Polypro is now SCA legal

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

BdeB,

did you fight outdoors? I regularly fight outdoors even in the winter here. It gets a bit colder in Sweden, Finland and even Germany compared to anywhere in Atlantia.

regards
ThorvaldR

[BdeB]

Yes we fought outdoors and indoor, subject the material to pretty rapid temp changes. No issues. I think your theory makes sense as to why you don't wish to try the material, but my experience doesn't jive with the poly shattering from cold or whatever.

[uwhguy]

I am a Polypro convert. I hated it at first, but at the suggestion of Brother Amos de Pious, I have cut it to 2-3 inches shorter than the length of my 1.5inch rattan swords, and it feels exactly the same. I use it for practice only.

[Count Johnathan]

My intent is to cut the new one down to 34" which will significantly reduce the amount of "wobble" that the plastic sticks have. Now if I can just keep it from breaking which is the real point of this anyway right? LOL We shall see...

[Diglach Mac Cein]

There are many different types of polypropylene out there. Looking at the link someone posted at McMaster Carr, I ran it past a couple of people I work with who do material testing.

One reason some rods may break easier than others, depending on which TYPE of Polypro you are talking about - the three main types are homopolymer, random copolymer, and block copolymer. The way the molecules are arranged is the difference - you want a homopolymer, with the molecules arranged along the length. The other two types are more likely to break. HOWEVER, the trade off is the homopolymer will be "greasier," and more prone to deformation, especially at higher temperatures. The Melt Flow (the point where it begins to deform) of polypro can range from 80 to 160 degrees. Again, the higher the Melt Flow, the less flexible the material. Usually Ethylene-propylene rubber (EPDM) is added to improve low temperature impact strength.

Also, Polypro is prone to UV breakdown. Additives such as carbon black are usually added to help protect against this. If you see crases (flaking), cracks, or discoloration, this is degradation of the material.

I'm betting the polypro sold by McMaster Carr isn't intended to be used as a club - so there may very well be varience in the material that is completely acceptable - except for what we use it for.


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[Riese Von Landsee]

So out of curiosity if the supply of rattan is running out with whats available being less quality with more cracks, and our only other option is polypro which doesnt seem to take kindly to being wacked on....where does that leave heavy fighting in the sca down the road?

[benz72]

So out of curiosity if the supply of rattan is running out with whats available being less quality with more cracks, and our only other option is polypro which doesnt seem to take kindly to being wacked on....where does that leave heavy fighting in the sca down the road?

Plants grow in the US. How about creating a domestic crop?

[Knokes Lyonn]

So, since we now know that Polypro rods explode when you hit something with them... how are they legal at all?

[BdeB]

So, since we now know that Polypro rods explode when you hit something with them... how are they legal at all?

Rattan explodes when you hit something with it too!

I'm just lucky that I am such a delicate flower of knighthood. I've tried and tried to break mine and have failed. Maybe I should turn in my belt....

[Knokes Lyonn]

Thats all well and good. But, now that we know they are unstable, and explode into life threatening shrapnel at the drop of a hat, shouldn't we ban these polypro rods?

I'm just lucky that I am such a delicate flower of knighthood. I've tried and tried to break mine and have failed. Maybe I should turn in my belt....

[BdeB]

You funny.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

The problem (as it seems to me) isn't that polypro "explodes". It is that the rods we are experimenting with vary in two rather important factors for SCA combat - rigidity, and shearing. Problems that I beleive aren't a consideration for what these rods would be used for.

What we need is a material that mimics rattan in that it has fibers that run the length of the stick - but the fibers have to be arranged to mimic the flex and (to a degree) the "crush" of plant material. And it needs to not significantly change, mechanically or chemically, in the temperature ranges that SCA combat takes place in.


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[Knokes Lyonn]

You were supposed to say something about how well they keep their shape in cold weather...

You funny.

[Knokes Lyonn]

Exactly my thoughts... they explode, so unsafe. Thanks for clearing it up for me.

The problem (as it seems to me) isn't that polypro "explodes". It is that the rods we are experimenting with vary in two rather important factors for SCA combat - rigidity, and shearing. Problems that I beleive aren't a consideration for what these rods would be used for.

What we need is a material that mimics rattan in that it has fibers that run the length of the stick - but the fibers have to be arranged to mimic the flex and (to a degree) the "crush" of plant material. And it needs to not significantly change, mechanically or chemically, in the temperature ranges that SCA combat takes place in.


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[BdeB]

...Also, I'd like a Pony.

Happy Birthday man!

The problem (as it seems to me) isn't that polypro "explodes". It is that the rods we are experimenting with vary in two rather important factors for SCA combat - rigidity, and shearing. Problems that I beleive aren't a consideration for what these rods would be used for.

What we need is a material that mimics rattan in that it has fibers that run the length of the stick - but the fibers have to be arranged to mimic the flex and (to a degree) the "crush" of plant material. And it needs to not significantly change, mechanically or chemically, in the temperature ranges that SCA combat takes place in.


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[Diglach Mac Cein]

With polypro, I think you would need it to be EDPM additive and extruded in a way to "line up" the molecules to mimic fibers - kind of like carbon fiber, or the sheets of polypro used to make bullet resistant materials - only go with one layer (linear fibers) and roll it into a rod.

And thanks!

[Knokes Lyonn]

Yeppers... that would definitely cure the issue everybody is having with these things exploding all the time.

