I have an issue with deflections in SCA combat. A strike that is slowed down by a deflection with a weapon, or even does not reach the target because it inadvertently anvils the other weapon into the blocker is fine.
What I have a problem with are folks who call a shot deflected no matter how hard it hits, if it even touches their weapon or shield.
The question is, are these folks rhinos? (unfortunately, I see these things occur more among higher-echelon fighters, but certainly not as a rule, most folks in that echelon are higher-calibrated, yes, but don't go this far)
I guess you could also ask, how "glancing" does a blow have to be before it is ignored? Not very is how it seems, but still...
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Obsessive dilletante.
Turn on, tune in, Toob out!
The Toob
Deflections in SCA combat
From the Conventions of Combat of the S.C.A., INC.:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
"Fighters are also expected to take into account the timing of the blow and the collision of the weapon with any other object other than the fighter's presumed armor.
NOTE: The fact that a blow struck a shield or another weapon before striking the combatant may be reason why the blow was not effective. However, a blow which strikes with sufficient force and properly oriented shall be considered effective, regardless of what it hit prior to striking the combatant.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So - IF the blow was deflected, but still landed with SUFFICIENT FORCE then it should be taken.
-Keith/Austin.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
"Fighters are also expected to take into account the timing of the blow and the collision of the weapon with any other object other than the fighter's presumed armor.
NOTE: The fact that a blow struck a shield or another weapon before striking the combatant may be reason why the blow was not effective. However, a blow which strikes with sufficient force and properly oriented shall be considered effective, regardless of what it hit prior to striking the combatant.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So - IF the blow was deflected, but still landed with SUFFICIENT FORCE then it should be taken.
-Keith/Austin.
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Frederich Von Teufel
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Your question is a bit ambiguous, being phrased in the general way that it is, so let me start off by saying this. If the blow hits you, you know exactly how it felt, and you have the ability to call it correctly. If you throw the blow, you have only how it felt on your end of the sword, so can only judge it with your limited knowledge. If you only saw the blow thrown, you have only what your eyes tell you, and so can judge almost nothing.
Now, that out of the way, if we are talking about someone who is shrugging off blows under the thinnest of excuses (i.e. during a fight a flat snap skips off the top of their shield and smacks them dead in the face, knocking them off their feet. They get up and say they aren't dead because it glanced first), then the appropriate response it to counsel them on the field about this. ("You are calling the blow not-good since it glanced off your shield first?" "Yep." "After glancing off your shield, did the blow have sufficient force when it hit you?" "Well, yeah..." "Then doesn't that seem like a good blow to you? Shall we reread through the Rules of the List?") There is a chance that this is simply mis-education, not a deliberate act of a rhino.
As a double-check, I would suggest you go and speak to an advanced fighter who you respect in your area and see if they corroborate your opinion of what is going on. An experienced eye may be what is needed here.
Frederich
Now, that out of the way, if we are talking about someone who is shrugging off blows under the thinnest of excuses (i.e. during a fight a flat snap skips off the top of their shield and smacks them dead in the face, knocking them off their feet. They get up and say they aren't dead because it glanced first), then the appropriate response it to counsel them on the field about this. ("You are calling the blow not-good since it glanced off your shield first?" "Yep." "After glancing off your shield, did the blow have sufficient force when it hit you?" "Well, yeah..." "Then doesn't that seem like a good blow to you? Shall we reread through the Rules of the List?") There is a chance that this is simply mis-education, not a deliberate act of a rhino.
As a double-check, I would suggest you go and speak to an advanced fighter who you respect in your area and see if they corroborate your opinion of what is going on. An experienced eye may be what is needed here.
Frederich
Bad dyanmics sometimes comes into account too. I was fighting one of our local Dukes this week at practice and he hit me across the shield and head. I called the shot good. He said that rattan is not steel, and it flexes. His feelings were that with steel the shot would have had sufficient force removed form it before it hit my helmet to have rendered the blow ineffective. The rattan bent and gave me a hard hit even though I got some shield on it.
While I'm not sure I'd quote him in a tourney if another opponent hit me this way again (that might seem shady to some people who don't play the game the way I understand it). I would quote him though if I struck an opponent in the same way, tournamet or not.
While I'm not sure I'd quote him in a tourney if another opponent hit me this way again (that might seem shady to some people who don't play the game the way I understand it). I would quote him though if I struck an opponent in the same way, tournamet or not.
I guess let me apologize straight off if my post sounded ambiguous and bitchy. Your example, Frederich, is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about.
