Amateur artist looking for tips on drawing mirror armor

[jadebrain]

(I'm not sure if this is the right section for this, but I'm sure someone will point me in the right direction if not)

Hello, everyone! As the subject implies, I am not an armorer, nor do I have plans on making or using armor, but rather my interest in armor is as an artist. That said, I want to make the armor that I draw look effective in terms of defensive quality, maneuverability, durability, and all other relevant aspects.

My current drawing, also as implied by the subject, is of a character wearing mirror armor. That is, armor consisting of mail with certain sections consisting of partial plate. There are certain aspects of mirror mail I'm not sure of, which is why I'm posting this thread. For example, in order to ensure ideal maneuverability while maintaining protection, how much space/how many links should be placed in between the plates? Would it be a good idea to have shoulder plates riveted to the chest plate, with a short mail "poncho" (for lack of a better term) attached underneath the shoulder plates to protect the arms, or would another design be more favorable? Are there any other things I should keep in mind?

Thanks in advance for any help provided.

[Johann ColdIron]

Well the good thing about drawing armour is that is doesn't actually have to work!

You might want to look at Persian, Indian and Eastern European armour for some inspiration. They used mail with integrated plates. Plates are usually found over the vital areas of lungs and heart and kidneys. Front and back.

Make sure you post some sketches so that people can offer suggestions as you progress.

[Kilkenny]

Johan is on the right track. Look to surviving examples of the style you wish to portray, either actual pieces of armour or illustrations of them by artists contemporary to the subject.

The sort of armour you are describing is largely middle eastern in origin, so you're looking for sources from Persia, Turkey, perhaps India.

You might want to look for "8 mirror" armour or "ch'araina" (that spelling can vary quite a bit, as it's a transliteration of a word not normally written in a Roman alphabet).

And yeah, show us some of your work. We all like looking at pictures

[jadebrain]

All right, here's a picture of the work so far. You'll notice that the proportions are a lot broader than most armor would be - that's because the armor is worn by a member of a minotaur-like fantasy race in a pen-n-paper RPG I'm working on, and so the anatomy of the character is different from a human.

As for the mention of the cultural origin of the armor, that's actually why I chose to go with mirror armor; the character's culture is largely inspired by the Indian Subcontinent and certain Middle Eastern cultures, and after doing some research on the types of armor they wore, I decided to go with mirror armor.

[schreiber]

Mirror armor like a char-aina, or four-mirror armor?
Google image search brings up quite a lot of originals.
All armorers are also artists.... so what I'd point out about them is that they look like shipping boxes a lot of the time. They're not particularly fitted to the body, and also not particularly rounded.
For instance, compare a char-aina:



With an essentially similar body defense, the Churburg 13:


Notice how in contrast the char-aina is just a bunch of plates crudely shaped into a box.
Also notice how much more effort went into the decoration on the char-aina.

[losthelm]

I would sugest looking at images of people in armour and do several charicter designs.
There are a lot of reinactment, living history groups as well as stills from movies that can help.

[Konstantin the Red]

Hi there! It's true -- this bunch loves seeing artwork showing armor that actually would move with and still protect the wearer, whether he's on both feet, both hooves, or standing on his head.

In short, stuff that isn't quite so -- dramatic -- as WoW Worgen armor as drawn (My opinionated opinion is it needn't look like that, and how the hell do they not snag things on those spikes? You can imagine them hanging up gutted woodchucks for lunch later.) or Warhammer 40K shoulder pauldrons the size and pretty much the shape of Airstream trailers. Anime canoe-paddle swords broad enough to rent advertising space on are right out. Though advertising there would also be right-on...

The artistically best of plate armor amounts to wearable, flexible sculpture. The late fifteenth and the sixteenth centuries really saw the flower of the pretty plate. It is rightly said of later plate, of the last part of the sixteenth and first half seventeenth, that it looks brutish -- and that can be itself another artistic arrow in the quiver.

