Guys,
Got a new one. We have a new fighter in our shire. She is the shortest fighter I have ever worked with. She is probably four foot ten or eleven. She was the first person at practice today, and I was the second. I walked right past her thinking she was a boy in his young teens.
This obviously makes a little bit of a difference.
Physical strength is not a big problem, I think. We stole her from a live steel group when she came to college. She can do (what I call) an overhead Tallhoffer Smash with considerable force. She can already throw a telling blow, if she is able to get the right angle at least.
She's a lefty, and she does not have the problem I call "tight hips" that gets in some new folk's way.
Absolutely none of the loaner gear fits her. Her old group kept her old gear when she moved, but it may not be a problem for her to get her hands on it. It cannot fit too many people.
All my fancy over the top shots are useless.
Are there any very short fighters on the archive?
Has anyone worked with a fighter this short before?
Are there any "big sticks" under five feet tall in the society that I might get in touch with?
Is there anything special I should know? Is ther anything I haven't thought of?
YIS
freiman
Very Short Fighters
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freiman the minstrel
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sarnac
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well...my first man at arms was short....she was about 4'11"...maybe 5 foot.
I taught her "A frame" which gave her a good combonation of upper body and head protection.
I also taught her how to throw a quick, powerful, accurate leg shot...both onside and off side... without exposing her head...so she could chop her opponents down to size.....AND I taught her to throw a nasty thumb lead so she could "scoop" her shots under the bottom edge of her opponents shields.
all those things worked well for her.
[This message has been edited by sarnac (edited 04-20-2003).]
I taught her "A frame" which gave her a good combonation of upper body and head protection.
I also taught her how to throw a quick, powerful, accurate leg shot...both onside and off side... without exposing her head...so she could chop her opponents down to size.....AND I taught her to throw a nasty thumb lead so she could "scoop" her shots under the bottom edge of her opponents shields.
all those things worked well for her.
[This message has been edited by sarnac (edited 04-20-2003).]
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LR of E
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There was a knight out in Outlands?/Atenveldt? They called Little Dave. He was around five foot or so and a really good fighter.
Sir Ariel of Calontir OL,OP is a hell of a fun fight.
Lucia ?? squired to Sir Gunther Van Der Aachen is fury with a glaive. She is in England now.
I Know these are just names but people local to them might be able to help more.
Sir Ariel of Calontir OL,OP is a hell of a fun fight.
Lucia ?? squired to Sir Gunther Van Der Aachen is fury with a glaive. She is in England now.
I Know these are just names but people local to them might be able to help more.
Um, short fighters are so usual in Avalon that we have a special selection of small-sized loaner armour, just for them. Let's put it like this: When I made the legs for them, I used the elbow cop pattern from the archive without changing the size.
Lord Fox, the smallest of our number, has a waist that is slightly smaller in diameter than Lord Matthew's -- the tallests -- thigh.
One suggestion for teaching small fighters. In the beginning, they often have the bad habit of fighting in the tall guy's range. Convince them that, no matter how intimidating the guy is, they _must_ get within their own range, or ultimately they will lose.
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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
Lord Fox, the smallest of our number, has a waist that is slightly smaller in diameter than Lord Matthew's -- the tallests -- thigh.
One suggestion for teaching small fighters. In the beginning, they often have the bad habit of fighting in the tall guy's range. Convince them that, no matter how intimidating the guy is, they _must_ get within their own range, or ultimately they will lose.
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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
Well, i'm not totally sure what is and isn't legal in the SCA as i've not fought yet. What I would recommend FOR her is something that my friend Adam does (though i'd guess that it wouldn't be allowed in SCA. But, just in case i'm wrong in my assumption...) Put her in leather and teach her to tumble. Adam is about 5 foot and 110lbs max. He has taken Taekwondo for the better part of a decade and is also involved in Capoeria and breakdancing. What he lacks in size and strength he more than makes up for in movement. He derives power from hip rotation and can dodge, somersault and roll up to his feet behind an opponent landing a killing blow faster than we can usually turn around. I'm sure there's problems here with either ground contact or unchivelrously attacking an opponant from behind... but in practical combat it is frighteningly effective. He moves like a simian on speed... hence his nickname "Monkey."
--Vade
--Vade
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adamstjohn
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Freiman,
Cool of you to be thinking about this already.
M'Lady Joanne (the lady in question) is a good bit smaller than 5 feet, I would say. I would put her about 4 foot 6.
She's considerably shorter than Sir Ariel, for example.
Just to get things in perspective.
Adam
/aethstan /sca drachenwald
PS I have some steel arms that might fit her as legs....
Cool of you to be thinking about this already.
M'Lady Joanne (the lady in question) is a good bit smaller than 5 feet, I would say. I would put her about 4 foot 6.
She's considerably shorter than Sir Ariel, for example.
Just to get things in perspective.
Adam
/aethstan /sca drachenwald
PS I have some steel arms that might fit her as legs....
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Sixtus_Goetz
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by LR of E:
[B]Lucia ?? squired to Sir Gunther Van Der Aachen is fury with a glaive.[B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lady Lucia is very much fun to fight, both S & B and glaive. Perty damn good with Glaive she is.
Saranac Goetz
[B]Lucia ?? squired to Sir Gunther Van Der Aachen is fury with a glaive.[B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lady Lucia is very much fun to fight, both S & B and glaive. Perty damn good with Glaive she is.
Saranac Goetz
Regarding the tumbling while fighting:
I raised that issue a few months ago on the old recreation forum. Here was the consensus:
Where I to do a roll of somesort, the majority of my opponents are going to assume that at some point during that roll I was "helpless on the ground." Due to my Judo training, I'm far from defenseless or helpless on the ground. But that doesn't matter. My opponent think's I'm helpless, and if I attack while they are subsequently disengaging... then I am taking advantage of my opponent's chivalry, which is a no-no in SCA.
