Mass weapon question

[Baron Alcyoneus]

AEiric, I wouldn't pass that as a mace, or as a mass weapon because you are at least as likely to be hitting with the haft rather than the head. The padded sections look like 3/8" rather than the 1/2" required here, as well.

[Sir Omarad]

With the one-piece mace rule, I suppose that I could take a 36" long piece of 1.5" thick rattan, shave down the haft - say 8" worth, stick a basket hilt on it, and now I have a "mace" with a a 28" "head" that handles just like a sword except that 1) it doesn't hit flat, and 2) it kills to the hips & shoulders. Nice.

I would submit that doing as I describe above would be 1) legal, and 2) cheesy. Yeah, it's a bar mace, but it's still cheesy and takes advantage of the rules.

If we allow one-piece maces, then there should be a rule that the head can only be a maximum of xx" long, or yy% of the overall length. Say, 25% (1/4) of the overall length or 8", whichever is *less*. That would mean that a 32" or longer mace gets to have an 8" max head, while < 32" gets to have 1/4 length head (so, a 24" mace gets to have a 6" head, an 18" mace gets a 4.5" head, etc.

Perhaps there should also be a requirement of a diameter difference between the haft & head? Say, the head must be 3/4" larger diameter than the haft, which is just a 3/8" step from the haft to the head.

- Scott

You can do that withthe current sword rules if you put a striking edge on it.
I forgot to post the new wording, sorry.
Got busy last night.

[AEiric Orvender]

AEiric, I wouldn't pass that as a mace, or as a mass weapon because you are at least as likely to be hitting with the haft rather than the head. The padded sections look like 3/8" rather than the 1/2" required here, as well.

That’s interesting, both the old design (top) and the newer (bottom) have always passed as maces.
(Not saying you're wrong, no disrespect ment)

The construction of the maces are:

The 'padded' sections are leather bands. The older design is made of skinned 1.5" rattan the striking bands measure to 1.25" with 0.75" separation between bands making an overall 'head of 8" not including the tip, the overall length including tip is 26" leaving 7" of 'haft' between my hand and the striking head.

The Newer design is made from 2.5" rattan shaped into an oblong the thickness being 1.75" and the width being 2" The leather striking bands are 1" wide, with a separation of 1.25" the "head" overall is 6" the overall length including tip is 23" the 'haft' from fist to the head is only 6.5"

I'd really have to be short-sticking someone to catch them on the haft.

Can you suggest options to make these more correct?

[Varyag]

So why do softball maces need to be padded if solid rattan ones don't?

Don't hate, I'm just a Westie!

[Count Johnathan]

So why do softball maces need to be padded if solid rattan ones don't?

Don't hate, I'm just a Westie!

Don't worry Omarad, I got this one!

Because it's different.
Different rules for different things.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

3. If the weapon has a head, it shall not be constructed of solely rigid materials. The head shall be firmly and securely attached to the haft. The head shall allow at least a 1⁄2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give between the striking surface and the weapon haft.

Leather isn't going to give the 1/2" of progressive resistance required. Due to how thin the bands are, you wouldn't have to be short-sticking them to hit with the haft, you'd just have to hit them between or near the bands.

[AEiric Orvender]

Leather isn't going to give the 1/2" of progressive resistance required. Due to how thin the bands are, you wouldn't have to be short-sticking them to hit with the haft, you'd just have to hit them between or near the bands.

Ok I see where you're going... the bands need to have give. hitting someone between the bands is near impssiable and the bands are so clost even impacting the forearm I still hit with 2 bands insted of between them.

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

Easy idea for a "What is a Mace" rule:

The SCA defines a Mace as this- If you put said questionable Mace-like item in Jarl Rolf the Relentless's hands and, all of a sudden, your whole body screams at you to run away this instant, it is a Mace. (note: Jarl Rolf is not absolutely required for this test. If you do not have easy access to His Grace then find a suitable Duke in you area as substitute and perform said test.)



