defeating "the flinch" in new fighters

freiman the minstrel · Mon Jun 02, 2003 5:55 am

Guys,

I had an eye opening experience at practice yesterday.

We had a visiting shire of fighters come to visit, and they rolled over us. I was very proud of the techniques that my fighters threw, but they were bowled over by the other shire's sheer ferocity.

I want to make this clear. My fighters were doing what I consider to be better fighting, but the other guys were just plain more agressive. All the technique in the world is useless in the loser's waiting area.

I believe that this indicates a hole in my training program. I think that the guys were flinching in response to the agressive, hard charging opponents.

I believe that this lack is endemic across the shire, regardless of skill level.

If I can help them "beat the flinch" I will have given them a large leg up.

freiman

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 6:21 am

How does a medical examiner get used to looking at dead bodies? By looking at dead bodies.

How to you learn to overcome the "flinch"? By putting yourself and your fighters in situations where they will flinch. Aggressiveness is fine. Good even, when applied appropriately. It's another tool in the tool kit. It works well against some opponents, and not so well against others. Learn to use it, learn to deal with it.

Andrew Grey · Post by **Andrew Grey** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:15 am

Have they experienced a war like Pennsic, Lillies, Kingdom Crusades or Estrella yet?

I had the same problem when I started fighting, but my first Pennsic battle (field I think) put everything else into perspective.

Now I just don't get into the shield wall!

Seriously, though Pennsic (and subsequent wars) did break me of that flinch thing.

Andrew

[This message has been edited by Andrew Grey (edited 06-02-2003).]

Crystoll · Post by **Crystoll** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:55 am

Do 2 on 1 drills to help combat the flinch..
It will help them develop better footwork as they learn to maneuver around 2 opponents, and having double the number of weapons swinging at you forces you to do one of two things:
1) Become a turtle and die eventually.
2) Learn to move around and fight back.

If someone gets used to fighting 2 on 1, that person should have no problems facing an agressive single fighter.

Crystoll

william · Post by **william** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 9:56 am

Freiman,

Well, *who* were they? (just checking who will beat *us* up later this year ... ,) )

Cheers,
Will
*Alliance for Superior Horseradish

*

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* Noli fortius me ferire *

Ld. William of Llanwarne
Shire of Two Seas, Drachenwald, SCA

DrTuba · Post by **DrTuba** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:16 am

Inform your fighters to "unleash hell".

In all actuality, either you get beat on enough to realize that in battle agressiveness is like paint, in that it covers a multitude of sins... or you keep flinching.

I am of the opinion that if you "take" a charge, you might as well lie down when they get to you, as you have a better chance at slowing them as they climb over you. Even when holding a line, never passively let someone hammer into you. You've got a shield, they've got a shield, odds are nobody is going to perish when they collide. Teach your fighters the "duck and jack", how they lower themselves and deliver a blow to counter a charge.

If you shoot a cue ball at another on a table, the force of the cue will transfer to the ball it hits. If that ball is going the other way, what happens? They stop dead. If you are taking a charge, that's what you want. If you are commencing a charge, you still want to come in with a lower center than your opponent. Physics says he will move if you overcome his mass. You can't do that standing straight up.

While charging, also remember to still deliver the jack as you move into the line. In there perhaps is where you will find the cure to the flinch. You can't flinch while moving forward, so practice having your shields move into whatever is going to collide with them... pole, two-stick...whatever. Now we're not talking running over hapless bystanders or dagger guys or something. But move into contact, initiate it.

In battle you either control the fight or are controlled. You cannot win if you do not have this control. In a shield line, control is the guy who is sitting where he wants to be after the initial clash. (for me, prefferably on my feet while my opponent sags into his own poles)

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"Never mistake lack of talent for genius."

[This message has been edited by DrTuba (edited 06-02-2003).]

freiman the minstrel · Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:27 am

I believe that I have given the wrong impression. We did not do any melee fighting, just single sparring.

f

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:41 am

Is there a difference? Isn't singles fighting just a 1 on 1 melee?

Seriously, you need to face some agression to get rid of the fear/reaction to agression. Crystoll's 2 on 1 suggestion is a decent way to get them used to it. Nothing like fighing a well defended agressive 2 headed florentine fighter to get you used to being agressed.