I remember an incident, with a particular and unnamed person, at a tournament when I was on my knees fighting them. They stepped into my range, so I wrapped them while they couldn't get their sword around my shield. They didn't take the blow, so I wrapped them harder. They still didn't take the blow, so I ratcheted it up and wrapped them hard enough to almost send them over me. They *still* didn't take it, so I just dropped my guard and let them end it. I walked away and they offered a feeble "It was catching the edge of my shield."
This same person, at an "elite level" tourney (read, coronet/crown/kingdom level), took a thrust to the torso that sent them sprawling backwards onto their butt (delivered by a rather large guy), and they called it glancing because it didn't hit square. Of course, the other person, in trying to be more chivalrous especially at an event like this, didn't make an issue of it, but I could see from across the field that he was absolutely stunned that this person didn't take the shot.
Now while these two events revolve around one person, I see the "glancing" thing come up alot, especially in the higher level tourneys. It tends to lead to hard feelings afterwards (if you speak to the fighters throwing those blows), so I guess that while deflections are fairly cut and dried, what about glances?
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Obsessive dilletante.
Turn on, tune in, Toob out!
The Toob
I remember an incident, with a particular and unnamed person, at a tournament when I was on my knees fighting them. They stepped into my range, so I wrapped them while they couldn't get their sword around my shield. They didn't take the blow, so I wrapped them harder. They still didn't take the blow, so I ratcheted it up and wrapped them hard enough to almost send them over me. They *still* didn't take it, so I just dropped my guard and let them end it. I walked away and they offered a feeble "It was catching the edge of my shield."
This same person, at an "elite level" tourney (read, coronet/crown/kingdom level), took a thrust to the torso that sent them sprawling backwards onto their butt (delivered by a rather large guy), and they called it glancing because it didn't hit square. Of course, the other person, in trying to be more chivalrous especially at an event like this, didn't make an issue of it, but I could see from across the field that he was absolutely stunned that this person didn't take the shot.
Now while these two events revolve around one person, I see the "glancing" thing come up alot, especially in the higher level tourneys. It tends to lead to hard feelings afterwards (if you speak to the fighters throwing those blows), so I guess that while deflections are fairly cut and dried, what about glances?
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Obsessive dilletante.
Turn on, tune in, Toob out!
The Toob
As far as I'm concerned, if it hit me hard enough then it is good. It doesn't matter if it bounced off my shield and the shield of three others then hit me. Its good.
However, if it still landed with that much force after all that bouncing and skittering then someone needs to talk to you about your shot calibration. Yer gonna kill someone.
However, if it still landed with that much force after all that bouncing and skittering then someone needs to talk to you about your shot calibration. Yer gonna kill someone.
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Sixtus_Goetz
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Proper orientation is a factor also. Such as, the colored striking edge of your weapon. Might have hit like a ton of bricks, but was it "flat" when it hit you? If it was the "flat" of the weapon, then No-Joy.
The person throwing the shot may have a better view and call it flat him/herself.
Saranac Goetz
The person throwing the shot may have a better view and call it flat him/herself.
Saranac Goetz
Absolutely. Presuming you're using an edged weapon a deflection wouldnt cut nearly as well as a shot that landed true and onubstructed. Regardless of the amount of force it still might not be a kill. I mean, you'd knock someone off their feet with the flat of a sword but I doubt you'd kill them, ya know? Now, a mace or a hammer on the other hand...
And just sayin, but anyone who uses that deflection crap just to not have to take a shot is a pussy. End of story.
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Animal Weretiger
"but a simple Tuchuk, ignorant of your ways"
[This message has been edited by Animal (edited 09-12-2003).]
And just sayin, but anyone who uses that deflection crap just to not have to take a shot is a pussy. End of story.
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Animal Weretiger
"but a simple Tuchuk, ignorant of your ways"
[This message has been edited by Animal (edited 09-12-2003).]
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DukeGareth
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I have always been amazed by the people who could tell a weapon hit them flat. That kind of hand-eye coordination is just scary.
As for the deflected/glancing blows. The person who quoted the rules said it all. If it hits with sufficient force it's good. If I'm not mistaken my knight, Duke Lawrence of Ashana, was Society Earl Marshal when that line was added. He used to say "I don't care if it left your opponents hand and bounced off a tree, if it hit you with sufficient force then you're dead."
