Archduke Sigismund of Tyrol - Hidden Details of His Armor

Iron Colossus · Post by **Iron Colossus** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:08 am

In an effort to better understand the construction of German Late Gothic Plate Armor, I was seeking to find some folks that have working knowledge of the authentic construction methods of such armor. I would love the help in understanding how this armor is truly supposed to be made. It is my hope that there may be Armorers that have handled museum pieces among the replies, but all observations and construction solutions are welcome.

I've previously crafted late Gothic German Armor using my own interpretation of the articulation in the past. It's my intention to research more authentic articulation and assembly methods for use on future pieces.

In addition to asking questions, I suppose what I'll do here is share my own observations and see if others may confirm or correct my assumptions. In any event, I believe the dialogue will be useful for Armorers that are seeking solutions to construction and articulation of various armor pieces.

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---My base model that I'm discussing here in particular is the famous harness given to Archduke Sigismund of Tyrol from Emperor Maximilian I, which was crafted by Lorenz Helmschmid.

---If someone would be able to post a photo of his armor for reference, that would be very much appreciated!

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Breastplates:

-Placart, Demi-Placart, and Breastplate and the opposing plates on the Backplate: What type of construction or articulation? Sliding articulation? Solid construction?

I have assumed that the main three plates are held together possibly with sliding rivets. I had previously constructed mine with sliding rivets between the Placart and Demi-Placart, but used leather to connect the Breastplate to the Demi-Placart (ignoring the Demi-Placard), much like the Italians did, but with the strap on the inside, rather than the outside,as I have sometimes seen. I feel I did this in error and perhaps should have used sliding rivets between the Demi-Placard and the Breastplate. My current solution does actually allow me to be able to completely roll the shoulders while striking/blocking with a weapon/shield. Since the weight of the Placart rests on the hips and the weight of the upper Breastplate rests on the shoulders, it allows for the body to twist during attack or defense, since the pieces move independent of each other, yet are connected.

If these plates were supposed articulate via sliding rivets, how much movement did they allow?

That all being said, it seems that often times Armorers connect those plates together without articulation and simply rivet them solidly together. Is this correct? Or is it just done for display or perhaps just for jousting armor?

-Breastplates & Backplates: How are they held together between the Breastplate Group and the Backplate Group? Keys? Hook and Pin? Hinge-hook-and-pin? Adjustable Hinge-and Key? Spring Pins? Straps/belts (not shown)?

Are they connected directly to the plates that they oppose? Placart-to-Back Placart? Demi-Placart-to-rear Demi-Placart? Breastplate-to-Backplate? Or do they just overlap and not fully function?

-Arm Gussets: Are the gussets at the openings for the arms on sliding rivets, or do they simply pivot?

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Shoulders:

-Pauldrons: Are the Pauldrons on the Sigismund of Tyrol Harness fastened to some details attached unerneath the bottom plate of the Bevor, somewhat like how some Pauldrons are attached to a Gorget? Or are they looped around the straps bridging the Breastplate to the Backplate? Are they supposed to be laced to an Arming Doublet/Jack?

-Gardbrace: There appears to be a Gardbrace over the Pauldron on the wearer's right shoulder. Is that permanenty fastened to the Pauldron via the large brass rivets? Fastened by key? Hook and pin?

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Legs:

'Demi-Cuisse': There is a third plate/lame above the Knee Cop opposite the Demi-Greave that I call a 'Demi-Cuisse'. I see rivets at three points on top of this plate/lame. Is it articulated via sliding rivets to create transition movent between the knee shell articulations and the Cuisse for kneeling/standing/bending/twisting? Is it riveted solid?

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Bevor: I see rivets joining the bottom plate of the Bevor to the plate(s) above it which has the complex/compound/reverse curves. Is there any articulation between these two plates?

I see a seam on the piece with the complex/compound/reverse curve. Does that seem have a function? Or is it like the lines on the Placard in the nook of the reverse curve, just above the fauld and culet?

I see rivets at the rear of the top plate to the Bevor. Does this plate drop down, via spring pin like some Bevors do? Is it solid?

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Hands:

Gauntlets: Are the Carpal Plates on the back of the hand joined with sliding rivets to allow the hand to turn over or is it just basic step articulation?

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Looking forward to seeing some answers to the hidden details of this harness!

Thank you!

~Iron Colossus

fghthty545y · Post by **fghthty545y** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:24 am

This sort of armour has lots of flutes.

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:44 am

Here are my personal photos of the harness. Sadly they're too board in scale to reveal any hidden intricacies, but I can say that the design of the suit is phenomenal, and I'm looking forward to the possibility that someone will post some amazing detail shots here.

First, a hi-res of the upper portion of the harness

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:07 am

There are examples of both all rigid rivets and of the center rivet being slotted and the side ones fixed. I'm fairly certain that the Sigismond suit is all fixed. The breast plate stops at the short ribs, your body doesn't bend through the rib cage so its not necessary for the armour to.