DrTuba · Post by **DrTuba** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:49 am

The principle remains the same. You can't flinch moving forward. It's a confidence builder and teaches control of the fight.

I guess that's what I was getting at... whether your fighter likes to go shield-to-shield with his opponent or dance and play the range game, he should be controlling the fight and then he doesn't flinch.

A flinch is a reaction. If you flinch, your not taking action but reacting to your opponents, thus giving them control. Hammer it into their heads to take control of the fight and taking away their opponent's initiatives. If the opponent wants to play the "chase-me-I'm-faster-than-you" game, then move towards him, walking, never chasing, and force him to react to your range instead of picking his. If your opponent likes to turtle and snap around his shield, either roll over him or stay at a longer range and force him to move. Basically, you can take the opposite stance of your opponent without "reacting" to him, but rather forcing them into the game you wanna play. The shield "pulse" is just one way of establishing control.

Do drills that focus in control. Have one fighter take a particular style then have the other fighter establish control over the first by countering what the first fighter is doing with something that forces him out of it. It's a trick I learned from Sir Ivar at the TOC up here (and one of the best single lessons I've ever recieved).

Another tip... watch kendo films, especially of masters. 90% of their matches are positioning... maneuvering for the place they want to strike from. It's amazing how truly few shots they throw, but a lesson in control.

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"Never mistake lack of talent for genius."

Cedric · Post by **Cedric** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:02 am

I agree... 2 on 1 training is very important. Its not that hard to learn, but a very necessary skill.

Good thinking...

Aidan Cambel · Post by **Aidan Cambel** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 12:20 pm

I agree, to teach them to not be overwelmed by agression, you need to make them more accustomed to it. However I think there is one other means of doing this that hasn't been mentioned.

Train them to be the agressor. Now, it may not be their comfortable fighting zone, but it will teach them what the body mechanics of being aggresive is as opposed to being defensive.

When training them against aggression, be careful not to discourage them, and teach them how to turn the tables from being defensive to being aggresive. In one on one, thats the best way to gain control of the fight(IMO). So, they will need to know both techniques.

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How did the nobles become noble? They took it, by the tip of a sword.

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 12:41 pm

I just tell my new fighters that I want to see extreme violence. Seems to work well.

I'm not kidding.

They don't go berserk, but the words "extreme violence" get them to loosen up and remind them about the value of aggression.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 12:55 pm

I agree that it's good to teach them to be agressive themselves, and some will find that easier than others. But there will ALWAYS be someone more agressive. Nothing is funnier than seeing the "super agressive but somewhat inexperienced" guy run into a much MORE agressive force than he's ever encountered. They don't know what to do about it, often.

The final answer is "there is no substitute for experience."

Patrick · Post by **Patrick** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 1:06 pm

A few years ago, I learned a lesson along these lines. There was a squire visiting, along with 3 knights. The knights fought the way I expected people to fight. They sort of feel you out a little before they mow you down. Ken did not. He went from "ready" to "adrenaline rush" in about the time it took the marshal to say "lay on."

I never got a stick on him in the tourney. Pick up fights later, though, I had finally figured out what was going on. I managed to hit him. Once. By doing exactly what he was doing. Total instant commitment to attack.

I'm afraid this doesn't help much, but I do understand where you are coming from. Maybe you could drill your guys on ferocity. Whoever is the most agressive without being unsafe gets to wear the red scarf (for bloodthirstiness) for a week. The next week, everyone else tries to outdo him and take it away. I don't know, just thinking.

-Patrick

Sir Asoph · Post by **Sir Asoph** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:16 pm

Flinch drills..
You must be able to trust your helm/armor.
Start by throwing light shots to the helm and keeping your eyes open... Then move to light shots to the body/legs

Asoph

rameymj · Post by **rameymj** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 11:39 pm

How about setting a minumum number of blows; i.e. once you throw the first blow, you can't stop until you've thrown a minimum of 3 blows (or a hold is called). As they gain experience, increase the min number; 3 - 5 - 7 - 11 - 15 - 21.

Might also help build-up strength. Also, people fight as they practice.

If you try this please let me know what you think changes in their fighting styles. Is it good or bad?