-Ivan

[Sir Omarad]

Change this paragraph:

3. If the weapon has a head, it shall not be constructed of solely rigid materials. The head shall be firmly and securely attached to the haft. The head shall allow at least a 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give between the striking surface and the weapon haft.

To this paragraph:

3. a) If the weapon has a head, it shall not be constructed of solely rigid materials. The head shall be firmly and securely attached to the haft. The head shall allow at least a 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give between the striking surface and the weapon haft.

b) Maces made of a single shaped piece of rattan will require that the striking area (head) must be easily distinguishable from the haft and the entire weapon shall be constructed solely and entirely from a single piece of rattan.

[Kilkenny]

Change this paragraph:

3. If the weapon has a head, it shall not be constructed of solely rigid materials. The head shall be firmly and securely attached to the haft. The head shall allow at least a 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give between the striking surface and the weapon haft.

To this paragraph:

3. a) If the weapon has a head, it shall not be constructed of solely rigid materials. The head shall be firmly and securely attached to the haft. The head shall allow at least a 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give between the striking surface and the weapon haft.

b) Maces made of a single shaped piece of rattan will require that the striking area (head) must be easily distinguishable from the haft and the entire weapon shall be constructed solely and entirely from a single piece of rattan.

The way that is phrased right now, b) is a violation of a). Considering just how banal the arguments get, I think you need to specify that there is an exception to the rule prohibiting heads being made of solely rigid materials and that the exception is for edgeless crushing weapons (commonly referred to as "maces") and that these weapons may be carved from a single piece of rattan, as you have it above.

Do you intend to exclude hammers ? Again, with the approach people take to the rules, it might be necessary to specifically exclude them if you don't mean to include them. And if you don't want them included, then forget my "edgeless crushing weapons".

[Sir Omarad]

b is specific to maces.

[Kilkenny]

why could it not be an axe?

Because an axe like that would fail the most fundamental rule of all. On its face it is obviously not safe - not even the version of safe that applies for fighting in the SCA. Back in the beginning they tried plywood axe heads - and could split logs with them. A one piece rattan weapon of those dimensions would be genuinely dangerous.

[Kilkenny]

b is specific to maces.

Ok. I would say that explicitly rather than implicitly. I'm still not sure what I think of the idea

[eidelon]

why could it not be an axe?

Because an axe like that would fail the most fundamental rule of all. On its face it is obviously not safe - not even the version of safe that applies for fighting in the SCA. Back in the beginning they tried plywood axe heads - and could split logs with them. A one piece rattan weapon of those dimensions would be genuinely dangerous.

then how can a solid mace head be any different. an axe head made of the exact same material weighing the same amount as the mace (or more likely lighter as there is less material left over) with an edge carved from that natural curve of the rattan should act just like the mace. i really cant see how this could cause any more damage this was just gone over in the shaped weapons thread. not that it really matters i don't think there is any rattan thick enough to make a useful axe in this fashion.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

I suppose that in theory you could find rattan over 3"d to make into an axe or a mace. It would still have to be 1.25" thick throughout. Have you ever seen an axe that was only 3" wide? (yes, they did exist, but I'm not convinced that they were good for anything besides unarmed peasants)

[muttman]

why could it not be an axe?

Because an axe like that would fail the most fundamental rule of all. On its face it is obviously not safe - not even the version of safe that applies for fighting in the SCA. Back in the beginning they tried plywood axe heads - and could split logs with them. A one piece rattan weapon of those dimensions would be genuinely dangerous.

then how can a solid mace head be any different. an axe head made of the exact same material weighing the same amount as the mace (or more likely lighter as there is less material left over) with an edge carved from that natural curve of the rattan should act just like the mace. i really cant see how this could cause any more damage this was just gone over in the shaped weapons thread. not that it really matters i don't think there is any rattan thick enough to make a useful axe in this fashion.