I raised that issue a few months ago on the old recreation forum. Here was the consensus:
Where I to do a roll of somesort, the majority of my opponents are going to assume that at some point during that roll I was "helpless on the ground." Due to my Judo training, I'm far from defenseless or helpless on the ground. But that doesn't matter. My opponent think's I'm helpless, and if I attack while they are subsequently disengaging... then I am taking advantage of my opponent's chivalry, which is a no-no in SCA.
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dukelogan
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tumbling looks good in movies but not really practical in the sport of sca fighting (or any other fighting for that matter). besides, if you do against a skilled opponent you are more likely to get pasted as you start your roll. much like the guys that do that little spinning thingy attempting to hit you on your sword side (assuming both fighters are right handed). the look on their faces is priceless when you blast them on their way through.
but i would agree that many fighters would simply back off to disengage thinking there was some sort of medical condition or food reaction. 8^)
regards
logan
but i would agree that many fighters would simply back off to disengage thinking there was some sort of medical condition or food reaction. 8^)
regards
logan
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freiman the minstrel
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Thanks Adam. I don't know how to do this one, so I thought I would ask the largest group of Knowlegable fighters I could get to.
OK, so the ideas so far are,
Get into HER range. This may allow her an advantage, as taller fighters often use longer swords to maximise that reach advantage.
Learn to throw very fast and accurate leg shots. This gets the opponent on the same height level as the lady in question, but with the opponent having a mobility disadvantage.
Commit J-shots and hooks under her opponents sheilds into muscle memory. This lady CAN use the space under an opponent's shield to her advantage. I have never been able to do that.
Lose herself behind the opponents sheild. This is an excellent idea, as she pretty much disappears behind my 24" round, when I am holding it.
Sarnac, I am unsure of what an "A-frame" is. How can I explain it to her?
And what's a nasty thumb lead?
I think that if we approach the training from the right angle, we can minimise the disadvantage the height thing makes. Most fighters are not used to fighting an opponent this size, and I expect that she is already used to dealing with people larger than her. They might also miss the fact that she's a leftie. Keeping her sword behind her sheild before engagement might be a good idea.
I expect that movement will be a key factor. She covers less than half the ground I do with a single step. She is effectivly going to have to move twice as fast as her opponents, just to keep up. I still don't know a single good movement drill. If you have one, I would love to learn it.
I also expect that it will be important for her to hit on the heavy side of the guage.
We're going to have to do something to keep her opponents from being able to come over the top of her sheild at will.
What sword length do you reccomend? I intellectually know that a slightly longer sword will help to compensate for the height thing, but for some reason, my "emotional side" really favors a semi-spatha or a gladius. I have learned to respect that little voice.
She has to authorize sword and board, so I would like to concentrate on that for now.
Keep those ideas rolling in folks! This one is tough.
f
OK, so the ideas so far are,
Get into HER range. This may allow her an advantage, as taller fighters often use longer swords to maximise that reach advantage.
Learn to throw very fast and accurate leg shots. This gets the opponent on the same height level as the lady in question, but with the opponent having a mobility disadvantage.
Commit J-shots and hooks under her opponents sheilds into muscle memory. This lady CAN use the space under an opponent's shield to her advantage. I have never been able to do that.
Lose herself behind the opponents sheild. This is an excellent idea, as she pretty much disappears behind my 24" round, when I am holding it.
Sarnac, I am unsure of what an "A-frame" is. How can I explain it to her?
And what's a nasty thumb lead?
I think that if we approach the training from the right angle, we can minimise the disadvantage the height thing makes. Most fighters are not used to fighting an opponent this size, and I expect that she is already used to dealing with people larger than her. They might also miss the fact that she's a leftie. Keeping her sword behind her sheild before engagement might be a good idea.
I expect that movement will be a key factor. She covers less than half the ground I do with a single step. She is effectivly going to have to move twice as fast as her opponents, just to keep up. I still don't know a single good movement drill. If you have one, I would love to learn it.
I also expect that it will be important for her to hit on the heavy side of the guage.
We're going to have to do something to keep her opponents from being able to come over the top of her sheild at will.
What sword length do you reccomend? I intellectually know that a slightly longer sword will help to compensate for the height thing, but for some reason, my "emotional side" really favors a semi-spatha or a gladius. I have learned to respect that little voice.
She has to authorize sword and board, so I would like to concentrate on that for now.
Keep those ideas rolling in folks! This one is tough.
f
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sarnac
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thumb leads are shots that start out as a regular flat snap but then the hands rolls over sharply at the last minute striking the opponent with the back edge of the blade and changing the orientation of the blade itself.
its like throwing a VERY tight, fast wrap shot...
"A frame" defense is a type of sword and shield position.
the sword and shield create an elongated "A"
in the on guard position.
it is good for shorter fighters because the upper body and head protection is very good, while still allowing for offensive capabilities.
Its easier to show than explain....and with a little practice, is very effective.
its like throwing a VERY tight, fast wrap shot...
"A frame" defense is a type of sword and shield position.
the sword and shield create an elongated "A"
in the on guard position.
it is good for shorter fighters because the upper body and head protection is very good, while still allowing for offensive capabilities.
Its easier to show than explain....and with a little practice, is very effective.
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FrauHirsch
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I'm 5'2". One of the things a small fighter will encounter is even if the shot is a hard shot, some people will assume a shot from her is automatically light because they are small, and it will be true that she will never have the body mass or torque that a tall/big fighter has, so her max out will be less. So never "be easy" on her. Force her to have perfect form at all times, to keep the power up for all shots and always be honest in practices with her if her blows lighten up during a fight.