With polypro, I think you would need it to be EDPM additive and extruded in a way to "line up" the molecules to mimic fibers - kind of like carbon fiber, or the sheets of polypro used to make bullet resistant materials - only go with one layer (linear fibers) and roll it into a rod.

And thanks!

[Baron Eirik]

So out of curiosity if the supply of rattan is running out with whats available being less quality with more cracks, and our only other option is polypro which doesnt seem to take kindly to being wacked on....where does that leave heavy fighting in the sca down the road?

It's not running out. It's costing a little more. They did this 25-30 years ago too. What affects the SCA supply more than this is the number of us willing to do bulk orders and sell it in the SCA. Now with internet sales and communication, the only real long-term effect for the individual fighter is the first price increase in almost a decade. I'm actually back to prices I was charging 8-9 years ago. I've talked with my importer, there will be no problem getting the 2 tons of rattan I want to order again for Pennsic. Something to remember is that sales of Rattan furniture is way down, both my importer and a furniture store owner I know have been griping about that for three years now. We are a SMALL portion of the rattan consumers in the US.

As for quality, just be careful when you're picking out your stick. And if I send one with a major flaw that I didn't catch, tell me and I'll send another. It happens occasionally. When I find them, I cut them down into the usable parts and sell the pieces. Not a big deal.

I've got no problem with polypro. But I think it will only ever be a small percentage of sticks that get used. Just my opinion.

[Knokes Lyonn]

Hell, I was just talking to Bryce on facebook and we figured out that one of his polypro swords actually had a shard fly off, go through his eye socket, and lodge in his brain... didn't even notice it. We figure thats what is the root cause of the headache he has right now.

[BdeB]

Hell, I was just talking to Bryce on facebook and we figured out that one of his polypro swords actually had a shard fly off, go through his eye socket, and lodge in his brain... didn't even notice it. We figure thats what is the root cause of the headache he has right now.

I am fairly certain the root cause of my headache now just changed his sca name away from Dante della Luna.

[PatternWeld]

Wouldn't a better solution be having this pressure extrusion molded into a kevlar sleeve?

Oh wait... our economy drove most custom plastics manufacturers overseas.

[Corby de la Flamme]

Here's a link to a small gallery of the rod I've been using for two years.



I got hit with this last night.

[Knokes Lyonn]

Corby, what did you use to glue it back together so nicely after it shattered into a million dangerous pieces?

[Thomas MacFinn]

So, since we now know that Polypro rods explode when you hit something with them... how are they legal at all?

Knokes, if you are trying to make a point of any kind, I'm evidently too dense to understand it. Little kids have been fighting with broom handles for generations without getting killed. So what? That doesn't mean we should all switch to broom handles.

We want a material that is better (or at least as good as) rattan. It doesn't matter how "non-dangerous" the wrong stuff is if it is not good enough. There are multiple kinds of polypro, and one or more kind may be good enough. Some kinds are certainly not. We want to know which is which. Do you know?

Edit: Edited for clarity. Carpe cerevisiam.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Not really. I talk to plastics manufacturers every day. What we need is not a common-use plastic - unless some other industry needs it, we would have to supply the entire demand. And pay the R&D to find the right formulation and extrusion.


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Wouldn't a better solution be having this pressure extrusion molded into a kevlar sleeve?

Oh wait... our economy drove most custom plastics manufacturers overseas.

[Knokes Lyonn]

Sarcasm??? What are you talking about?

So, since we now know that Polypro rods explode when you hit something with them... how are they legal at all?

Knokes, if your sarcasm has a point, I'm evidently too dense to understand it. Little kids have been fighting with broom handles for generations without getting killed. So what? That doesn't mean we should all switch to broom handles.

We want a material that is better (or at least as good as) rattan. It doesn't matter how "non-dangerous" the wrong stuff is if it is not good enough. There are multiple kinds of polypro, and one or more kind may be good enough. Some kinds are certainly not. We want to know which is which. Do you know?

[olaf haraldson]

Polypro turned me into a newt.

[MJBlazek]

Polypro turned me into a newt.

A newt?

[PatternWeld]

Did he get better?

[Mark G.]

So out of curiosity if the supply of rattan is running out with whats available being less quality with more cracks, and our only other option is polypro which doesnt seem to take kindly to being wacked on....where does that leave heavy fighting in the sca down the road?

Steel.

[Valstarr Hawkwind]

So, there is more than one type of polypro rod with different reactions to being used in SCA combat context, it's not legal in some kingdoms, won't be legal at Pennsic this year, and costs much more than rattan does?

To each their own, I suppose.


Val

[B. Amos]

Here's a link to a small gallery of the rod I've been using for two years.



I got hit with this last night.

I feel like Corby really captured the essance and spirit of the rod in those photos, well done Sir!

[olaf haraldson]

I'm recovering.

Did he get better?

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Corby, what did you use to glue it back together so nicely after it shattered into a million dangerous pieces?

He wrapped it with a bunch of these.

[Count Johnathan]

I just got my new stick today from McMaster carr. It appears to be drastically different from the first one I got. It is not as heavy and it is a different color. It is more of a deep ivory and has no writing on it of any kind. It is more opaque as the other stick had almost a foggy water quality to it. It has the same wobble and feel when I strike the pell though. If it lasts for a year I will let you know LOL.