If you could ask the 'founders'?

[jester]

Guys and gals,

We asked the founders. They have answered. I think the debate on other issues can go off to other threads. What they said they did, they did, regardless of our views for or against.

With thanks,

-Aaron

Agreed. Ask questions here. Make a new thread to debate answers.

[Amanda M]

I went and read through the first couple of years already and there is an interesting little bit about a woman that went out to fight and was complaining about getting hit to hard, and it set women back fighting a few years.

Anyhow I think the looks of people's kits is steadily improving with time. Even in the time I've been participating, which is almost a decade now I think, I have noticed a lot of improvement at least in Atenveldt. I blame the internet.

I did the same thing, and noticed the same trends with kits. Ironically enough, pics from the first year had people better dressed than some I've seen VERY recently.

And there was wrastlin' too! Did ja see that?!?

There's still plenty of crappy kits, but I think now it's easier to get information on where to buy stuff and how to make it, and more people making things that there used to be.

[Jofthepeace]

Yup, and like you said....blame the internet

[Aaron]

To all who were there that day, and all who carried the banner on:

Thank you.


You have made a great society, warts and all, and I'm very thankful. And I'm thankful for the comments shared here.

With thanks,

-Aaron

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Founders-
How much did basket hilts transform the way people wielded their swords? I have seen old footage of the guys using crossguards made of split rattan and their hands don't drift anywhere near the opponents blade.
-Vitus

[Jonny Deuteronomy]

Thank you Jester for putting all this together.
You never cease to amaze, even after 20 some odd years of knowing you.

[Aaron]

To the founders:

1. If you could change one thing about that first year, what would it be?

2. Would you all agree on this point?

With deep respect,

-Aaron

[Balin50]

Is there founders on here? or is just henrik? Maybe thread should be if you could ask henrik?

Balin

[Saritor]

Is there founders on here? or is just henrik? Maybe thread should be if you could ask henrik?

Jester emailed them directly after gathering questions. Henrik just dropped in and gave us the answers rather more directly.

[jester]

If there are more questions I'll send them on to Duke Siegfried. Duke Paul invited Duke Henrik to drop in. I'll extend the invitation to Duke Siegfried as well. If anyone knows any other founders/early participants please invite them as well.

To make it more likely we'll get and keep people, please ask questions here and debate those answers in separate threads. I hope that DeCalmont and Broadway will continue to aggressively moderate this thread as is the practice in the Ask Duke Paul and Ask the Dread Lord areas.

[Henrik of Havn]

Isabella,

Yes, Nora was a fencer who wanted to fight with us guys. I was one of the few , as Paul says, who was willing to hit a lady, but only in a fair fighting manner. Nora was smaller than I, perhaps 5 foot 5 inches tall and 130 pounds to my 6 feet, 180 pounds. When I hit Nora, it was to her left upper ribs under her raised shield. I remember that when I saw the opening and swung for it I pulled my blow because I didn't want to hurt her. Her immediate response was a complaint that it hurt. Well of course it hurt. Any blow from a rattan stick to such a sensitive spot covered by only a layer of clothing would hurt. Nora hadn't had much if any rattan combat experience, as far as I know, and so hadn't felt how hard blows were or how much they could hurt. I think many guys would have reacted the same under those circumstances. I think she was just surprised more than she was really hurt or discouridged from fighting, by that encounter. In any case she didn't ask to fight any more and stopped attending tournaments not long after.

There were no other ladies around who asked to fight, that I know of, then, though there may have been some ( like Trude) who privately were interested in doing so and may even have tried it in private. In any event the concept of letting ladies fight was discussed by us fighters and as mentioned some guys thought it unchivalrous to strike a lady under any circumference and refused to do so, period.

I think that the real isue here, which we didn't understand , was that most fighters didn't have good armor to prevent injuries. If a lady had learned to fight and knew the consequences and presented herself in a suit of good protective armor, so that rib shots (or any other blow) of any strength wouldn't break bones or cause unreasonable levels of pain or injury, then most guys would have met them in combat without hesitation. But a lady with only her clothing and a fencing mask to protect her was just too much of a fragile image, even if she had a shield and weapon in hand, for most guys , in an era when chivalry concepts were still hazy and perhaps were being overemphasized as a result.

When Trudy and another knight, Marry of Uffington, the first Lady knight in The West, fought, they had steel armor to protect them, as most do today. They also knew exactly what they were doing since they practiced extensively before first entering the eric.

Henrik

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




I went and read through the first couple of years already and there is an interesting little bit about a woman that went out to fight and was complaining about getting hit to hard, and it set women back fighting a few years.