Getting good with a thrusting tip is helpful and provides an option for getting into small spots due to lack of angles, also it does help in the case of individuals that have a very high calibration level. People don't argue much with a thrust to the face or one to the adams apple. Having a thrusty is sometimes best after she's legged an opponent. Sometimes I change weapons from regular sword to shortsword then.
I would recommend about a 28" overall length or so including thrusting tip, but play with it. Mine is a chunk of rattan that goes from 1.5 to 2" at the end, but shaved down on the sides. Much shorter, or too light and it won't carry enough "umph".
Thrust accuracy - put a tennis ball on a bungie...
Teach her shield hooks to open up for slot shots. Teach her some good body and arm fakes for leg shots. Teach her the overhead "scorpion" shot. Have her work on throwing flat shots with her arm fully extended up.
I learned to fight literally inside the shield of an opponent with a big shield. I used to go in, hook an elbow on a big shield to open it up and move inside.
Aggressively timing a close is important, but she does need to fight inside the range of the opponent, and they WILL run (so maneuver them into a corner of the field so they have to stop or turn out of it.)
Default rest position of the sword is best back and high when she has closed. This allows most shots, but also will help protect her head from overhead shots and wraps. When she is out of range and entering range, the sword is more to the front until in wrap or overhead range of the opponent.
Especially work on getting her to have an excellent wrap at all angles and encourage all the different types of wraps. They can be lefty's bread and butter.
-J
[This message has been edited by FrauHirsch (edited 04-21-2003).]
Getting good with a thrusting tip is helpful and provides an option for getting into small spots due to lack of angles, also it does help in the case of individuals that have a very high calibration level. People don't argue much with a thrust to the face or one to the adams apple. Having a thrusty is sometimes best after she's legged an opponent. Sometimes I change weapons from regular sword to shortsword then.
I would recommend about a 28" overall length or so including thrusting tip, but play with it. Mine is a chunk of rattan that goes from 1.5 to 2" at the end, but shaved down on the sides. Much shorter, or too light and it won't carry enough "umph".
Thrust accuracy - put a tennis ball on a bungie...
Teach her shield hooks to open up for slot shots. Teach her some good body and arm fakes for leg shots. Teach her the overhead "scorpion" shot. Have her work on throwing flat shots with her arm fully extended up.
I learned to fight literally inside the shield of an opponent with a big shield. I used to go in, hook an elbow on a big shield to open it up and move inside.
Aggressively timing a close is important, but she does need to fight inside the range of the opponent, and they WILL run (so maneuver them into a corner of the field so they have to stop or turn out of it.)
Default rest position of the sword is best back and high when she has closed. This allows most shots, but also will help protect her head from overhead shots and wraps. When she is out of range and entering range, the sword is more to the front until in wrap or overhead range of the opponent.
Especially work on getting her to have an excellent wrap at all angles and encourage all the different types of wraps. They can be lefty's bread and butter.
-J
[This message has been edited by FrauHirsch (edited 04-21-2003).]
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Raibeart Lok De la Haye
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A ways back I authorized against a very short fighter (less than 5 feet tall) who looked almost exactly like a Tolken dwarf (really!).
I thought, I'm 5'11" and really rather strong...so I'll take it easy on him....
...it turned out to be like fighting a ping-pong ball in a wind-tunnel. He was EVERYWHERE but where my sword was. It was very impressive.
-Aaron
I thought, I'm 5'11" and really rather strong...so I'll take it easy on him....
...it turned out to be like fighting a ping-pong ball in a wind-tunnel. He was EVERYWHERE but where my sword was. It was very impressive.
-Aaron
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freiman the minstrel
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Thank you all.
There's a lot I don't understand.
from Frau Hirsch
"I'm 5'2". One of the things a small fighter will encounter is even if the shot is a hard shot, some people will assume a shot from her is automatically light because they are small, and it will be true that she will never have the body mass or torque that a tall/big fighter has, so her max out will be less."
Yeah, I figured that. I am running into a problem in my head. A "sword forward ready position" (Or Kamei) will protect her from the "Over the top" shot. This will steal her power. A "Bellatrix style, sword back, Kamai" will allow her much more power, which she will probably need (in spades). But that doesn't help if every opponent just slips a quick slapper over her sheild and smack her on the faceplate.
You can't compromise on this one. One or the other, but you can't have both.
More frau Hirsch,
"Getting good with a thrusting tip is helpful and provides an option for getting into small spots due to lack of angles, also it does help in the case of individuals that have a very high calibration level. People don't argue much with a thrust to the face or one to the adams apple. Having a thrusty is sometimes best after she's legged an opponent. Sometimes I change weapons from regular sword to shortsword then."
I thought of this too, but never as well as you have, the adam's apple idea is a little scary, but you are correct. I don't want to start her on a thrusting tip on day one in armour. Too many fighters tell me that the ease of thrusting kind of crimped their other skills. How far along in her training would YOU suggest I add one? Maybe if we made her two swords to practice with?
Even more Frau Hirsch,
"Aggressively timing a close is important, but she does need to fight inside the range of the opponent, and they WILL run (so maneuver them into a corner of the field so they have to stop or turn out of it.)"
I don't understand the "agressive timing" part, and I expect it's pretty important.
