Plastic vs. Nothing

[Bo Harris]

I wanted to address the issue of plastic armor being used instead of inadequate or no armor. There are certain historical models that wouldn't be wearing the correct appropriate defense for our game. This is where even the strictest make accommodations for safety. Bargrills are the most obvious of these inaccuracies. Clamshell gauntlets are high on the list as well. I think a lot of people would rather wear a set of plastic lamellar under their mail, or plastic splints shoved here-or-there than switch personas. The whole plastic argument goes back and forth all the time, but I wanted to throw this thought into the mix... If you want to dress like an early 13th century crusader and fight SCA heavy for example, than you have to come to some sort of compromise on body and hand protection. This is where plastic best comes into play in my opinion.
Are there any other ideas on protecting the body without compromising historicity besides having a persona that would actually wear enough armor?

[MJBlazek]

For those periods where the armor would not protect in our version of fighting hidden Plastic is fine. The key word is hidden! I have a very high suspension of disbelief meter. I don't care what you have on that I can't see. I can't see your jock strap, but I don't go looking for it! Pretty much, if I can't see it, it doesn't exsist.

[Konstantin the Red]

If you can't see it on your opponent, it's certainly not going to affect your fighting him!

Plastic hidden within or beneath a long gambeson -- that can cover a multitude of skins, er, sins...

An SCA-required set of kidney plates worn beneath a gamby, why not? Plastic splints about the forearm and reinforcing a gamboised cuisse, why not? Plastic reinforcement about the point of the shoulder if you'd rather not spend the money or the time on a set of spauds?

If you've got the plastic, there's brigandine and CoP, and the artfully colored plastics have served for lamellar, right?

With gauntlets, some early people decide to narrow the anachronism, since they can't eliminate it entirely, by getting Wisby-style multiplate & rivet-studded gauntlets in dark colors. This is at least esteemed as rather stylish. YMMV.

The safety gorget is anachronistic for many harnesses, both early- and mid-period. Being so, its construction would hardly matter, so long as it is effective. It is among the most readily concealable of anachro-gear.

Another narrow anachronism for the mail-harness boys is the use of a cuirie over the hauberk. It is very easy to arrive at the "or-equivalent" SCA standard for kidney protection using this, slipping in a little extra, etcetera. And for at least the 13th-c. personae, a cuirie wouldn't be anachronistic at all.

They're definitely not looking at Lexan visors for SCA-modded conicals! Not even tinted dark!

I suppose I am taking the same view of plastic parts that I do of butted mail: there are certain uses where either one shines at its best, and that it is not wrong to use them so.

[Tomburr]

What MJ said. It's fine if it's hidden or well-covered.

Note: covering the plastic means doing a decent job. Throwing a bedsheet tabard over plastic is NOT an improvement over bare plastic. It conceals nothing.

[Bo Harris]

You gentlemen all echo my thoughts on this. Thanks for your responses. Not that I imagine this sentiment will bridge the gap on the AA, I hope that others who read this understand it's not all black and white, even for the authenticity nuts in some of us.

[Albrechtthesilent]

Glue or water hardened leather can fill the same gaps nicely. Yes, it's still composing an anachronistic armour supplement to meet our rules. Yes, in the purist's pursuit it should still be disguised or covered (well... as pointed out above).
It takes a little more effort. It takes more bank for materials. I submit to the idea that this should be the next step after using plastic to perfect the piece you want (pattern and fit).
My hang-up with plastic is that it's rarely treated so. People tend to enlist it and not replace it. This is less bothering to me when it is covered or disguised as stated. But, the benefit of using leather is that it can be done with little or no investment of tools. In fact if you made the plastic pieces, you should have most of the tools you need. So, what's holding people back from taking that step?

Albrecht

[Maire O Halowrane]

Glue or water hardened leather can fill the same gaps nicely. Yes, it's still composing an anachronistic armour supplement to meet our rules. Yes, in the purist's pursuit it should still be disguised or covered (well... as pointed out above).
It takes a little more effort. It takes more bank for materials. I submit to the idea that this should be the next step after using plastic to perfect the piece you want (pattern and fit).
My hang-up with plastic is that it's rarely treated so. People tend to enlist it and not replace it. This is less bothering to me when it is covered or disguised as stated. But, the benefit of using leather is that it can be done with little or no investment of tools. In fact if you made the plastic pieces, you should have most of the tools you need. So, what's holding people back from taking that step?