Now, your critter's giant pauldrons -- they will move with a shoulder joint much better if they are not swinging on a rivet stuck in the breast and the back. That only allows the pauldrons to swing up and down, and that is not what a shoulder does. It's a ball and socket, which is already tough for plates to follow (they do much better on elbows, knees and fingers -- hinge joints) -- and what's worse, it's a ball and socket mounted on a sort of tripod made up of your collarbones and your shoulder blades. You can move the whole ball of your shoulder in a circle some inches across. So what's a poor pauldron to do to follow such nonsense? Welp, first fasten its top at only one point, along the line of the trapezoid muscle, though more centered, and only with a swiveling or a flexible attachment. You've three choices for this one, depending on your race's technical savvy. Fanciest is a hinge there that fits upon a spring pin coming up from port and starboard of a plate gorget, not shown in your armor drawing. The other two fasteners are themselves flexible: a strap and buckle from the same place, or literally to tie the durn thing on with stout laces, known as "points" in the trade. There is much discussion of location of points on under-armor garments and their efficient tying, so they may be easily untied again. The deal with lacing armor pieces on with points is that every location of points features a pair of holes to put the cords through for tying. This fastening is also very easy to adjust when necessary. Yes, it is somewhat vulnerable to being cut, so sometimes points might be doubled up -- perhaps, though not often, another pair of holes for points nearby. More often, such things would be fitted into sheltered locations. Typical of fitting a pauldron with points is to have a leather tab attached at that central swivel point, sticking out like a sassy tongue from the upper/inner/medial margin of the pauldron plates, or assembly. Said tab would have the holes to put points through, kind of tucked out of the way by the extent of the pauldron and however far the helmet comes down.

The other end of the pauldron may strap and buckle at the biceps or, as the classic solution was, become the top end of the entire arm defense, rerebrace, couter, vambrace and all; the fastenings of these kept the attached pauldron or its pieces in order. Pauldrons themselves ended up articulated too, for war harness. Tilting pieces might well be quite solid for strength at a price in mobility, or alternatively a comprehensive shoulder defense called a grandguard would literally be bolted on over everything else. Ultra protectiveness tended to be the hallmark of such advanced sporting goods, while stuff designed for war allowed mobility and called for you to be more active in your own defense.

For us, fantastick armor comes off better when it sticks to what's ergonomic -- and these are the shapes and forms you see plate armor of all historic kinds and times taking. NOT what you see in other movies. These were the shapes that both moved with your motions in combat and which also kept you covered. It was knowledge hard won, with the notes taken in dried blood.

Is your 'taur a mounted warrior? Then it's okay to leave his genitals unarmored like that -- his saddle and perhaps the saddle-steels will cover that. If he's afoot all the time, he may do much better to have his mail skirt (which is well formed as you've got it, however his plate reinforces may be arrayed on it) cover his mating-tackle straight across. Have the hem well below his danglies; a mail hem has considerable inertia and sets up a regular slap-slap as one walks. The hem right at the orbs means the poor guy gets bent by his own armor. So, down a bit, okay?

Bare minimum expanse of mail between and attaching pieces of plate would be about three links. For some places, it might better jump to five links apart. More after that is just gravy, heading in the direction of greater and greater ease of wear at the expense of absolute protection.

For the "short poncho" google "bishop's-mantle" as they named them back then. By its mere self it was a popular -- because cheap -- 16th-c. infantry piece of protection. Many Landsknechts -- you will find these improbable warriors visually fascinating! -- had a mantle as their one piece of armor protection, quite often not even a hard hat! And they'd wade into the brawl with halberd, pike, or Zweihänder great sword. It covered about like a short poncho too, from the neck, on the upper vitals and the arms down to a bit short of the elbow. A fancy mantle might have a bit of a tight standing collar of mail to it. Usually they just started at the base of the neck.