As for running, I had an idea. When I did Karate, there was a nearby school that used to make it a habit of stepping on the leading toes of opponents. This prevented rapid retreats. We didn't do it, because it seemed "cheesy", and besides, our Sensei forbade it. Is it legal? Would it be considered unchivalrous?
and from Sarnac
""A frame" defense is a type of sword and shield position.
the sword and shield create an elongated "A"
in the on guard position.
it is good for shorter fighters because the upper body and head protection is very good, while still allowing for offensive capabilities.
Its easier to show than explain....and with a little practice, is very effective."
I am still not getting this, and this may be the answer to the "front sick/back stick" problem. Are both the arms extended and raised? This would put the shield and the sword in the a position with all the characteristics you describe, without tabling the sword.
But that position robs her of power. I expect I have got the idea wrong.
I still need some way to help her move very, very fast, and I still don't know any good movement drills. We have some excellent fencers in the shire, and I may tap them for help on this one.
I would rather look like I know what I'm doing, though. I see no logical reason that heavy fighters nessessarily have to move more ponderously than fencers.
I also really want to do a good job.
Thanks,
freiman the minstrel
There's a lot I don't understand.
from Frau Hirsch
"I'm 5'2". One of the things a small fighter will encounter is even if the shot is a hard shot, some people will assume a shot from her is automatically light because they are small, and it will be true that she will never have the body mass or torque that a tall/big fighter has, so her max out will be less."
Yeah, I figured that. I am running into a problem in my head. A "sword forward ready position" (Or Kamei) will protect her from the "Over the top" shot. This will steal her power. A "Bellatrix style, sword back, Kamai" will allow her much more power, which she will probably need (in spades). But that doesn't help if every opponent just slips a quick slapper over her sheild and smack her on the faceplate.
You can't compromise on this one. One or the other, but you can't have both.
More frau Hirsch,
"Getting good with a thrusting tip is helpful and provides an option for getting into small spots due to lack of angles, also it does help in the case of individuals that have a very high calibration level. People don't argue much with a thrust to the face or one to the adams apple. Having a thrusty is sometimes best after she's legged an opponent. Sometimes I change weapons from regular sword to shortsword then."
I thought of this too, but never as well as you have, the adam's apple idea is a little scary, but you are correct. I don't want to start her on a thrusting tip on day one in armour. Too many fighters tell me that the ease of thrusting kind of crimped their other skills. How far along in her training would YOU suggest I add one? Maybe if we made her two swords to practice with?
Even more Frau Hirsch,
"Aggressively timing a close is important, but she does need to fight inside the range of the opponent, and they WILL run (so maneuver them into a corner of the field so they have to stop or turn out of it.)"
I don't understand the "agressive timing" part, and I expect it's pretty important.
As for running, I had an idea. When I did Karate, there was a nearby school that used to make it a habit of stepping on the leading toes of opponents. This prevented rapid retreats. We didn't do it, because it seemed "cheesy", and besides, our Sensei forbade it. Is it legal? Would it be considered unchivalrous?
and from Sarnac
""A frame" defense is a type of sword and shield position.
the sword and shield create an elongated "A"
in the on guard position.
it is good for shorter fighters because the upper body and head protection is very good, while still allowing for offensive capabilities.
Its easier to show than explain....and with a little practice, is very effective."
I am still not getting this, and this may be the answer to the "front sick/back stick" problem. Are both the arms extended and raised? This would put the shield and the sword in the a position with all the characteristics you describe, without tabling the sword.
But that position robs her of power. I expect I have got the idea wrong.
I still need some way to help her move very, very fast, and I still don't know any good movement drills. We have some excellent fencers in the shire, and I may tap them for help on this one.
I would rather look like I know what I'm doing, though. I see no logical reason that heavy fighters nessessarily have to move more ponderously than fencers.
I also really want to do a good job.
Thanks,
freiman the minstrel
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Guest
Wouldn't stepping on an opponents toes be considered grappling?
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Matthew Broadway
Founder of The Armour Archive
(SCA: Alvered of Lincolnshire)
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Matthew Broadway
Founder of The Armour Archive
(SCA: Alvered of Lincolnshire)
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sarnac
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Ok...she a lefty too....
right...
I wish I could get to your practice because my style is probably perfect for her.
I am a left handed, short (5'9") fighter.
power is generated by the entire body motion.... so her stance and defenseive position shouldnt rob her of any power if her body mecahnics are correct.
is she fighting "iron rose" style (sword foot forward)or regular stance (shield foot forward)?
also what kind of shield is she fighting with? ...heater... round..strapped... center boss..this makes a difference.
Also she is going to have to remeber that every opening she has, a right handed fighter has the same openings, as they are sword side to sword side....exploit them.
I will try to find some pictures of people in a good A frame, and if I cant...I will take some at practice this weekend...ok?
[This message has been edited by sarnac (edited 04-21-2003).]
right...
I wish I could get to your practice because my style is probably perfect for her.
I am a left handed, short (5'9") fighter.
power is generated by the entire body motion.... so her stance and defenseive position shouldnt rob her of any power if her body mecahnics are correct.
is she fighting "iron rose" style (sword foot forward)or regular stance (shield foot forward)?
also what kind of shield is she fighting with? ...heater... round..strapped... center boss..this makes a difference.
Also she is going to have to remeber that every opening she has, a right handed fighter has the same openings, as they are sword side to sword side....exploit them.
I will try to find some pictures of people in a good A frame, and if I cant...I will take some at practice this weekend...ok?
[This message has been edited by sarnac (edited 04-21-2003).]
for whatever it's worth I worked with a friends wife a few years back, she was quite short, but muscular (nurse)
her style evolved into covering like crazy while closing, and once into range gluing herself to the left hand corner of her opponents shield (assuming a right handed opponent), and dropping into a deeper crouch, while attacking inot the upper legs, and back.