I think at that point it really comes down to the judgement of the marshals. Having been a marshal for several years I would have looked at a mace like that, put it under my "would I feel safe using it or having it used against me" filter and bounced it with a "it MIGHT be legal but not on my field on this day. Feel free and even encouraged to go over my head"
Drefan

[Baron Logan]

My initial gripe about the whole thing was the requirement of having to put an extra layer of half inch foam on weapon heads made from the dense foam. ( for instance the By My Hand mace and polearm heads or "training softball" style maces)

All I've got to do is ask myself which I'd rather get hit in the collarbone with. The 7.5 unpadded polearm or lathed out mace head never seem to win over the option of an "unpadded" black foam weapons.

[Kilkenny]

then how can a solid mace head be any different. an axe head made of the exact same material weighing the same amount as the mace (or more likely lighter as there is less material left over) with an edge carved from that natural curve of the rattan should act just like the mace. i really cant see how this could cause any more damage this was just gone over in the shaped weapons thread. not that it really matters i don't think there is any rattan thick enough to make a useful axe in this fashion.

The axe is going to be axe shaped, right? That ought to be enough to answer your question.

The mace head is going to be largely cylindrical and it will not have all of its mass aligned directly behind the edge. Difference in focus.

[Thomas MacFinn]

People who simply think maces are cool will use them whether or not hip shots are kills. I can think of no way to make solid contruction maces that would take advantage of the mass weapon rules without also encouraging people who want to game the system or hurt other people.

BTW, I know Aeric and he is definately in the "maces are cool" group.

[Thomas MacFinn]

BTW, this unfinished mace weighs only 1 lb 4 oz. If you wanted a mass weapon, you could add foam and clackers, still be easily under 5 lbs, and still have something halfway fast.

[AEiric Orvender]

BTW, I know Aeric and he is definately in the "maces are cool" group.

Well technicaly it would be a 'club' or Burda for a 1st C. Iceni.

One of these days I'd also like to replicate the 'war club' used by the Germanic tribe the Cherusci, at the Teutoburg Forest, Basicly a curved blub of oak where the striking surface is beveled to a edge.... I was thinking I could steam, and shap sove thick rattan and plane the shape into it, then stain it an 'oak' color.

[eidelon]

then how can a solid mace head be any different. an axe head made of the exact same material weighing the same amount as the mace (or more likely lighter as there is less material left over) with an edge carved from that natural curve of the rattan should act just like the mace. i really cant see how this could cause any more damage this was just gone over in the shaped weapons thread. not that it really matters i don't think there is any rattan thick enough to make a useful axe in this fashion.

The axe is going to be axe shaped, right? That ought to be enough to answer your question.

The mace head is going to be largely cylindrical and it will not have all of its mass aligned directly behind the edge. Difference in focus.

Change this paragraph:

3. If the weapon has a head, it shall not be constructed of solely rigid materials. The head shall be firmly and securely attached to the haft. The head shall allow at least a 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give between the striking surface and the weapon haft.

To this paragraph:

3. a) If the weapon has a head, it shall not be constructed of solely rigid materials. The head shall be firmly and securely attached to the haft. The head shall allow at least a 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) of progressive give between the striking surface and the weapon haft.

b) Maces made of a single shaped piece of rattan will require that the striking area (head) must be easily distinguishable from the haft and the entire weapon shall be constructed solely and entirely from a single piece of rattan.

could you show me where in that new rule it says the mace is or has to be cylindrical?
i usually make flanged or spiked maces, i do not see any where in the new rule that says i would not be able to do the same thing from a solid piece of rattan, therefor your argument that it would be inherently unsafe because of the shape of an axe seems a tad bit invalid. there could be no difference in shape from a flanged mace and an ace except the number of striking surfaces.