Another visually interesting sort of armor which is abundantly flexible and particularly well suited to torso defense is brigandine, q.v. here by hitting the Search button. This stuff can follow whatever the fashionable cut is in garments, especially fitted ones... but its rivets show just enough to declare understatedly that there is rather more here than meets the eye. Brig is like scale but turned inside out and its scales fastened not at the top of the scale but at the bottom edge. This seeming oddity also makes the stuff damned tough against a thrusting dagger or other thrust attack from below, for the very part the point has to push aside immediately to wound is also the part most strongly fastened down. Works great against edged weapons. More and better firearms is what killed it after a couple of centuries of use. Not instantly and not everywhere... it hung on in the Scottish Border area pretty late. But Borderers stole from each other so much nobody had a lot of money all at once most days. They recycled clapped-out breastplates into stuffed jacks.

As you can see, there can be a devilish lot of devilishly interesting details in armor.

[jadebrain]

...Now, your critter's giant pauldrons -- they will move with a shoulder joint much better if they are not swinging on a rivet stuck in the breast and the back. That only allows the pauldrons to swing up and down, and that is not what a shoulder does. It's a ball and socket, which is already tough for plates to follow (they do much better on elbows, knees and fingers -- hinge joints) -- and what's worse, it's a ball and socket mounted on a sort of tripod made up of your collarbones and your shoulder blades. You can move the whole ball of your shoulder in a circle some inches across. So what's a poor pauldron to do to follow such nonsense? Welp, first fasten its top at only one point, along the line of the trapezoid muscle, though more centered, and only with a swiveling or a flexible attachment. You've three choices for this one, depending on your race's technical savvy. Fanciest is a hinge there that fits upon a spring pin coming up from port and starboard of a plate gorget, not shown in your armor drawing. The other two fasteners are themselves flexible: a strap and buckle from the same place, or literally to tie the durn thing on with stout laces, known as "points" in the trade. There is much discussion of location of points on under-armor garments and their efficient tying, so they may be easily untied again. The deal with lacing armor pieces on with points is that every location of points features a pair of holes to put the cords through for tying. This fastening is also very easy to adjust when necessary. Yes, it is somewhat vulnerable to being cut, so sometimes points might be doubled up -- perhaps, though not often, another pair of holes for points nearby. More often, such things would be fitted into sheltered locations. Typical of fitting a pauldron with points is to have a leather tab attached at that central swivel point, sticking out like a sassy tongue from the upper/inner/medial margin of the pauldron plates, or assembly. Said tab would have the holes to put points through, kind of tucked out of the way by the extent of the pauldron and however far the helmet comes down.

Yeah, that was one thing I was wondering about, though my initial assumptions seem to have by far underestimated the impact of riveted pauldrons on maneuverability. At first, I wasn't sure I understood what you were describing with the alternatives you mentioned - I think the first suggestion was a hinge attaching the pauldron to a gorget, and I may or may not apply a similar idea, given that the gorget, in the case of this character, would probably eventually be mail, not plate. As for the second alternative you mentioned, I think I know what you're talking about, though I'm not quite sure how I would go about designing the points so as to be protected (though, given the size of the character, the points would probably be too far out of the way to be easily targeted by most opponents). As for the race's technical savvy, in case you're curious, the setting of the game I'm making is such that most races are pretty well assimilated into the same societies, with only a small number of actual "racial societies;" as such, the technical savvy of any given individual depends more on "where" you're asking the question, rather than "what" you're asking the question to.

Is your 'taur a mounted warrior? Then it's okay to leave his genitals unarmored like that -- his saddle and perhaps the saddle-steels will cover that. If he's afoot all the time, he may do much better to have his mail skirt (which is well formed as you've got it, however his plate reinforces may be arrayed on it) cover his mating-tackle straight across. Have the hem well below his danglies; a mail hem has considerable inertia and sets up a regular slap-slap as one walks. The hem right at the orbs means the poor guy gets bent by his own armor. So, down a bit, okay?