[Henrik of Havn]

Vitus,

Well of course we had no hand protection in the beginning other than leather gloves of the garden variety. So any blow which hit the hand or fingers was not only painful but potentially could cause broken bones. The aluminum blades that we experimented with were perhaps the most painful to be hit by since their edges were so narrow and concentrated the force on a very narrow spot. If we'd have had good armor, then that wouldn't have mattered so much. When we changed to rattan the blows felt softer since it was both wider and flexed more than any other blades we had tried . The level of pain was tolerable, especially since we didn't hit as hard as today. We were still in an experimental stage of combat development and blows usually were slower and less hard because no one was a jock who wanted to hurt others. Since rattan was so tough it was possible to shave a blade down to 3/4 of an inch in diameter and make it very light and whippy. It would just flex when it struck and hardly hurt at all - again on top of clothing being all that was worn.

Keep in mind that face protection was not regulated and fencing masks OR EQUIVALENT was the custom, before maximum allowed eye openings began to be specified, years later. So a small diameter ratten blade was allowed without much thought.

As for basket hilts, my hand getting broken was the beginnning. At a private practice session I tried to parry a blow with a split rattan cross guard and missed and got my knuckles smashed. After getting the cast off I made the first basket hilt, since I didn't know how to make a steel gauntlet. I cut a 6 inch length of 1 and 3/8 inch diameter thin wall steel conduit pipe. I put it in a vice and squeesed it into an oval crossection to make the handle from. I welded on five "c" shaped 1/4 inch steel rods to each end on the underside,for knuckle bows, then welded 1/8 inch rods cross wise to make the basket. I extended the front cross bars up over the front of the top for added wrist protection. Then I shaped a length of rattan into a blade shape and shaved the tang to fit inside the oval pipe handle. I took a 2 pound spherical lead sinker and drilled a hole thru it and lag screwed it into the back end of the tang so it wouldn't slide out the front of the handle.

Now I had a sword that protected my hand and if the blade broke, I could change it for a new one by simlply unscrewing the pommel , sliding out the old tang and sliding in the new and screwing the pommel back on. This was not only more protective but it saved the time to make a new split rattan cross guard ( which sometimes broke off a sword while in use) and usually was shaped and glued and cord bound for strength, taking a lot of time and effort - for each blade one used. A basket could be easily used over and over again.

I wrote a "how to make one" article for TI # 9 and afterward other people began making basket hilts too. Designs changed over the years, but combat became much more aggressive after they began to be used since the hand was no longer in danger of a missed crossguard parry. Baskets didn't need well articulated gauntlets to be effective and could be lighter in weight than a gauntlet as well. They are easy to make and usually cost less than gauntlets, so they were adopted by many fighters - even though they are late in historical period, they are practical and save hands from injury.

Henrik

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



How much did basket hilts transform the way people wielded their swords? I have seen old footage of the guys using crossguards made of split rattan and their hands don't drift anywhere near the opponents blade.
-Vitus

[Henrik of Havn]

Jofthepeace,

Yes we did fight any way that seemed useful - at first. If a fighter went down on the ground and was still able to defend and attack from that position, the conmbat continued. If not it was halted till the fighter was ready to continue. The tradition of fighting from the knees was part of that philosophy since both attack and defense are not hindered unreasonably. Niether might it be from a more prone posture in some cases. I remember one fight I had back then - albite at a practice session - where I ended up flat on my back and my opponant was stradling me and swung an axe at my head which I was able to catch the haft of in my left hand and block the blow. I never felt he was acting unchivalrously doing that. I remember another combat in the lists, where my opponant was attacking me with a double handed axe and I dropped my weapon and grabbed the axe haft in defense. We each tried to wrest the haft from each other for a time and then I began a manouver intended to cast him to the ground, but decided in mid move that he, being twice my age or older, might get injured, to simply fall on my back and put my feet to his chest and tug on the haft to disarm him. It ended up looking really silly , but It worked. A few years later in a Tournament, although it was uncommon to grapple by then, my opponant and I agreed to grapple during our combat - as was the current fashion - and when we began doing so the Earl Mashall called the combat to a halt and declared it was unchivalrous to do so and that was the end of it - anywhere.

Henrik

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
And there was wrastlin' too! Did ja see that?!?

[Henrik of Havn]

Aaron,

I wish all the information that we have today were available back then. The technology as well as the historical information such as the fight manuals, archaeological discoveries, cultural knowledge, arts and crafts, costuming,food, etc as well as modern tools and methods for producing weapons armor clothing, furnishings, pavillions, etc.