This forced her opponent to heep circling to his own shield side, while dropping his guard in order to see where she was.
I am not sure how much help this would be for a left handed fighter
her style evolved into covering like crazy while closing, and once into range gluing herself to the left hand corner of her opponents shield (assuming a right handed opponent), and dropping into a deeper crouch, while attacking inot the upper legs, and back.
This forced her opponent to heep circling to his own shield side, while dropping his guard in order to see where she was.
I am not sure how much help this would be for a left handed fighter
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FrauHirsch
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by freiman the minstrel:
<B>There's a lot I don't understand.
from Frau Hirsch </B>
I am really busy today, but will try to add more answers to your questions tonight or tomorrow.
One important issue is that really short fighters must be able to throw solid blows with either foot forward because they can't stand there and gunfight in their opponents range. IMHO, I can and do throw solid blows with either leg, but my max power is with shield foot forward for a snap and taking a sword foot forward step for a wrap.
Typically I use a slightly more open stance than some men and that fixes the hip angle problem Tobi Beck mentions in the Armored Rose. Make sure she doesn't try to put her feet in line with the target, but if standing still with feet together facing front, move one foot back to 45 degrees only, no further or her hip angle will mess up her power level. Feet not too much farther apart than her shoulders. Feet solid, not spread apart.
I see a lot of people try to teach women to have one foot way in front of the other and spread far apart, so that when facing the opponent, one foot is almost straight behind the other. This is not good for a shorty who must be ready to move in any direction quickly.
Typically the very short fighter is going to have to keep advancing to their own range, which is inside the opponent's range. This usually makes the opponent try to turn out of it or run backwards because it is outside the opponent's comfort zone. But the very short fighter must be close so they can hit the opponent at all.
I time my engagement almost like a counterpunch. When fighting a counterpuncher, I may have to initiate the blow to cause a counterpunch to happen, then I need to advance to engage within my range as fast as possible and hopefully before the opponent has adjusted their targeted distance. This causes them to overshoot the second shot and then I throw blow combos meant to move their shield to create openings. Of course each blow of the combo is also meant to be a disabling or killing blow.
Meanwhile I struggle to maintain my optimal range and the opponent will struggle to retain their optimal range, which tends to cause the fight to move with the opponent moving backwards.
I have fought people who run backward as fast or faster than I can run forward. If I can, I'll pin them to the list field to make them stand still...
If the Marshal moves them back in, then the 3rd time, they can be called dead, so it behooves them to stand and fight or turn out of it rather than get pinned in a corner.
When I have more time I will try to read and answer each question more thoroughly if I can and give some pell drills too.
Juliana
<B>There's a lot I don't understand.
from Frau Hirsch </B>
I am really busy today, but will try to add more answers to your questions tonight or tomorrow.
One important issue is that really short fighters must be able to throw solid blows with either foot forward because they can't stand there and gunfight in their opponents range. IMHO, I can and do throw solid blows with either leg, but my max power is with shield foot forward for a snap and taking a sword foot forward step for a wrap.
Typically I use a slightly more open stance than some men and that fixes the hip angle problem Tobi Beck mentions in the Armored Rose. Make sure she doesn't try to put her feet in line with the target, but if standing still with feet together facing front, move one foot back to 45 degrees only, no further or her hip angle will mess up her power level. Feet not too much farther apart than her shoulders. Feet solid, not spread apart.
I see a lot of people try to teach women to have one foot way in front of the other and spread far apart, so that when facing the opponent, one foot is almost straight behind the other. This is not good for a shorty who must be ready to move in any direction quickly.
Typically the very short fighter is going to have to keep advancing to their own range, which is inside the opponent's range. This usually makes the opponent try to turn out of it or run backwards because it is outside the opponent's comfort zone. But the very short fighter must be close so they can hit the opponent at all.
I time my engagement almost like a counterpunch. When fighting a counterpuncher, I may have to initiate the blow to cause a counterpunch to happen, then I need to advance to engage within my range as fast as possible and hopefully before the opponent has adjusted their targeted distance. This causes them to overshoot the second shot and then I throw blow combos meant to move their shield to create openings. Of course each blow of the combo is also meant to be a disabling or killing blow.
Meanwhile I struggle to maintain my optimal range and the opponent will struggle to retain their optimal range, which tends to cause the fight to move with the opponent moving backwards.
I have fought people who run backward as fast or faster than I can run forward. If I can, I'll pin them to the list field to make them stand still...
If the Marshal moves them back in, then the 3rd time, they can be called dead, so it behooves them to stand and fight or turn out of it rather than get pinned in a corner.
When I have more time I will try to read and answer each question more thoroughly if I can and give some pell drills too.
Juliana
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FrauHirsch
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Originally posted by freiman the minstrel:
"sword forward ready position" (Or Kamei) will protect her from the "Over the top" shot. This will steal her power.
Try hilt high and back (like Belatrix), but put point forward and at a downward angle so point is slightly below the edge of the shield (but not resting on it), slightly crossing over in front to her right. She shouldn't loose power. The blade swings around over her head (which she'll have to learn how to do anyway because the flat snap has to be high.)
From this position, (hilt high and back), she can drop the blade back across the top of her head and even drop the point down behind her head to block wraps and overhead shots, and she should still be able to throw a hard blow from either of those positions too.
<B>Sometimes I change weapons from regular sword to shortsword then."
I thought of this too, but never as well as you have, the adam's apple idea is a little scary, but you are correct. I don't want to start her on a thrusting tip on day one in armour. Too many fighters tell me that the ease of thrusting kind of crimped their other skills. How far along in her training would YOU suggest I add one?</B>
Not day one, but after she's got the basics down ok. Maybe after a few months. Watch what her problems are.