Gareth, Meridies
As for the deflected/glancing blows. The person who quoted the rules said it all. If it hits with sufficient force it's good. If I'm not mistaken my knight, Duke Lawrence of Ashana, was Society Earl Marshal when that line was added. He used to say "I don't care if it left your opponents hand and bounced off a tree, if it hit you with sufficient force then you're dead."
Gareth, Meridies
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DukeGareth:
<B>I have always been amazed by the people who could tell a weapon hit them flat. That kind of hand-eye coordination is just scary.
Gareth, Meridies</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
At a coronet tournement once I had a very interesting experience. I wasn't fighting that day, but was sitting with my knight and a bunch of non fighters watching the fighting. The non-fighters kept asking why certain shots were not good. My knight and I generally agreed on the probable reason why the blow wasn't good. The usual reasons were flat or the fighter pulled the shot trying to avoid their opponent's. I asked a couple of the fighters about the blows later and they agreeed with our reasons. It was interesting to see the difference in observations between fighters and non fighters.
I sometimes tell my opponents that I think their last blow was flat and ask them what they think. It doesn't happen alot, but 75%+ of the time they agree with me. Sometimes I can see the orientation of the blade, but more often I see their hand/body position and am able to tell from that. I've also found the more experienced the fighter, the harder it is to see.
Jurgen
<B>I have always been amazed by the people who could tell a weapon hit them flat. That kind of hand-eye coordination is just scary.
Gareth, Meridies</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
At a coronet tournement once I had a very interesting experience. I wasn't fighting that day, but was sitting with my knight and a bunch of non fighters watching the fighting. The non-fighters kept asking why certain shots were not good. My knight and I generally agreed on the probable reason why the blow wasn't good. The usual reasons were flat or the fighter pulled the shot trying to avoid their opponent's. I asked a couple of the fighters about the blows later and they agreeed with our reasons. It was interesting to see the difference in observations between fighters and non fighters.
I sometimes tell my opponents that I think their last blow was flat and ask them what they think. It doesn't happen alot, but 75%+ of the time they agree with me. Sometimes I can see the orientation of the blade, but more often I see their hand/body position and am able to tell from that. I've also found the more experienced the fighter, the harder it is to see.
Jurgen
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Sixtus_Goetz
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DukeGareth:
<B>I have always been amazed by the people who could tell a weapon hit them flat. That kind of hand-eye coordination is just scary.
As for the deflected/glancing blows. The person who quoted the rules said it all. If it hits with sufficient force it's good. If I'm not mistaken my knight, Duke Lawrence of Ashana, was Society Earl Marshal when that line was added. He used to say "I don't care if it left your opponents hand and bounced off a tree, if it hit you with sufficient force then you're dead."
Gareth, Meridies</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, I can only tell when I hit someone flat. A sugarloaf helm kinda cuts out alot of the other visions you have.
I'm the same approach, can pin-ball anywhere, if it still makes good contact < amongst other "givin" items> its good in my book.
Saranac Goetz
<B>I have always been amazed by the people who could tell a weapon hit them flat. That kind of hand-eye coordination is just scary.
As for the deflected/glancing blows. The person who quoted the rules said it all. If it hits with sufficient force it's good. If I'm not mistaken my knight, Duke Lawrence of Ashana, was Society Earl Marshal when that line was added. He used to say "I don't care if it left your opponents hand and bounced off a tree, if it hit you with sufficient force then you're dead."
Gareth, Meridies</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, I can only tell when I hit someone flat. A sugarloaf helm kinda cuts out alot of the other visions you have.
I'm the same approach, can pin-ball anywhere, if it still makes good contact < amongst other "givin" items> its good in my book.
Saranac Goetz
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Morgan
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I've seen fighters throw a lot of flat shots when fighting others, so I watch to see if they do it with me. Fighting a squire brother who had that problem for a while, it was really easy to see when he was doing it to me.
Interestingly, I've thrown a bunch of shots lately that *I* thought were sufficiently blocked by my opponent, and they argued that they were NOT sufficiently blocked.
I fight with a buckler a lot lately, and a lot of shots slide just a little bit by. It's really a terrific way to learn some things, but man, you get a lot more "partially blocked" shots to judge.
At least *I* do right now!
Interestingly, I've thrown a bunch of shots lately that *I* thought were sufficiently blocked by my opponent, and they argued that they were NOT sufficiently blocked.
I fight with a buckler a lot lately, and a lot of shots slide just a little bit by. It's really a terrific way to learn some things, but man, you get a lot more "partially blocked" shots to judge.