It's been a very long time coming.

Henrik

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1. If you could change one thing about that first year, what would it be?

[Jofthepeace]

New questions for the founders.

When did thrusting come into play in fighting? Did this become a big game changer?

Also, was their a point when you guys realized this (the SCA) had grown beyond what you ever thought it would be? What were your thoughts when you realized this?

Thanks.

[Henrik of Havn]

Jofthepeace,

I mostly stopped fighting in competative Tournaments and wars in the later 1980's. After that I may have fought in as many as a dozen or so , spread over the years till now. So I really missed the change in combat that the introduction of thrusting made. I don't know exactly when it was introduced though it seems to have been 10 or so years back. Others who were more active then should be better able to answer your question. For me it was simply another defense of mine that I found was inadequate when I got lkilled by one, when I did meet it in combat. Since then I've made a couple of swords with thrusting tips on them, but I don't recall if I've used them yet. I will sometime, I'm sure.

As far as realizations of what the SCA has become is concerned, yes there were many times. One was when I saw Monty Python and the Holy Grail for the first time, and then going to Pennsic No7 and seeing two armies facing each other, that each numbered even more. Another was when standing on top of the huge hay bale pile at Estrella Mountain Park and watching three armies numbering over 1100 fighters each, fighting each other, and realizing not a freon can helmet was in sight, but a beautiful and acurate replica full plate suit of shining Maximillian armor, was! And yet another time was when seeing the vast expanse of encampments at Pennsic, many with beautiful pavillions of all shapes , colors and sizes, scattered all over fields that I had once fought on when empty, some thirty years previously at Pensic #7.

Going to Pennsic, TYC, TFYC, 3YC, Lillies War, RUM, Sport of Kings, GWW, W/ATW and other events over the past 45 years has always impressed me with the wonder of our organization and where it has taken us. When I first set foot on this path, I wasn't expecting it to lead anywhere. As I advanced down it, it just kept ahead of me with each step and still does. Where it has lead is amasing, but I never expected it to do so. I'm just very glad it has lead this far and await to see where else it will take me.

Henrik

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


When did thrusting come into play in fighting? Did this become a big game changer?

Also, was their a point when you guys realized this (the SCA) had grown beyond what you ever thought it would be? What were your thoughts when you realized this?

[Jofthepeace]

Awesome answer Sir, thank you!

[Lucian Ro]

Jofthepeace,

I mostly stopped fighting in competative Tournaments and wars in the later 1980's. After that I may have fought in as many as a dozen or so , spread over the years till now. So I really missed the change in combat that the introduction of thrusting made. I don't know exactly when it was introduced though it seems to have been 10 or so years back. Others who were more active then should be better able to answer your question. For me it was simply another defense of mine that I found was inadequate when I got lkilled by one, when I did meet it in combat. Since then I've made a couple of swords with thrusting tips on them, but I don't recall if I've used them yet. I will sometime, I'm sure.

As far as realizations of what the SCA has become is concerned, yes there were many times. One was when I saw Monty Python and the Holy Grail for the first time, and then going to Pennsic No7 and seeing two armies facing each other, that each numbered even more. Another was when standing on top of the huge hay bale pile at Estrella Mountain Park and watching three armies numbering over 1100 fighters each, fighting each other, and realizing not a freon can helmet was in sight, but a beautiful and acurate replica full plate suit of shining Maximillian armor, was! And yet another time was when seeing the vast expanse of encampments at Pennsic, many with beautiful pavillions of all shapes , colors and sizes, scattered all over fields that I had once fought on when empty, some thirty years previously at Pensic #7.

Going to Pennsic, TYC, TFYC, 3YC, Lillies War, RUM, Sport of Kings, GWW, W/ATW and other events over the past 45 years has always impressed me with the wonder of our organization and where it has taken us. When I first set foot on this path, I wasn't expecting it to lead anywhere. As I advanced down it, it just kept ahead of me with each step and still does. Where it has lead is amasing, but I never expected it to do so. I'm just very glad it has lead this far and await to see where else it will take me.

Henrik

I'd like to meet you just to shake your hand; you sound like a hell of a person, Henrik.

[Aaron]

Aaron,

I wish all the information that we have today were available back then. The technology as well as the historical information such as the fight manuals, archaeological discoveries, cultural knowledge, arts and crafts, costuming,food, etc as well as modern tools and methods for producing weapons armor clothing, furnishings, pavillions, etc.

It's been a very long time coming.

Henrik

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1. If you could change one thing about that first year, what would it be?

OK, how about a follow-on question?