Michael

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 12:17 am

There's a drill Sir Stephan uses at practices where two fighters go at it balls to the wall for up to five minutes, shots are called, but the fighting doesn't stop until someone steps back or time's up.
I try to impress upon all new fighters that aggression is key to SCA combat, in order to win, you have to throw blows. IMO, it's far better to go down swingin' than be caught out waiting for "the perfect shot"
Slainte,
Fearghus

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How long will we fight? We will fight until Hell freezes over; then we fight on the ice.
Fearghus' Homepage

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 2:11 am

DrTuba, both your posts were great. Our big war is at the end of this month, I'm going to keep that stuff in mind. Thank you.

~Wil

Lubeck · Post by **Lubeck** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 11:26 am

In one of my first practice sessions Sir Ephriam called out the shots. Head, head, leg, leg. Once he called out the leg and whacked me in the head. I stood dumfounded for a second, and then he asked if he had hurt me. I responded "No, it just sounded loud". He asked if I needed to flinch from loud noises, and I replied no. It was likely one of the best ways to get me to trust my equipment, and not fear correct attitude or posture out of fear of being hit. I remember loud doesn't hurt.

freiman the minstrel · Wed Jun 04, 2003 4:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by william:
Freiman,

Well, *who* were they? (just checking who will beat *us* up later this year ... ,) )

Cheers,
Will
*Alliance for Superior Horseradish

*

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Will,

That's pretty easy. Turmstadt will.

I said that this indicated a hole in my training program. It is a hole that I can fill now.

freiman

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 7:56 pm

I have to agree with Asoph and Lubeck on this. Most fighters seem to flinch for fear they are going to get hurt. They have to have faith in their armor that no matter what shot they get hit with they are going to be fine. Drills help in doing this. You have to find a way for each individual to overcome this fear.

On a second subject you need to prepare them for the aggressive fighters. If you are only training them to fight a certain style then they will be overwhelmed when they meet another style. In other words if you are giving them drills and training where each fighter stays the same distance apart and throws the same techniques then they are not prepared for the fighter who climbs into their face grill and starts clubbing them. Shake things up and give them different ways of looking at the fights. The mental side of the battle is more important than the physical side.

Vebrand

lyonnete · Post by **lyonnete** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:27 pm

I've had two good lessons on 'flinching'.

When I first started, I didn't care how hard /I/ got hit, but I'd get very nervous about hurting my oponent. I couldn't bring myself to hit as hard as I got hit. So good old Sir Ephraim said "All right, I'm putting my sword AND my sheild up here to protect my head. Go ahead, hit as hard as you can, I won't move and nothing's getting through." Of course, the minute I swung, he dropped sword and shield and I clanked him as hard as nothing in the head. He smiled at my horrified expression and said, "See? Armor WORKS."

Now, back on topic, a very good drill from Sir Theoderic (this was out of armor): take a non-threatening object, like a hocky glove, and toss it back and forth a couple times. Then toss a sword back and forth a couple times. The point was to show me that I could stop the sword as easily as the hocky glove. I mean, it isn't really a deadly weapon, but we imbue it with the aura of one. Sometimes you just have to desensitize.

Ah well, I'm obviously on the student side of things, but I hope this helps!

freiman the minstrel · Fri Jun 06, 2003 5:16 pm

Thank you to everyone who sent me information on this.

I think I have a way to beat this thing. I am stepping down a KM now, but I am positive that Lord Nathaniel (my deputy and successor) can whup this. I am also positive that he reads the archive.

I think that having one fighter "attack like crazy" and the other only defend (or maybe throw three blows) will help, and "The Square" will help too. 2 on 1's will help as well.

The "attack like crazy" drills will help the aggressor to work on combinations, and will help the defender to trust themselves.

Lyonette, I do something similar with new fighters on their first day. I get down on my knees (in armour), and ask them first to "hit me lightly on the head". This is important, as the rare new fighter instinctivly knows how to throw a blow from their hips. If they don't throw from the body, then I say "throw a good blow", and after that "I guess that wasn't enough, Hit me HARD".

New fighters don't usually have any technique, and they ususally throw "all arm".

I usually follow with "this is why we wear the iron underwear, so we don't ever get hurt, even when the other guy hit's really, REALLY hard."

f