. Is it part of a pair already, or have you not made the second one yet?

-Gerhard

[Wulfgar]

Nice work. My only comment would be that from what I have heard historical examples had an articulating plate between the metacarple plate and the fingers. I don't have pics of an example of this but it may be something to look for when doing research in to the next pair.

[Andrew McKinnon]

The gauntlet is a beautiful piece of work.

I am very envious!

Well done mate.

[Mac]

Nice looking gauntlet Graham.

From what I can see in the pics they should work OK. (You have made a pair, n'est pas?)

Here are a couple of things I see that I would have have done differently. You might consider them on your next pair.
--The angle between the back of the hand and the knuckles looks a bit sharper than ones that one sees on original gauntlets. I think that a shallower angle would look better and be less trouble to make.
--The line line across the knuckles is perhaps a bit too flat. I think I am seeing more of a gentle curve in the originals. It's an ergonomic consideration. Grab a sword or a weapon haft, and then lay a straight edge across the backs of your knuckles. You will find that the second knuckle is the high point of a shallow curve. If the gauntlet shells reflect this, they will fit more closely and be more comfortable to wear.
--The rivets which attach the finger tip scales appear a bit far from the distal edge of the scales. These are a bit difficult to place. If they are too close, there is not enough room to sew the leather to the glove. If they are too far back, the terminal scale does not follow the finger tip when the fingers are wrapped around a weapon. I would have set them forward about another rivet diameter and a half or so.

These are pretty minor criticisms of a nice looking piece of armor. I hope you do not feel as though I have pissed in your weetabix.

Mac

[Mac]

Nice work. My only comment would be that from what I have heard historical examples had an articulating plate between the metacarple plate and the fingers. I don't have pics of an example of this but it may be something to look for when doing research in to the next pair.

Wulfgar,

His finger leathers are attached to an internal mitten lame. You can tell this by the presence of a rivet just inside the brass borders on both the medial (pointer finger) and lateral (pinky finger) sides of the gauntlet. This lame does not have to be visible to do its job.

Mac

[Frederich Von Teufel]

Looking at the piece again I see you drew your inspration more from the Churburg peice rather than the Wallace. Both extent peices are similar in handpeice construction, having a softly arched metacarpal (laterally to the wrist as Mac points out) while also having a rounded transition into the knuckles; an angle of perhaps 20 degrees. From personal experience I have found that it is comfortable for SCA combat to have a slightly sharper transition at the knuckles and I think that your design decision will work just fine. I would be concerned on the depth of curve of the thumb scales if this is intended as a "working" peice, but then the safety of thumbs always concerns me.

I do agree that the edges on the originals are currently very soft, though it's difficult to say with assurity just how crisp they were when new-made. It seems unlikely that the Churburg peices were ever quite as crisp as Graham's work; the Churburg peice (S12 I think it was?) has hardly any 'pointy-ness' in the knuckles at all. It would be lovely to know what the original fingers looked like.

Graham, if you do get a chance to get a better photo of the detail of your brass work cuff, I'd love to see your interpretation of the original. It's a shame it's so hard to make out in the first two photos.


Frederich

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi Graham, Reeeel nice gaunt there for sure. Hammer work looks great. Id like to see more pics from different angles if you get time. I like the way the rider plate is hidden out of sight too. Keep up the great work.

Take care

Pitbull

[The Iron Dwarf]

great work
wish I could do things like that

[Graham Ashford]

Hello folks

Thanks for the feedback and kind comments.

About the closeness between this piece and the churburg examples, we didn't really work to create an exact copy/replica of the piece. The lesson for me was to learn the way that Dave made the pieces and then allow me to turn that to whatever I want to use it in my own work later, so decorative work, while similar to some originals was more an exercise in completing the gauntlets to a nice looking finish rather than simply leaving them half done. I intend to try and make some like the rusted out version found in the Leeds Royal armoury later in the year which are a lot gentler around the knuckles than these, but by learning the pointed version of construction I can do the subtler lines now with confidence (well some confidence, but we'll see how that pans out later ).

Mac, don't worry my weetabix were just fine and I appreciate your feedback. I agree about the curve needed across the knuckles, the flatness was my fault as I was learning to create the knuckles I didn't concentrate enough on the curve, there is one in these but not as much as Dave would have liked.

I managed to make the little finger a bit too big as well, so I am hopeful that I will be able to alter that myself without having to take the thing apart.

There is a rider plate under the knuckles that the fingers are attached to, its a lot smaller than I would have imagined and not visible front the outside at all, a look that I didn't like before but think it looks quite nice now.

The second one is only 70% complete and will be finished over the next couple of weeks as work load allows.

Once again thanks all and I appreciate the nice comments and the critique alike.

Kindest regards

Graham

[Otto von Teich]

Fantastic! Well done.

[Graham Ashford]

Hello folks

As promised a couple of pictures of the finished pair.

I have made some notes from some of the comments above and will have an experiment as I have a couple more pairs to make lined up, but only after I have experimented on a pair for myself with the above comments involved. So my sincere thanks for them.

I am 85% happy with the second one I completed on my own, but to echo the training post I did a little while back I would be a number of years in the waiting to create something like this had it not been for the training, I really would encourage folk to seek out training even if its just an occasional few hours with someone more skilled, it can make all the difference in the world to your work and frustration levels.





Kindest regards

Graham

[Halberds]

I like em, thanks for sharing.

Hal

[Otto von Teich]

Well done!

[Wulfgar]

Wulfgar,

His finger leathers are attached to an internal mitten lame. You can tell this by the presence of a rivet just inside the brass borders on both the medial (pointer finger) and lateral (pinky finger) sides of the gauntlet. This lame does not have to be visible to do its job.

Mac

Thanks for pointing that out Mac, I missed it completely in my origional viewing.

[Frederich Von Teufel]

Graham, congratulations on completing the peice, they are something that you should deservedly feel proud of. Were I to be shown them without any introduction, I would not consider them to be apprentice level work.

One of the best tests I can recommend is simply wearing them while manipulating a real weapon. You'll immediately feel where there are issues in sizing or in the pattern. Locations that don't move smoothly or well, places that pinch or hurt are the best review of your work. A good peice sometimes disappears on your hands and you almost forget you are wearing them.


Frederich

[Mad Matt]

First I think they look fantastic.

I think what Mac may have been mentioning about the knuckle angle might also have something to do with the depth of them. Most of the originals and effigies I've seen are only about half as deep.

Awesome gauntlets.