Albrecht

For many it's the COST of leather. And in todays economy, many will not spend the extra to make the change right now. And if they screw up in cutting the leather .... that can end up costing alot more. Plastic pickle barrels can be FREE when you get them at recycle centers or from car washes. So, most will stick to plastic for a while before they change to leather or steel. Not to mention, some will experiment with plastic and different variations on their armour several times over before they settle on exactly what they want and feel comfortable in.. Then later they will get/make what they want in leather or steel.

I never saw an issue with those who use plastic... AS LONG AS IT'S COVERED WELL or not obviously plastic looking.

Just my 2 cents.

[Swete]

Glue or water hardened leather can fill the same gaps nicely. Yes, it's still composing an anachronistic armour supplement to meet our rules. Yes, in the purist's pursuit it should still be disguised or covered (well... as pointed out above).
It takes a little more effort. It takes more bank for materials. I submit to the idea that this should be the next step after using plastic to perfect the piece you want (pattern and fit).
My hang-up with plastic is that it's rarely treated so. People tend to enlist it and not replace it. This is less bothering to me when it is covered or disguised as stated. But, the benefit of using leather is that it can be done with little or no investment of tools. In fact if you made the plastic pieces, you should have most of the tools you need. So, what's holding people back from taking that step?

Albrecht

The protective quality of the two is the main reason for me and many others. I quit fighting in a hidden leather rig after I got tired of pissing blood after particularly rigorous practices and switched to the far more protective plastic. Heck, since it is hidden, the looks and historical value of the rig didn't matter anyway, just how confident I am that it will protect me. And it does. That is the most important thing to consider. (and yes I hide the plastic very well.) ;p

[Bo Harris]

Swete, were you actually urinating blood or are you exaggerating to make your point? If the former, than who let you fight in that gear, and why didn't you cease fighting until your armor was safe?
Also, is this example an inherent case of the quality/safety of plastic over leather, or just leather done incorrectly/inappropriately? If more people have faced this kind of abuse, I'd like to know before making suggestions one way or another. Thank you.

[Albrechtthesilent]

I'd have to say that the leather either wasn't hardened, or it was hardened by someone extremely incompetent.
Leather hardened properly is comparable to plastic in performance and weight.

[Grimbah]

Even Jordan at Dark Victory Armor expects one to cover it, make an effort at customizing for period. Even I, a plastic aficionado... expects it! Just be kind... and helpful...

[Konstantin the Red]

You gentlemen all echo my thoughts on this. Thanks . . . I hope that others who read this understand it's not all black and white, even for the authenticity nuts in some of us.

Well, it's just good for us to tighten our authenticity nut once in a while.

Rrrrnghh! Rrgh! puff puff

[Swete]

Swete, were you actually urinating blood or are you exaggerating to make your point? If the former, than who let you fight in that gear, and why didn't you cease fighting until your armor was safe?
Also, is this example an inherent case of the quality/safety of plastic over leather, or just leather done incorrectly/inappropriately? If more people have faced this kind of abuse, I'd like to know before making suggestions one way or another. Thank you.

I only urinated blood twice...the second time was the last time I ever fought in leather torso armour, but I did get plenty of nasty bruises that kept me from fighting for a week. It was actually a leather lorica segmenta, so there was plenty of overlap, but it had almost no padding. Plenty of fighters from around here use leather and padding, or just a kidney belt, but I realized I was not meant to be one of them just as soon as the pain started becoming unbearable.
I was also a newb with an 18 inch round so I got hit A LOT in the torso.

[Bo Harris]

Thank you for the clarification. It pains me to hear a story like that, and I do know a few guys who fight in something similar to leather lorica (and softer leather at that, if it's anything like the guys I know). They move a lot faster than I do though, so I see your point about not for newcomers. Glad you switched to hidden plastic then, for your own health if nothing else.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

If I can't see it, I will never know.

[Sigismund von Helfenstein]

If I can't see it, I will know anyway. Part of my chivalry involves carefully inspecting my opponent's kit externally and internally for period authenticity. If I discover so much as a single machine stitch, my opponent is not worth my time. I do an "ocular pat-down" to assess the worthiness of all opponents.

No but seriously, if nobody can see the plastic, how would they ever know you even had it on? I use splinted leather with plastic internal splints, and I get compliments on it because, whatever the materials, it looks period.