IF you had ALL that information (you know EVERYTHING you know now) and were back in those first years of the SCA, what would you change? What wouldn't you change? And "why" to both questions.

With thanks,

-Aaron

[Henrik of Havn]

Aaron,


Change - weapons & shields to fight with, clothing and armor to wear, - because it would be more realistic and look better which adds to the ambiance of a non modern activity. The purpose ( in my mind) was to remove the modern and enter the historic or fantasy quality of another time - at least for some of us. It was a way of 'tripping" without the use of chemical stimulants to do so and so for me at least was not only legal and "safe" but was controlable, where I wasn't subject to having to endure any more than I chose to endure and wasn't dependent on being forced to allow a chemical reaction to take it's unknown time and course. Besides it was like playing "knights in shining armor " as a child, only as an adult with the respect and fairness a child may desire but usually is unable to achieve.

Don't change - The novelty of the event, the perhaps over emphasis of "grown up" acceptance of us "playing" at being "Knights in shining armor" ( which I felt was intended to save face for some people there, who may not have been willing to admit we were "playing" as children , but with grownup attitudes). Come on now, wouldn't your average stockbroker , even today, think a bunch of adults holding a knighting ceremony in someone's back yard while wearing costumes and armor were being a bit childish? I think so. Certainly they wouod have 45 years ago.

In fact a story written by one of our founding group who was there at the first tournament and was one of the first Board members, Don Studebaker, AKA Jon Declese, titled "The Tiajuana Vikings" had as it's primary premis that modern society ( in the mid 1960's) was so ingrained with modern grownup attitudes, that a bunch of medievally dressed people walking down the street, would be virtually invisible ( because no one in their right mind would do such a childish and silly thing and so it'd be incomprehensible to do so) to everyone else, and they could do anything they liked as a result. Just try looking at reruns of old 60's TV shows like "I Dream of Jeanie" or "Bewitched" and see how "straight" adult attitudes were depicted back then. The stuff we did back then was outrageous to many people who lived up-tight lives by comparison.

Don't change the stress on being honorable and chivalrous , that began at the very beginning! This more than anthing else is why I've stayed a member for 45 years. The sports,scholarship, creativity, comradery, etc. is available elsewhere, but the honor unfortunately seems lacking there too often while it isn't lacking, mostly, in the SCA.

Don't change the sporting development of our combat. It is unique and filled the vacuum that only now WMA has started to enter.

Henrik

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Your Grace Henrik-
When I asked about basket hilts I was wondering about the concept of blocking with the basket (as opposed to keeping the crossguard out of the way of blades), and whether that changed things among the early fighting population.
-Vitus

[Henrik of Havn]

Vitus,

Sorry I didn't make it more clear in the last paragraph of my reply. By more aggressive combat, I meant that yes the basket was used much more confidently as a blocking instrument than cross guards could ever have been. So hanging back to really protect a vulnerable hand was no longer a concern and so physically wading into a fight was easy to do, even without any armor other than a helmet and leather gloves. The rest of the body, except for the outlawed target areas ( joints mostly ) could take direct strikes of a sword blade and only get bruised - usually. So pain tolerance was then more of a limiting factor than anything else in how aggressive a fighter chose to be. This allowed fighters with high pain tolerances to fight very aggressively without body protection, and their combat styles developed accordingly.

In my own case I used the basket hilts, effectively as miniature bucklers and never really tried to catch an opponant's blade on any particular part of it, even though my later baskets were direct copies of late 1500's hilts and had "S" curved quillions oriented horizontally , in an open Katzbalger style, which actually could trap even a fat rattan blade, if used for that purpose. I think most people do the same and simply block blows with any part of their baskets, more like a buckler than anything else. They work extremely well that way!

Henrik

[Count Johnathan]

As for basket hilts, my hand getting broken was the beginnning. At a private practice session I tried to parry a blow with a split rattan cross guard and missed and got my knuckles smashed. After getting the cast off I made the first basket hilt...

Henrik, do you recall what year that was?

Thanks.

[Henrik of Havn]

Johnathan,

I had not remembered in detail when I first used a basket hilt, but in reading through TI #9 , where my article is describing how to make basket hilts ( on pages 15 through 19), I found in an article on general sword construction details by Tom Conroy aka Thumas O'Conaire (later on in that same issue of TI), a paragraph where he states on pages 52&53 "... At the Baycon Tourney, Duke Henrik came with steel baskethilts on his swords. They were built up on a piece of steel tubing that served as the grip, the blade being set in and held in place by the pommel in the same manner as a fencing sword. My personal feeling is that , though they are in period by perhaps fifteen years, they are contrary to the effort to reproduce medieval Tourneys; on the other hand , they are very successful in doing their job, which is to protect the hand. All in all, their use or disuse by any particular person is a matter of his own preference. However, it is worth pointing out that the basket hilted sword was usually single edged..."