Maybe if we made her two swords to practice with?
I wouldn't recommend two swords. She has too much area to block while she's trying to get good angles on her opponent. The angles for a short person to get around a shield are difficult. You need to make openings using set up combos that creatively change of course. Not to mention that a fighter needs to be strong and have aggressive sword blocking to be a good two sword fighter. From my personal perspective, I feel like I need more hand/grip and arm strength than I have to be decent at two swords and I am pretty strong. My husband fights two sword so I am fairly familiar with it. She needs to get really good at whatever style of shield she is using. Tall people have much better angles on a short person, we have to be extra good at defense. What style shield? Heater? Round? ???
<B>"Aggressively timing a close is important, but she does need to fight inside the range of the opponent, and they WILL run (so maneuver them into a corner of the field so they have to stop or turn out of it.)"
I don't understand the "agressive timing" part, and I expect it's pretty important.</B>
Its about timing when she is going to close on her opponent and get into her range. She needs to go from out of range to her range aggressively and fast. I tried to explain it in the previous post... instead of "counter punching", I try to close just after a blow is thrown and do it fast. And keep closing because the opponent will keep moving backwards. This is why a short fighter must throw off both feet forward as they are moving forward.
As for running, I had an idea. When I did Karate, there was a nearby school that used to make it a habit of stepping on the leading toes of opponents. This prevented rapid retreats. We didn't do it, because it seemed "cheesy", and besides, our Sensei forbade it. Is it legal? Would it be considered unchivalrous?
It is technically illegal to do on purpose, and would be considered unchivalrous. She may not have enough body weight for it to work well in any case. Its easy for someone stronger to throw you off balance just due to uneven footing.
Pell drill for throwing off both feet:
Teach her a 2 blow combo - flat snap and cross shot are good to start. Then have her sidestep around a pell throwing blows continously. Teach her not to cross her feet, Teach her to step solidly and throw the shots on the downstep and time the blows with her feet. Then change direction. Make her change beats (so she isn't always throwing the same blow with the same foot).
Have her start out of range. Teach her to throw blows as she walks forward as soon as she is in range, and keep going until she is 6" from the pell, then move back out. She needs to understand range extremely well and what blows she can throw when to the most effectiveness. She needs to be able to throw blows "up close and personal".
Sometimes she will fight someone who will let her close for a few blows and then expect to back out and rest. Teach her not to let them lead the dance. It is to her advantage to remain in her range.
Work her with some basic set up combos - snap - cross - leg - cross - wrap, etc. Show her how to mix them up, or set up a pattern and change it to lull the opponent into an opening.
I find that rising snaps aren't good fakes for me because my arm isnt' high enough so the angles just tend not to work well, but a good body or shoulder fake to a leg shot works more often than I would expect.
I am no great shakes as tourney fighter nowadays, (being old and out of shape), but when I was in my prime I did ok, regularly 4th to 6th round, and in wars I've always done very well, so there is definitely hope for her, but there is no easy path. Its a lot of work, but its lots of fun too. I hit a pell every night for the first year or so and it made an enormous difference.
Sounds like she's got drive. Thats half the battle!
I've started a young lady who's 5'3" at pell work the last few weeks and she is going to be a drop dead gorgeous killer Her quick wrap is already nasty.
Good luck and feel free to ask for more clarification, perhaps I can figure out other ways to describe my answers.
Juliana
[This message has been edited by FrauHirsch (edited 04-23-2003).]
"sword forward ready position" (Or Kamei) will protect her from the "Over the top" shot. This will steal her power.
Try hilt high and back (like Belatrix), but put point forward and at a downward angle so point is slightly below the edge of the shield (but not resting on it), slightly crossing over in front to her right. She shouldn't loose power. The blade swings around over her head (which she'll have to learn how to do anyway because the flat snap has to be high.)
From this position, (hilt high and back), she can drop the blade back across the top of her head and even drop the point down behind her head to block wraps and overhead shots, and she should still be able to throw a hard blow from either of those positions too.
<B>Sometimes I change weapons from regular sword to shortsword then."
I thought of this too, but never as well as you have, the adam's apple idea is a little scary, but you are correct. I don't want to start her on a thrusting tip on day one in armour. Too many fighters tell me that the ease of thrusting kind of crimped their other skills. How far along in her training would YOU suggest I add one?</B>
Not day one, but after she's got the basics down ok. Maybe after a few months. Watch what her problems are.
Maybe if we made her two swords to practice with?
I wouldn't recommend two swords. She has too much area to block while she's trying to get good angles on her opponent. The angles for a short person to get around a shield are difficult. You need to make openings using set up combos that creatively change of course.
Not to mention that a fighter needs to be strong and have aggressive sword blocking to be a good two sword fighter. From my personal perspective, I feel like I need more hand/grip and arm strength than I have to be decent at two swords and I am pretty strong. My husband fights two sword so I am fairly familiar with it. She needs to get really good at whatever style of shield she is using. Tall people have much better angles on a short person, we have to be extra good at defense. What style shield? Heater? Round? ???<B>"Aggressively timing a close is important, but she does need to fight inside the range of the opponent, and they WILL run (so maneuver them into a corner of the field so they have to stop or turn out of it.)"
I don't understand the "agressive timing" part, and I expect it's pretty important.</B>
Its about timing when she is going to close on her opponent and get into her range. She needs to go from out of range to her range aggressively and fast. I tried to explain it in the previous post... instead of "counter punching", I try to close just after a blow is thrown and do it fast. And keep closing because the opponent will keep moving backwards. This is why a short fighter must throw off both feet forward as they are moving forward.
