14th-Century French Church Chalices

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 12:07 pm

Hello all,

There are a number of pieces of kit that I'm still trying very hard to acquire, but one of the ones I most desire is a reproduction of a 14th-century or earlier French church chalice.

See, my persona is that of an English knight in France during the HYW, and there are several references to English knights using chalices for drinking vessels as there were so many spare ones after the French heroically abandoned them (grin) and since thre were fewer French needing communion after we ... errr ... visited them.

Does anyone know someone who can make something like this? I'd prefer silver gilt or at least plain silver, and it must be *strictly* authentic with *careful* documentation (although I don't require that it be made using medieval techniques) showing that it would have been in use in France *prior* to the last quarter of the century. I'm also not looking to spend bunches of money.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 12:39 pm

Please define "bunches of money". Such an item should be raised and the decoration is either chased, engraved, or applied, and probably has been enamaled. It probably won't be cheap and if it is it probably won't be accurate. Can you get any pics of what you think is a good chalice? What size does it need to be?

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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 2:09 pm

The TOSCANO catalog ( www.designtoscano.com ) offers 2 designs at the moment that might fit your requirements:

Canturbury Grand Chalice at $80.00

Santa Croce Italian Pewter Chalice at $100.00

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Tim Finkas<A HREF="http://finkas.home.netcom.com/Forgerie/Index.html" TARGET=_blank>
The Historical Forgerie</A>
Coming Soon: New name, New domain, New Prices, New products (?)

Ivar · Post by **Ivar** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 2:40 pm

Rys, try T.W. Moran at

www.livoniasmithery.com

He does accurate reproductions of everything from 3rd century pins to 18th century coffee pots. I'll also be merchanting with him at Pennsic this year.

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Ivar Bloodhand, Norsetrader Arms
http://www.valhallaleather.com *FINALLY updated!
Official distributor for Ron Simmons and "Rough From the Hammer"

"Using a spear or polearm doesn't mean you're afraid of getting hit- it just means we like to kill you before you have the chance to kill us"

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 3:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Captain Jamie:
Please define "bunches of money". Such an item should be raised and the decoration is either chased, engraved, or applied, and probably has been enamaled. It probably won't be cheap and if it is it probably won't be accurate. Can you get any pics of what you think is a good chalice? What size does it need to be? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will try to look for pics, but not all were decorated as you suggest; in fact, my research suggests that this early in history they were often quite plain. There is one in particular in the Cloisters that I'm thinking of here that has virtually no decoration at all (12th century).

And by "bunches of money" I mean I don't want to spend more than a few hundred dollars, and in this case, size doesn't really matter, although I'd like it to be able to hold a reasonable amount of wine (I don't want a thimble I have to refill after every sip).

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 3:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tim Finkas:
The TOSCANO catalog ( www.designtoscano.com ) offers 2 designs at the moment that might fit your requirements:

Canturbury Grand Chalice at $80.00

Santa Croce Italian Pewter Chalice at $100.00
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, one of those isn't a church chalice at all, and the second is a 17th-century Italian design.

It must be a church chalice that could have been used in France prior to the last quarter of the 14th century.

Thank you very much, however, for taking the time to look for these; I appreciate the effort.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 4:18 pm

Here are the two chalices from the Cloisters:

http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bc/hughk_1066/lst?&.dir=/My+Folder&.src=bc&.view=l&.last=1

I like both, although I prefer "chalice1"

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 5:10 pm

Then try Anshelm Arms. I know he has a couple that he and his Lady use---perhaps he made them himself, and he'd make you one!

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Tim Finkas<A HREF="http://finkas.home.netcom.com/Forgerie/Index.html" TARGET=_blank>
The Historical Forgerie</A>
Coming Soon: New name, New domain, New Prices, New products (?)

Gethin · Post by **Gethin** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 8:17 pm

Howdy,
Since you did not mention "in country" or not you might want to talk to these gents.

http://www.manningimperial.com/

Take the domestic and soft kit link. I have not done business with these people, but I have heard good things about them.

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All the best,
Rhys
"Art calls for complete mastery of techniques, developed by reflection within the soul"
Sifu Jun Fan Lee

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 11:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gethin:
 Howdy,
Since you did not mention "in country" or not you might want to talk to these gents.

http://www.manningimperial.com/

Take the domestic and soft kit link. I have not done business with these people, but I have heard good things about them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! Thank you, even if they can't make the chalice I want they have *number* of other things I've been really looking for, like the complete set of cooking gear right out of the Luttrell Psalter and the table ware.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Gethin · Post by **Gethin** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:30 pm

Rhys,
You're welcome.

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All the best,
Rhys
"Art calls for complete mastery of techniques, developed by reflection within the soul"
Sifu Jun Fan Lee

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 2:36 pm

Dont know if this is what you are looking for, but seems to be in your price range.

http://www.religiousmall.com/products/request.php?photo=6435-00

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<A HREF="http://www.hosekileather.homestead.com" TARGET=_blank>

www.hosekileather.homestead.com

</A> "There was great wailing and gnashing of teeth"

Warren · Post by **Warren** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 2:44 pm

Here's another link

http://fadumont.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Alviti_Silver_Series_Chalices___Ciboria_74.html

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<A HREF="http://www.hosekileather.homestead.com" TARGET=_blank>

www.hosekileather.homestead.com

</A> "There was great wailing and gnashing of teeth"

Parlan · Post by **Parlan** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 3:31 pm

Ebay:

h ttp://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll ... sicSearch=

I sooo much would like to get a pair of these. Check out Luther's. Very nice.

[This message has been edited by Parlan (edited 04-09-2002).]

Munz · Post by **Munz** » Tue Apr 09, 2002 6:19 pm

I can almost guaranty that Luther will not make one. Many have asked and I've never seen one made. He made two and then stopped.