open face bacinet + greathelm in SCA combat

Lokotes of Osprey · Post by **Lokotes of Osprey** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:35 pm

Surely this question has come up before, and I see them sold in a few places, but does anyone in the SCA actually fight in a 'Secret' or open faced bacinet with chain drape under a greathelm? If so, do you pad one or the other or both?

My reason for asking is I want into the Deed at Gulfwars. I'm preparing to build a period kit specific for that event, and after i get the kinks worked out... on to the battle of the 30 eventually up in Pennsic. I've been researching effigies from the 1300-1360 range and when they wear helms, they always seem to be open face bacinets with their great helms laying near them. also after seeing this post:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=93398

I realise its possible to do it right, but is it feasible? are there any examples of someone fighting with that helm configuration?

thanks!

Loko

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:53 pm

It is feasible although many do not choose to use it.

mainly because it is extra protection where it is not needed for our combat purposes. SUPER KOODOs for anyone who does it, but it's not needed.

I know a few have done it in the past, although I don't know of anyone currently fighting in such a configuration.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:57 pm

Doesn't knitebee fight in such a set-up?

Lokotes of Osprey · Post by **Lokotes of Osprey** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:01 pm

I built a sugarloaf off Sinric's pattern here on the archive last year, and I was going to use it as a greathelm, it has 14 gauge tops and 16 gauge sides. The visor can be modified to look more like a greathelm with ease. It's really big on me so I think there is room for a tight fitting openface bacinet underneath to take up the space, but I was curious where I would pad it.

If I padded the inside of the bacinet like I beleive they did, and line the inside of the sugarload with a linen or felt suspension system to keep them from grinding metal on metal, I dont know if I would ever 'feel' a strike from less than a glaive.

Just looking for some experience on the matter. Thanks for the insight Irish!

Loko

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:56 pm

This is my dream combo that would be the crown jewel of my 14th C kit.

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:06 am

Pics of what I wear can be found here. http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... p?t=100342

there is only two real issues I can think of with the combo

#1 fit, the helms have to fit to the wearer and each other properly otherwise you are going to have a HUGE head

#2 chin strap, if the aventail of the bascinet goes up over the chin like it should you can't use a conventional chin strap in the great helm. I solved this with a pair of holes in the back of each helm, the bascinet has a chin strap and a lace ties the two helms together in the back making it safe and passing for SCA use.

As to feeling shots, no matter how much the helms absorb you will learn to calibrate to it, my great helm is 10 and 12g, leather suspension liner in it, then raised from a cone 18g bascinet with linen and wool liner. At first I would take any shot I could feel, see of hear, now with some experience I can judge shots as well as anyone in their personal helm.

Lokotes of Osprey · Post by **Lokotes of Osprey** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:54 am

Thanks Knitebee!

First of all I must confess kit envy... not a very chivalrous trait, but I call it like I see it and that's a phenomenal kit. Secondly, thanks for the response, and the info, but I wanted to make sure I understood you correctly.

knitebee wrote: my great helm is 10 and 12g, leather suspension liner in it, then raised from a cone 18g bascinet with linen and wool liner.

Your head has a linen and wool liner, then the bacinet with aventail, then the greathelm has only a suspension liner between the two helmets? Is there alot of play or movement in the greathelm as you move/look around or is that why the tight fit between the helmets is so important? Also on your site I saw you have a modified faceplate for the greathelm for cut and trust?

As for the chinstrap, how would they have done it back then? Surely they had a way to keep their helmets from flying off in joust or heavy combat that worked around the aventail.

Loko

Lokotes of Osprey · Post by **Lokotes of Osprey** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:05 am

i retract my earlier questions, all my questions were answered, i got sidetracked in another post and didnt read deep enough in the link you provided. Thanks again! your insight is exactly what i was looking for!

Loko

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:42 am

My friend Mathew (now in the St Louis area) wears a fixed grill basicnet with a greathelm over the top in some tournaments. Here is a picture of us in the Combat of the Thirty at Pennsic XXXV:

He is in the right side of the photo

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:25 am

I have fought with this combo a few times. There is a pointed bascinet with aventail under this Mac, Black Prince helm.

and if I every get my but in gear I'll get this one complete:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... highlight=

Lokotes of Osprey · Post by **Lokotes of Osprey** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:43 am

Chris,

That gaston link is the reason this whole line of thought came about. After I laid eyes on that suit you are building something inside me flipped like a switch. The Craftsmanship and attention to historic detail is inspiring. It looks too pretty to fight in.

Up until I read through that link and walked on my jaw a few times all I had really seen were SCA anachronistic suits. Bacinets with bar grills and clap visors and stuff like that. After looking at your armor in that thread I thought it looked 'funny'... and it lead me to dig into the effigies, only to find out that all the OTHER ones actually seem historicly inaccurate. Your thread lead me to discover that the inner bacinet was how it was supposed to be done.

Our armor regulations and safety often take priority over historic accuracy, but i wanted to know if it was at all feisable to do it like they did back then and still be able to fight. From the answers on this post it seems the answer is 'feisable yes, desirable maybe, easy no. I can live with that. Now i just gotta get to work on it.

Thanks for all the posts guys, and especially Knitebee, that thread answers everything perfectly. Wish me luck!

Loko

Edward MacTavish · Post by **Edward MacTavish** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:20 pm

"but i wanted to know if it was at all feisable to do it like they did back then and still be able to fight?"

I thought I answered that for you last Sunday :lol:

I also have a helm set up where I can wear a basinet under a great helm. If you ever want to take a look at it let me know.

Edward

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:24 pm

Chris Gilman wrote:I have fought with this combo a few times. There is a pointed bascinet with aventail under this Mac, Black Prince helm.

and if I every get my but in gear I'll get this one complete:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... highlight=

This has always been one of my favorite harness' and was an inspiration for wearing a full one in the SCA. Of course, until Chris did the new one....now it's the "uberwow" factor. X10.