As for running, I had an idea. When I did Karate, there was a nearby school that used to make it a habit of stepping on the leading toes of opponents. This prevented rapid retreats. We didn't do it, because it seemed "cheesy", and besides, our Sensei forbade it. Is it legal? Would it be considered unchivalrous?
It is technically illegal to do on purpose, and would be considered unchivalrous. She may not have enough body weight for it to work well in any case. Its easy for someone stronger to throw you off balance just due to uneven footing.
Pell drill for throwing off both feet:
Teach her a 2 blow combo - flat snap and cross shot are good to start. Then have her sidestep around a pell throwing blows continously. Teach her not to cross her feet, Teach her to step solidly and throw the shots on the downstep and time the blows with her feet. Then change direction. Make her change beats (so she isn't always throwing the same blow with the same foot).
Have her start out of range. Teach her to throw blows as she walks forward as soon as she is in range, and keep going until she is 6" from the pell, then move back out. She needs to understand range extremely well and what blows she can throw when to the most effectiveness. She needs to be able to throw blows "up close and personal".
Sometimes she will fight someone who will let her close for a few blows and then expect to back out and rest. Teach her not to let them lead the dance. It is to her advantage to remain in her range.
Work her with some basic set up combos - snap - cross - leg - cross - wrap, etc. Show her how to mix them up, or set up a pattern and change it to lull the opponent into an opening.
I find that rising snaps aren't good fakes for me because my arm isnt' high enough so the angles just tend not to work well, but a good body or shoulder fake to a leg shot works more often than I would expect.
I am no great shakes as tourney fighter nowadays, (being old and out of shape), but when I was in my prime I did ok, regularly 4th to 6th round, and in wars I've always done very well, so there is definitely hope for her, but there is no easy path. Its a lot of work, but its lots of fun too. I hit a pell every night for the first year or so and it made an enormous difference.
Sounds like she's got drive. Thats half the battle!
I've started a young lady who's 5'3" at pell work the last few weeks and she is going to be a drop dead gorgeous killer
Her quick wrap is already nasty.Good luck and feel free to ask for more clarification, perhaps I can figure out other ways to describe my answers.
Juliana
[This message has been edited by FrauHirsch (edited 04-23-2003).]
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Richard Blackmoore
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- Location: Bay Shore, NY USA
With the recent ban on short, left handed fighters because of their tendancy to hit their opponents in the cup, this discussion no longer has any relevancy.
Seriously?
Talk to Vitus, he is short.
Also, if you like to thrust and are good at it, lefty's seem to do better at body thrusts than right handed fighters, probably because they have more opportunity to practice thrusting against opponents without shields on that side. Also practice throwing grasscutters (shots that start very low and rise) as righty's tend to not cover those as well on their sword side.
Practice getting into your effective range quickly so as to minimize the time your taller opponent has to take a 'free' shot at you.
Practice sword blocks for the back and top of your head so that you can use them to stop a much taller opponent's shots that can't conveniently be blocked with your shield, and practice quick counterpunching attacks that you make immediately upon completion of a successful block. For example, if your opponent clubs the top of your head, take the block on the sword and immediately fire a shot at his leg or body, it is hard for him to make the block quickly since your sword is already lower than his and should be moving already at the point where you make the block. Be sure to be ready to block with your shield when you do this.
Wear a really tall plume or thin crest. Tall fighters will spend a lot of time trying to hit this or accidentally hitting this instead of your head.
Try humour. Walk into the lists with a stepstool (period design preferred). When the lay on is called, walk up the the fighter, step up on the stool, then whack him in the head.
Seriously?
Talk to Vitus, he is short.
Also, if you like to thrust and are good at it, lefty's seem to do better at body thrusts than right handed fighters, probably because they have more opportunity to practice thrusting against opponents without shields on that side. Also practice throwing grasscutters (shots that start very low and rise) as righty's tend to not cover those as well on their sword side.
Practice getting into your effective range quickly so as to minimize the time your taller opponent has to take a 'free' shot at you.
Practice sword blocks for the back and top of your head so that you can use them to stop a much taller opponent's shots that can't conveniently be blocked with your shield, and practice quick counterpunching attacks that you make immediately upon completion of a successful block. For example, if your opponent clubs the top of your head, take the block on the sword and immediately fire a shot at his leg or body, it is hard for him to make the block quickly since your sword is already lower than his and should be moving already at the point where you make the block. Be sure to be ready to block with your shield when you do this.
Wear a really tall plume or thin crest. Tall fighters will spend a lot of time trying to hit this or accidentally hitting this instead of your head.
Try humour. Walk into the lists with a stepstool (period design preferred). When the lay on is called, walk up the the fighter, step up on the stool, then whack him in the head.
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Torum
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i have just returned from Rowany festival (biggest event in lochac) i saw the most amazing thing...... Sir Eaves ..... 5 ft max i swear .... in the middle of a sheild wall he dropped his boar spear and pulled a dagger from his ankle and started knifing people on the other side under thier shields , absolutly amazing!!!! he was awesome to watch... with his boar spear he was always jummping and shiffting his feet and bobbing up and down like a kung foo master...
.... but seriosly he was quite awe inspiring....
.... but seriosly he was quite awe inspiring....-
freiman the minstrel
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Thank you everyone who either posted or e-mailed me suggestions.
The lady is coming to her second fighter practice tomorrow (I hope) and I hope to be able to put some of these things into application.
I don't know if the first practice in armor is a good place to start learning combinations, or sheild presses, or thrusting. I know what I am going to be doing with her in the future, or at least I have some idea of how to proceed.