Erm... well... I'm not sure how many details I can share about this race's anatomy in that respect, given the forum rules, or how much I should share, given the awkward tangent it would cause, but the race has only one physical sex, and if I'm correct, the word for that sex is "autogamous." That is, the act of conceiving an offspring for them occurs via an entirely internal process, and it only requires one individual. If you were to examine them externally, you'd think they were all females, albeit very bulky and muscular females. I got the idea after doing research on the canon background information for the movie "District 9." Setting-wise, it provides a biological justification for their intense loyalty - they have an extremely maternal view of not only their actual children, but also their allies, whom they see in almost the same way.

Bare minimum expanse of mail between and attaching pieces of plate would be about three links. For some places, it might better jump to five links apart. More after that is just gravy, heading in the direction of greater and greater ease of wear at the expense of absolute protection.

Well, that answers that question, and quite nicely, too.

[Konstantin the Red]

At first, I wasn't sure I understood what you were describing with the alternatives you mentioned - I think the first suggestion was a hinge attaching the pauldron to a gorget, and I may or may not apply a similar idea, given that the gorget, in the case of this character, would probably eventually be mail, not plate.

Yes. The hinge joint is for the up-and-down, and the half of the hinge closest to the neck swivels on a pin which is mounted on the edge of the gorget's superhumeral plate -- the bit that isn't around the neck -- to take care of front-and-back. And like I said, the gorget's absent from your pic.

In many arm/shoulder defense systems, the gorget about the neck was an integral part of it all.

The mail equivalent of a gorget was used before they got articulated gorgets figured out in the latter fifteenth century. It was a standing turtleneck-shape of mail which buckled shut at back or side of neck and is called a "standard of mail" because it stands up. At least in use. Awkward to actually hang a pauldron/arm assembly from, though, for mail is floppy. Our Hero would better do with something like straps and a collar worn under that standard to hold heersh arm-harness on with the straps, or by thonging things on with points to a garment beneath. Nothing wrong with thonging straps together with laces either; it's simple, adjustable, easy to fix if it snaps, and it's flat so it doesn't hang up on stuff.

It's a truism in sticking armor on that points hold armor pieces up, while straps and buckles mostly hold armor in. Snugged to joints, or closed around forearms and upper arms, even in some kinds of gear strapping the lower ends of breastplates and backplates together, often not even needing a belt that goes all the way around, but simply beltlike straps riveted to the backplate, and buckling around the belly, inside that crease of a peascod breastplate where its lower flange begins, a sort of one-piece peplum.

Also, armor has to hang from convenient bodily shelves, like shoulders, or narrowings like waistlines where stuff can be distinctly cinched in over the hipbones. The next best cinch-place is the top of the calf muscle, for the fully enclosed greave that doesn't even bother with straps, using a complete enclosure of hinged metal with fasteners such as hooks or straps and buckles. Hinges outside, straps inside. But it does have to be fitted closely to the wearer, about like a thick coat of paint, to hold itself up that well. Armourers take many measurements or use limb castings for this kind of fit. Otherwise a "cased greave" can savage your instep and batter your ankle-bones.

The contours of the arm usually aren't quite enough on human frames to do anything similar, so everything from shoulder to wrist (pauldron to vambrace if you like) gets slung somehow from the shoulder, either by metal-to-metal-piece articulation -- in effect a series of hinges, each of limited travel, that bend the hard shell around a flexing joint -- or a few independent but overlapping pieces, each of which is laced onto an underlying sturdy fabric sleeve with more of those points. The elbow in this type of arm harness, or "brassart," is an ingenious bracelet-like object, shaped overall like two broad squat cones intersecting each other at an angle. This may be open on the inside, or even surround the entire elbow completely. Its bi-conical shape relies on the fact that the elbow only closes so tight, and there's a distinct angle described between forearm and biceps. So the two cones intersect to make that same angle. The rest of the conicality gets determined by the line of the straightened arm, though the cop is capable of small movement in the direction of the point of the elbow when the arm is straightened. This kind of arm and elbow is called a "German" arm around here, as they invented it. It kind of sidesteps that truism above about points and straps; the sleeve underneath, attached to a sturdy arming-doublet, is the main holder-up, and the points tying everything on -- first the vambrace and rerebrace are put on and tied, then the cop is slid on like a big bracelet and tied above and below -- keep everything in the proper positions. Damned inventive, really.