At least *I* do right now!-
Dalewyn
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Speaking of calibration, I ran into a related problem. One time I was fighting greatsword against a sword and shield fighter, and I was getting lots of partial blocks against his hits. So he (all 300 lbs of him) decided to crank it up and attempt to blow my weapon aside. Had I not blocked at this time, the blows would have been excessive. As it was, I blocked a leg shot with my hand (and hockey glove), broke my hand and learned that I needed gauntlets. And partial blocks can piss people off.
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Dalewyn
Dalewyn@dbis.ns.ca
www.AlchemyArmory.com
[This message has been edited by Dalewyn (edited 09-17-2003).]
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Dalewyn
Dalewyn@dbis.ns.ca
www.AlchemyArmory.com
[This message has been edited by Dalewyn (edited 09-17-2003).]
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Fearghus Macildubh
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Even if I get a piece of a shot coming in, when it hits hard enough, it's good. In my bascinet, some shots will glance off, if they hit high when my head is tilted to the side. If the shot still has good thump, I take it, because them's the rules of the game.
I've even taken shots off my shieldrim. When first using a strapped round, I used to block too close and low to the body, often deflecting shots up into my face. I'd take 'em, because they were hard enough. Still embarrasing though.
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Slainte,
Fearghus
How long will we fight? We will fight until Hell freezes over; then we fight on the ice.
Fearghus' Homepage
I've even taken shots off my shieldrim. When first using a strapped round, I used to block too close and low to the body, often deflecting shots up into my face. I'd take 'em, because they were hard enough. Still embarrasing though.
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Slainte,
Fearghus
How long will we fight? We will fight until Hell freezes over; then we fight on the ice.
Fearghus' Homepage
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Greenshield
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All these questions could easily be avoided if everyone actually wore the armour we in the SCA are 'seen' to be wearing. IE: A nasal helm, chain, and leather vambraces. Were you to be struck with steel in the fashion that we in the SCA throw a blow I think you would find yourself calling many more shots.
Insurance and lawyers however, have made this less than popular these days. As such we have the rules we have. Just because you dress like a tank does not mean you are now able to call less shots than someone not incased in steel. Personally I think everyone should fight a few rounds in chain to learn to calibrate properly. Not to mention what a spear will really do to you even with the lightest thrust.
Know I'm sure many of you will cry foul and thats fine. But try it some time and you might find it an interesting experiment. But don't blame me if you wind up un the hospital
C
Insurance and lawyers however, have made this less than popular these days. As such we have the rules we have. Just because you dress like a tank does not mean you are now able to call less shots than someone not incased in steel. Personally I think everyone should fight a few rounds in chain to learn to calibrate properly. Not to mention what a spear will really do to you even with the lightest thrust.
Know I'm sure many of you will cry foul and thats fine. But try it some time and you might find it an interesting experiment. But don't blame me if you wind up un the hospital
C
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Frederich Von Teufel
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalewyn:
<B>Speaking of calibration, I ran into a related problem. One time I was fighting greatsword against a sword and shield fighter, and I was getting lots of partial blocks against his hits. So he (all 300 lbs of him) decided to crank it up and attempt to blow my weapon aside. Had I not blocked at this time, the blows would have been excessive. As it was, I blocked a leg shot with my hand (and hockey glove), broke my hand and learned that I needed gauntlets. And partial blocks can piss people off.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've had this happen to me a couple times over the years, and funnily enough almost always when I'm fighting with Greatsword also. I'm not sure I understand the thought process, but I certainly understand that if I hadn't blocked the blows I'd have ended up hurt badly (and in one case even when I did block it: bruised ribs.)
Which part of "Don't break your toys" didn't they understand?
Frederich
<B>Speaking of calibration, I ran into a related problem. One time I was fighting greatsword against a sword and shield fighter, and I was getting lots of partial blocks against his hits. So he (all 300 lbs of him) decided to crank it up and attempt to blow my weapon aside. Had I not blocked at this time, the blows would have been excessive. As it was, I blocked a leg shot with my hand (and hockey glove), broke my hand and learned that I needed gauntlets. And partial blocks can piss people off.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've had this happen to me a couple times over the years, and funnily enough almost always when I'm fighting with Greatsword also. I'm not sure I understand the thought process, but I certainly understand that if I hadn't blocked the blows I'd have ended up hurt badly (and in one case even when I did block it: bruised ribs.)
Which part of "Don't break your toys" didn't they understand?
Frederich