Breast to back plate, It looks to be a pin set up of some sort http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/2043060807/in/photostream/lightbox/ Though this one has leather straps on each side http://www.wallaceprints.org/image.php?id=429366&idx=6&fromsearch=true

Arm gussets, typically most of them are slotted at the top rivet, for the Sigismond suit and German Gothic in general I'm not certain.

Pauldrons are laced on http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/2043864838/in/photostream/

No idea on the guard brace.

What you call Demi-cuisse, its fixed. I would theorize that it might have been done that way to make manufacturing and fitting easier, get the Cuisse shaped, get the joint done, have the customer show up and adjust where to mount the knee assembly to the cuisse.

Bevor should be no articulation between the bottom plate and the neck. The seam you mention might be the engraved/etched line similar to what is also found around the thinnest point of the helmet and the waist line. Yes the top plate of the bevor articulates down, spring pin towards the front, pivot rivets on each side near the back.

Gauntlets should have sliding rivets.

Iron Colossus · Post by **Iron Colossus** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:12 am

Jojo Zerach - You aren't kidding! I cheated on my first gothic harness and just ran half round beads in place of peaked flutes. It looked nice, but it wasn't right. That was about 12 years ago. It was too much work to do it right, back then, and I was in a pinch to finish the armor so I could get out and fight. Now I won't settle for less than doing it right.

Gerhard von Liebau - Thanks bunches for posting the photos! Love them! That will definitely help alot for the discussion. To date, I think that this is my favorite harness. If not this one, then perhaps the harness of Duke Alexander Farness of Parma and Piacenza, by Lucio Piccinino.

~Iron Colossus

Iron Colossus · Post by **Iron Colossus** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:13 am

Knitebee - Good observations. I'm on board with alot that you've said, even the speculations. Some folks that have seen the inside of the harness would be able to confirm one way or another for us.

That was a good shot that you posted of the pin at the waistline joining the front and back Placarts. I can't tell if it's just a pin or if its a key. I would like to know if there is something holding the upper Breastplate and Upper Backplate together, as well. If the rivets are solid, I would say no, but if they are sliding rivets, I would assume that perhaps they are joined to continue the lines of armor, rather than sagging or perhaps gapping, as well as synchronizing movement of the plates being paired together.

As for the Pauldrons being laced on, I cannot tell what it's laced to. Either it's attached to something underneath the bottom plate of the Bevor (kinda doubting it), or perhaps it's supposed to be laced onto an Arming Doublet. I think there is a wooden mannequin underneath that harness, so they may have placed some eye bolts in it's shoulder to represent arming points on an Arming Doublet. The other thought that I had mentioned in my initial post is that it may be laced around the strap that runs from the Breastplate to the Backplate. I've attached entire arm harnesses around such straps before, via a strap at the top of a Spaulder, but I'm not convinced that it was ever done historically with either Spaulders or Pauldrons.

That's a good theory about the possible function of the Demi-Cuisse; I had not considered that use before.

~Iron Colossus

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 6:15 am

I have not pulled that armour apart. I only know one person who has that posts here.

From other similar items:

All of the really German breastplates I have seen have the breast and placart secured by a bolt. Sometimes there are multiple bolt holes, sometimes just one. All of these are 2 piece breastplates not 3 piece so I am not certain about this one. It does appear to me that the goal was not to provide a lot of movement in the center.

Gauntlets. There are sliding rivets on the ones I have handled. You can see details of a pair here:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-98.html

It has sliding rivets on the back of hand and on the finger lames.
The sliding rivets on the fingers are a little stiff. I think that is because the rivets used to re-assemble it during cleaning are a little large.

This one moves more nicely:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-47.html

The sliding rivets on the fingers move very smoothly. You just can't really understand how nicely it moves in every direction until you play with it. Lovely.

I have little movies showing movement of both of these. They don't seem to be uploaded, I will try to get them up today and add a link.

Wade

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:21 am

While I figure out how I want to link them for the long term:

http://www.allenantiques.com/movies/Gau ... vement.mp4
http://www.allenantiques.com/movies/GothicMovement.mp4
http://www.allenantiques.com/movies/Rus ... vement.mp4

videos of how 3 gauntlets or parts of gauntlets move.
The first 2 are about the right style/period for this discussion. The third just moves really well. It is later, but a really good example of how movement really should work. See the lack of gaps all the way through movement. Many real ones aren't that nice, but this is what should be the target.

Wade

Mykaru · Post by **Mykaru** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:29 am

Well thought out questions. I suggest contacting James Arlen Gillaspie, but please have the Q&A session here as many of us would love to hear James' observations.

I would also advise doing a search for posts he has authored, some of your questions may well have been answered.

A thread with some interesting links
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... =sigismund

Iron Colossus · Post by **Iron Colossus** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:21 pm

wcallen - Thank you vey much for the photo and video posts! Those video posts are fantastic and incredibly useful in understanding the mechanical 'physiology' of such pieces. Like you said, those pieces do move nicely and the articulation remains tight and gapless.

