Lacing through rings

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Looking for something else in my Hans Memling book, I found a few images that I'd wanted to find for this subject. He painted a number of picture of people that had garments that used rings to lace through. This picture of Antoine, the Grand Bastard of Burgundy is a good example. Wiki says that it is attributed to Hans Memling, 1467–70, but my book says it is anonymous, after the style of Memling.


Large image, and it is really obvious when enlarged.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... emling.jpg

Rogier van der Weyden's Mary Magdalene(1450) is another example.



Here is a larger version:
http://www.canvasreplicas.com/images/Ma ... Weyden.jpg

So how early or late (and where, of course) can we justify lacing through rings, exposed or otherwise?

[Dan Howard]

One example is the Kalithea greaves. They have exposed rings for lacing them to the leg so the technique dates back to the end of the Bronze Age at least.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Okay, smartass.

Let's limit this to clothing.

[Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar]

There was woss'erface y'know the pale one with the plucked forehead and brows and with one perfectly hemisherical 'funbag' seemingly attached to her collarbone next to her armpit out on show.....Mistress to someone important or French...Alice.....Agnes....BuggeredifIcanremember. But she was mid to late 15thC too.

[Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar]

SOREL! Agnes Sorel that's her. One of her posing as BVM c.1450 by Forquet wearing a ring laced frock.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

BuggeredifIcanremember

Well, you remembered...

[Dan Howard]

I preferred "woss'erface y'know"

[Destichado]

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/agnes-sorel

Which one? I can't find an image of either one large enough to tell they are ring laced.

[Tailoress]

I don't believe the Agnes Sorel portrait shows such a thing; it shows what we tend to think of as "hidden" or "invisible" lacing, and is often cited as an example of those. But rings? Not necessarily, though though that's certainly a viable theory -- the rings could be sewn on the inside.

[Karen Larsdatter]

So how early or late (and where, of course) can we justify lacing through rings, exposed or otherwise?

How late? I've seen people in the SCA do them up through the early part of the 21st century.

Some other examples:

• Portrait bust of a lady, c. 1460-1470
• Ginevra de' Benci, c. 1474/1478
• Costanza Caetani, c. 1480-1490
• Saint Mary Magdalene, c. 1490-1494
• Portrait of a Young Woman, c. 1508
• Lucrezia Tornabuoni

[Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar]

Got a hooooge version of this in a French art book and it looks, to me at least, like rings, by the way the lacing 'sits' and down to the wee stress creases where they (the rings)look to be anchored inside her bodice (Oooo Er Matron..........that prob'ly doesn't mean much outside the UK...Carry On film ref there....back in yer box Digby )




Here's a wiki version that's 1,004 × 1,113pixels
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... adonna.jpg
and another biggy by'ere
http://andytoad.files.wordpress.com/201 ... -1450.jpeg

But then that boob isn't erm 'natural', I mean as a chap I've seen my share of.......this isn't going well is it?
What I'm trying to say is it's possibly all an idealised fantasy (Wipe clean gesso anyone) so mebbe the cossie is 'made up' too....which means I've wasted everyones time...... off to scourge myself as penance...Nurse! 50 lashes with the thick rhubarb stick.

[Jon Terris]

Sigh....... Someone break out the dried frog pills for Sir Digby!

[Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar]

HA! I'm sane and I have a Release Document er, Certificate to prove it.

[Destichado]

But then that boob isn't erm 'natural', I mean as a chap I've seen my share of.......this isn't going well is it?
What I'm trying to say is it's possibly all an idealised fantasy (Wipe clean gesso anyone) so mebbe the cossie is 'made up' too....which means I've wasted everyones time...... off to scourge myself as penance...Nurse! 50 lashes with the thick rhubarb stick.

This is also Agnes Sorel, playing herself. Compare and contrast.

They are not substantially different. So either one of the paintings was based directly off of the other physical painting, OR Agnes was just built like that.

[Charlotte J]

The Fouquet Madonna has rings. We saw her in Antwerp, and I have a hi-res photo I'm attempting to upload to my site, but failing on. I'll try again tomorrow.

From my experience with rings, you have to stitch them almost all the way around, or the fabric gapes. I did a side laced hidden ring kirtle, and in order to get good support with it, the rings have to be very close together. Your lace is pretty much running vertically, and it doesn't hold real well.

I'd love to see rings dated earlier. I would like to use rings for my 1410s gown, but without better evidence, can't get away with it.

[Charlotte J]

Best I can do right now until I figure out what's up with my other gallery:

Fouquet Madonna, close up, taken by me

[Tailoress]

That's the closest I've ever seen! And yeah, you can totally see the rings! Thanks for sharing that, Char.

[Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar]

And room for a third breast between the other two...'tent natural I tells'eee.




I did a simplified version of the frock for The Mem Sahib some years back and used flat brass washers from an Ironmongers(hardware store) for the lacing rings, stitching over 2/3rds of the ring and sewing through the lining and interlining of the bodice. The outer was tacked to the interlining during construction.
I ran an emery cloth over the edges of each washer to take off any burrs or swarf to lessen the chance of them cutting the thread or wearing the lacing cord.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

'tent natural I tells'eee.

Don't be a hater.

[Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar]

Not hating just thinking about the neck ache from switching between the......ooops did I type that out loud.