That Baycon Tourney occurred at, the 26th World Science Fiction Convention, held in Oakland CA. on September 2, 1968 ( AS III). I had my left hand in a cast strapped to the back of my shield, when I fought then. Tournaments Illuminated Issue Number 9 was published some time after that date in late 1968. So my illustrated instructions for making basket hilts wouldn't have been available to anyone till then.

Henrik

[DukeAvery]

Noble Companions

Thank you for your part in establishing this great adventure. I have greatly enjoyed the experience, and much good as come of it in my personal life.

My question would be, is there any further advice you would care to give those who aspire to reign?

Regards

Avery

[Count Johnathan]

That Baycon Tourney occurred at, the 26th World Science Fiction Convention, held in Oakland CA. on September 2, 1968 ( AS III). I had my left hand in a cast strapped to the back of my shield, when I fought then. Tournaments Illuminated Issue Number 9 was published some time after that date in late 1968. So my illustrated instructions for making basket hilts wouldn't have been available to anyone till then.

Henrik

So not a dramatic interruption to the fighting since that was still relatively early. Did anyone complain when you were suddenly able to block with your hand without consequence or were people just not that uptight at the time?

Thanks.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Thanks, John.

[Count Johnathan]

I assumed that was what you were getting at Vitus.

I know Basket hilts weren't a common item until mid to late 70s even early 80s in some places.

[Peikko]

This is truly an epic thread.

[Henrik of Havn]

Avery,

In my opinion a monarch reigns solely to serve the populace. He/she must always put the populace's interests before one's own. Using the power of the office to benefit oneself or one's friends is a misuse of that privilage and should never be done. It may be unfortunate that friends, family or household suffers ( by going unrecognised in some way by the Office, for their own worthy efforts) during a reign as a result, but in order to not seem to be guilty of some form of nepotism , a monarch must not favor "their own" and should consider that likelyhood and it's effects, before seeking to win in the lists. Beyond that, I think it's all been said elsewhere.

Henrik

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


My question would be, is there any further advice you would care to give those who aspire to reign?

[Henrik of Havn]

Johnathan,

No to both. No complaints.

What complaints I do remember getting in the first few years, was for wearing my 40 pound hauberk during most of a Tournament and then taking it off and fighting without it for the last few combats and so supposidly having the advantage of not being weighted down by the mail then , and winning. Of course they never had any heavy armor on all day and so never got as tired as I was when I removed my hauberk, nor were they slowed down as much as I was when they fought against me when I had it on.

Henrik

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Did anyone complain when you were suddenly able to block with your hand without consequence or were people just not that uptight at the time?

[Ken Mondschein]

Have you read Michael Cramer's Medieval Fantasy as Performance?

[Henrik of Havn]

Ken,

No I havn't.

Henrik

[Ser.Lawrence]

Founders
What made you choose rattan was there other ideas for blades

[Konstantin the Red]

Absolutely nothing else worked as well, either then or now. Wood breaks into sharp splinters; rattan breaks square or brooms into loose fibers. Very hard wood not only broke sharp, but caved armor in. UHMW HDPE plastic rod lands on you like a deadblow hammer rather than the springy impact of rattan and caves in helms, though it sees some favor as a pells-only practice implement to conserve rattan for live targets. And that plastic rod can break too. If I remember right, it's more expensive per running foot than rattan of legal size. Long ago now, also, they tried 3/4" fiberglass golf flag pole as a core for two pieces of CPVC irrigation pipe telescoped together. This was lightweight, so fast, and it hit well enough, but its failure-mode was thought overly risky -- the outer pipe would break at about the center of percussion and fly across the field like a bullet. It slowed quickly from air drag, but within ten feet... they thought it over and said 'No.'

Black plastic shrink-tube laid over a rattan stave and heated down was more successful, armoring the rattan against shocks and over-bending. Some quarters were always very suspicious of it, though, and were less willing to get hit with it. There was some idea it hit heavier, didn't store any impact energy into an elastic rebound; something like that. Whether this did anything so much for yellow, unpeeled rattan with its rind on is something I never found out. See, first we fought with peeled rattan; then we found unpeeled rattan, lumps and all, was sturdier.

SCA Cut & Thrust and Rapier do use steel -- in thrusting, rather than clouting an opponent with a baton that moves fast enough to fly invisibly.