[AwP]

Seems a bit unsafe to me too. Would the shaped maces include things like a gutentag? Except for the spike, a rattan gurentag is hardly any different than a real weapons grade gutentag, and I'm thinking could seriously squish someone in armor.

[Kilkenny]

Seems a bit unsafe to me too. Would the shaped maces include things like a gutentag? Except for the spike, a rattan gurentag is hardly any different than a real weapons grade gutentag, and I'm thinking could seriously squish someone in armor.

I'm not aware of any one handed gutentags. As I understand it, SCA rules don't allow two-handed maces. Therefore, you could not make a gutentag following the one piece mace construction rule. Your gutentag has to comply with the polearm rules.

That's the way I understand it.

[AwP]

Ok, well good, you could probably kill someone with one.

[Count Johnathan]

As I understand it, SCA rules don't allow two-handed maces.

Where do the rules say that 2 handed maces are not allowed?

[Count Johnathan]

I'm not trying to start an argument with you Gavin. Honestly I do not know where you get that understanding from. Is there a section of the rules that suggest that two handed maces are not allowed or some obscure portion of the construction rules that simply makes building a two handed mace a no-no?

[Thomas MacFinn]

Gavin amended his opening statement at the end of the paragraph. A two handed weapon would be covered under the two handed weapon rules.

The Midrealm rules say it explicitly:

3. All maces are strictly single-handed weapons. Under no circumstances may any sort of clicker be
introduced into a two handed weapons.
4. A single-handed mass weapon may not exceed 48 inches in length. Any mass weapon longer than 48 inches is considered to be a polearm and covered by those standards.

Not that it couldn't be made at all, but that the relevant rules would be covered under polearms not single handed maces.

[Count Johnathan]

That's a strange and terribly confusing rule. Not that it's worded poorly but there are lot's of maces out there designed to be used with two hands. I just really don't get that rule at all.

That's a Midrealm only rule yes? The SCA rulebook doesn't say that. And it didn't seem to be an amended statement. He said pretty specifically (which I quoted)

As I understand it, SCA rules don't allow two-handed maces.

Yeah I just read the whole statement again and I still don't get it.

[Thomas MacFinn]

As I said, he amended his opening statement at the end of the same paragraph:

... Your gutentag has to comply with the polearm rules.

[Thomas MacFinn]

Which in the middle kingdom doesn't ban two handed maces either. We just call them unpadded polearms.

[Count Johnathan]

As I said, he amended his opening statement at the end of the same paragraph:

... Your gutentag has to comply with the polearm rules.

Well that's not really an amendment to the statement

As I understand it, SCA rules don't allow two-handed maces.

but if it was simply an error I can understand that.

[Count Johnathan]

Which in the middle kingdom doesn't ban two handed maces either. We just call them unpadded polearms.

Well that just makes it even more confusing then. So you guys consider a greatsword to be a polearm? Weird.

[Thomas MacFinn]

Not exactly

1. Single Handed Weapon and Shield (W/SH): Single handed swords, maces, axes, hammers and shield. Must also demonstrate regular and face thrust ability.
2. Polearm (PA): Two handed mass weapons. Must also demonstrate regular and face thrust ability.
3.Two-handed Weapon (GW): Any two-handed sword style including ricasso and bastard
sword. Must also demonstrate regular and face thrust ability.
4. Spear (SP): 9 to 12 ft spear in a melee situation. Must also demonstrate regular and face thrust ability.
5. Two-Weapon (TW): Any combination of previously authorized weapons styles. Must also demonstrate regular and face thrust ability.
6. Combat Archery (CA): Bows/crossbows using specially constructed armored combat arrows. See Appendix A
7. Siege Crew/Engineer. See Appendix B.

[Count Johnathan]

Your kingdoms extra rules are strange to me. I don't see the purpose of any of those additional wordings.

What's funny is that my kingdom pretty much follows the SCA rules exactly with very little additions and I'm pretty sure all of my weapons and armor also meets your kingdoms "additional" standards.