It dawned on me as I was watching the videos that very tight sliding articulation can be maintained on pieces that are going to be struck repeatedly in combat, particularly *if* the material is spring steel. When using softer materials, with less 'memory', I think there is a tendency to leave a little extra 'slop' between plates to help avoid the plates from locking up after even slight deformation under impact. This bolsters up the notion that I need to invest more into making spring steel parts, even if for the sake of tighter articulation, which seems to be more period and attractive. Some Armorers track how much they gap their parts by placing a U-shaped shim between the plates and around the rivet, while they pien their rivets. I do this sometimes, especially if I'm concerned about overtightening the rivet.

As with these videos, I like seeing anything that substantiates the use of sliding rivets on pieces. I have a tendency to try to get as much free movement out of my pieces as I can without sacrificing too much of other things, such as strength, durability, and authenticity. If the material and design can handle it, I make rivet slots longer, and have been known to slot two connected and riveted plates in different directions to create 'slop','give', or twist at the expense of possibly being less period. To date, I've not seen two axis sliding rivets on period armor, so I avoid it's use.

Mykaru - I had thought about trying to contact certain Armorers privately, but like you I felt an open post where others can learn and participate would be more useful to the Armoring Community. I didn't have much luck in a search on this forum for information on what I was seeking, including trying to find some related posts by James Arlen Gillaspie prior to starting this thread, so I opted for the new post.

The link you posted had some broken/dead links/pics, *but* had a nice Late Gothic Knee Cop (likely of the Archduke Sigismund) tutorial by William Hurt, of Age of Armor that was a treat!

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:14 pm

Just so we don't loose the videos, they are now linked off of my details page -

http://www.allenantiques.com/Details.html

Just go to the bottom.

Back to the normal conversation.

Wade

Frederich Von Teufel · Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:08 pm

If there is one armourer who I think I have aspired to emulate and learn from it has to be Lorenz. I have spent hours simply studing and staring at the frog mouth jousting harness that in the Philly MoA; I'm certain that the guards must have thought I was casing the place.

The Sigismund suit is incredible for many reasons; perhaps the first is simply how complete it is. Considering how long Lorenz and his family made armour, and how much armour they must have made in their lifetimes, we have so few peices left to study.

Thankfully, the Sigismund suit gets lots of attention. I'll point out this Flickr account just in case you haven't found it. The photographer has quite a few photos of the suit.

To that I'll add another dozen or so from my own collection. http://members.armourarchive.org/teufel/Armour/Sigismund%20Suit/ I have some close ups and detail views.

You can never have too many photos of the armour you are interested in, it's the next best thing to actually being able to handle the peice.

Frederich

Iron Colossus · Post by **Iron Colossus** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:07 am

Frederich Von Teufel - First off, thank you for the photo contribution. You're right, you can never have too many photos of the armor that you're interested in. I work constantly off of photos when trying to emulate a past Armorers work. My books are pretty dirty from being handled while I work.

A piece of good news about one picture in the set of personal photos that you linked (closeup of the elbow and waist: The pin at the side waistline on the Placart is definitely a key, BUT I cannot see a keyhole around it. One would think that you should be able to see the hole that the key is poking through. This leads me to believe that the key is not attached to the rear Placart and projecting through the front Placart, as you would think. I'm thinking that it might be attached directly to the front Placart... That being said, I see what appears to be empty holes in the area of the key on the rear Placart where perhaps there was either a strap attached or a hinge (sometimes brass) with holes in it that would drop over the key. It's just guesses at this point, but at least we may be closer to figuring it out. : )

Anubis · Post by **Anubis** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:23 pm

A couple things which I've learned about the suit which are in sharp contrast to most armour.
The suit is incredibly symmetrical. I've been lucky enough to handle many pieces and they are never symmetrical ( helms are especially notorious) Helmschmid was obviously measuring things rather than going "by eye" or "good enough"
Also, the interior is incredibly smooth, it looks like modern cold rolled steel. Where most armour looks like the surface of the moon inside. Possibly from thorough planishing rather than just grinding until smooth.

Sorry this doesn't answer your specific questions Colossus, but they're some cool secrets of the suit.

Grant

Iron Colossus · Post by **Iron Colossus** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:55 am

Anubis / Grant - I, for one, welcome all information about this armor! Thanks for that. I like knowing that it appeared that Lorenz Helmschmid was perhaps seeking perfection in his craft.

There is something else that Armorers may find encouraging about what you you've stated here, especially those who have never seen period armor (from back-in-the-day) up close; Alot of armor was indeed flawed! That can be a bit of a relief for some of us that tend to be perfectionists, or that might have the misconception that armor was "perfectly" crafted. That being said, I would be hard pressed to discourage seeking perfection of one's own work. In our craft perfection may not be attainable, *but* doing high quality work is. Armorers like Lorenz Helmschmid encourage us to craft well during our journey as Armorers, by showing us through the details of their work that they've left behind. Sometimes it takes folks like you, Grant, to point that out for the rest of us. : )

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:03 pm

I forgot to mention - welcome to the Armour Archive, Colossus!

-Gerhard