I think tomorrow we will be doing "this is how you throw a proper blow" and perhaps, if she is as ready for that as I think she is, then "these are some very basic footwork drills". The more I learn about this, the more I gravitate to "basics".
Some of you have given me confirmation of things I expected. Some of you have told me things that surprised me.
Thank you.
f
The lady is coming to her second fighter practice tomorrow (I hope) and I hope to be able to put some of these things into application.
I don't know if the first practice in armor is a good place to start learning combinations, or sheild presses, or thrusting. I know what I am going to be doing with her in the future, or at least I have some idea of how to proceed.
I think tomorrow we will be doing "this is how you throw a proper blow" and perhaps, if she is as ready for that as I think she is, then "these are some very basic footwork drills". The more I learn about this, the more I gravitate to "basics".
Some of you have given me confirmation of things I expected. Some of you have told me things that surprised me.
Thank you.
f
-
Richard Blackmoore
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My attitude is, if I post something in a public forum with hints, anybody is free to use them to help others. The only time I see people get annoyed, justifiably so, is if someone takes the time to write a very serious and scholarly piece and someone takes that piece, incorporates it into a formal presentation and claims that it is their own work without giving credit to the original poster. An infrequent occurance but it does happen.
Some training tips for thrusting:
Hang a heavy (iron/concrete/whatever) ball or object on a rope at just above hip level and practice thrusting it firmly with lots of power and control.
Hang a light object (tennis ball/baseball) on a rope and practice thrusting it repeatedly, including when it comes back at you.
Put tape X's on a pell or wall. Practice hitting them without looking at them. Have a spotter tell you if you are hitting them. If you look at the X too much, you may tend to do this when you fight and 'telegraph' your intended target.
Interpose a shield or shield facsimilie between yourself and part of the target/pell. Try to thrust around the shield.
Try to thrust coming off of another blow or faked blow. Too often people sit there and thrust from an obvious thrust position, so the opponent knows it is coming. For a lefty, through a rising shot (grasscutter is a good one) that turns instead into a body thrust part way through. Combine this with a lateral step to the left to clear the opponent's shield and help you avoid their countering blow.
Richard Blackmoore
East
Some training tips for thrusting:
Hang a heavy (iron/concrete/whatever) ball or object on a rope at just above hip level and practice thrusting it firmly with lots of power and control.
Hang a light object (tennis ball/baseball) on a rope and practice thrusting it repeatedly, including when it comes back at you.
Put tape X's on a pell or wall. Practice hitting them without looking at them. Have a spotter tell you if you are hitting them. If you look at the X too much, you may tend to do this when you fight and 'telegraph' your intended target.
Interpose a shield or shield facsimilie between yourself and part of the target/pell. Try to thrust around the shield.
Try to thrust coming off of another blow or faked blow. Too often people sit there and thrust from an obvious thrust position, so the opponent knows it is coming. For a lefty, through a rising shot (grasscutter is a good one) that turns instead into a body thrust part way through. Combine this with a lateral step to the left to clear the opponent's shield and help you avoid their countering blow.
Richard Blackmoore
East
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Elias mac Griogair
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[Q[UOTE]Originally posted by Richard Blackmoore:
Try humour. Walk into the lists with a stepstool (period design preferred). When the lay on is called, walk up the the fighter, step up on the stool, then whack him in the head.[/B][/QUOTE]
Frieman,
this would be perfect for her to do at Feast of Fools
also have you talked to C'pn Molly in Rauchenderberg yet? she should be able to give you good advice and might even have a kit that would fit this lady.
speaking from a lefty point of view wraps are your friend. also have her try the hanging pell and tennis ball techniques.
Elias
who really misses Drachenwald
Try humour. Walk into the lists with a stepstool (period design preferred). When the lay on is called, walk up the the fighter, step up on the stool, then whack him in the head.[/B][/QUOTE]
Frieman,
this would be perfect for her to do at Feast of Fools
also have you talked to C'pn Molly in Rauchenderberg yet? she should be able to give you good advice and might even have a kit that would fit this lady.
speaking from a lefty point of view wraps are your friend. also have her try the hanging pell and tennis ball techniques.
Elias
who really misses Drachenwald
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freiman the minstrel
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Elias,
That's a good idea, but any gear that would fit Molly would be way to big for the lady.
I give any permission nessessary for educational use of this material. I do not have any "jusrisdiction" to speak for any one else on thie archive, and for all I know the information on the archive is archive property anyway, even the stuff I post.
And Yes, Sarnac, I would love to have a link to your site. Is there more instructional information I could use there? Ny shire's fighters are working hard at not working stupid. It would be good if I could get any help possible.
f
[This message has been edited by freiman the minstrel (edited 04-27-2003).]
That's a good idea, but any gear that would fit Molly would be way to big for the lady.
I give any permission nessessary for educational use of this material. I do not have any "jusrisdiction" to speak for any one else on thie archive, and for all I know the information on the archive is archive property anyway, even the stuff I post.
And Yes, Sarnac, I would love to have a link to your site. Is there more instructional information I could use there? Ny shire's fighters are working hard at not working stupid. It would be good if I could get any help possible.
f
[This message has been edited by freiman the minstrel (edited 04-27-2003).]
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sarnac
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This is not my group...but I play with these guys every weekend...
http://www.legiodraconis.com
go to the "documents" section and there are training articles on melee and tourney fighting along with tons of other stuff.
My digital camera is on the fritz.....none of the pictures I took came out....so when I get some I will post them.
http://www.legiodraconis.com
go to the "documents" section and there are training articles on melee and tourney fighting along with tons of other stuff.
My digital camera is on the fritz.....none of the pictures I took came out....so when I get some I will post them.