The Italians invented the other way, with the elbow cop with articulating lames above and below it. We think. We're not quite sure. This kind of joint protection emerged in the fourteenth century and all over Western Europe. The Italians stuck with it and got pretty fancy -- even fanciful -- in artfully shaping all the pieces. The Germans devised that other arm, though German leg armor did stay with the articulated lames, which the German arm system conspicuously does not have and doesn't need, and which armor nerds like us go "oh, my" over.

[Milan H]

My advice, is to let us know where you live. Someone probably lives near by with a nice set of armor and some good books (IE anything at http://www.hansprunner.com) The page I linked to has some of the most exquisite photos of armor I have ever seen, and really capture the form and function while exemplifying the art within the defenses. In order to 'get it' you gotta see it and develop an eye for the lines and how armor flows. You will be amazed how distorted the modern view of armor is after you complete this journey

Cheers!

[jadebrain]

At first, I wasn't sure I understood what you were describing with the alternatives you mentioned - I think the first suggestion was a hinge attaching the pauldron to a gorget, and I may or may not apply a similar idea, given that the gorget, in the case of this character, would probably eventually be mail, not plate.

Yes. The hinge joint is for the up-and-down, and the half of the hinge closest to the neck swivels on a pin which is mounted on the edge of the gorget's superhumeral plate -- the bit that isn't around the neck -- to take care of front-and-back. And like I said, the gorget's absent from your pic.

In many arm/shoulder defense systems, the gorget about the neck was an integral part of it all.

The mail equivalent of a gorget was used before they got articulated gorgets figured out in the latter fifteenth century. It was a standing turtleneck-shape of mail which buckled shut at back or side of neck and is called a "standard of mail" because it stands up. At least in use. Awkward to actually hang a pauldron/arm assembly from, though, for mail is floppy. Our Hero would better do with something like straps and a collar worn under that standard to hold heersh arm-harness on with the straps, or by thonging things on with points to a garment beneath. Nothing wrong with thonging straps together with laces either; it's simple, adjustable, easy to fix if it snaps, and it's flat so it doesn't hang up on stuff.

This is the part of your post I understood. Bear in mind, I'm not an armorer, and even in my artwork I'm an amateur, so it's kind of hard for me to understand this stuff anyway. That said...

I'm not sure how I'd be able to draw, directly or implicitly, either of your suggestions, given that (from what I can tell) you're suggesting that the pauldron should be attached underneath the standard. I thought, at first, that I could just draw the standard slightly above part of the pauldron, but wouldn't the "floppyness" of mail mean that that would cause its own problems? I tried doing a web and image search for "standard of mail" to get a better idea, but (as to be expected) all I got was a bunch of postal service stuff.

Either way, here is an updated version of the outline of my picture, with all the parts (supposedly) on there, though some of it will probably change before I move on to the final draft.

And to Milan H: I live in southern Maine.

[YMHoward]

Hi jadebrain,

Regarding your image search on google, try searching for "maille standard" - the different spelling will give you the results you want.

Also, would you mind if I took your drawing and changed it a bit, to show you some things that just look out-of-place/slightly-strange/somehow-wrong to me?

[jadebrain]

Hi jadebrain,

Regarding your image search on google, try searching for "maille standard" - the different spelling will give you the results you want.

Also, would you mind if I took your drawing and changed it a bit, to show you some things that just look out-of-place/slightly-strange/somehow-wrong to me?

Thanks for the advice on spelling. And as for the drawing, go right ahead. I think it would be easier for me to understand what to do differently if I had a visual reference.

[YMHoward]

Gah. I tried but altering somebody else's work is just something that makes me go crazy, so I'll just list some things.

First, the wrist of the weapon hand looks like it wouldn't be able to move - you may want to look at the length of the bracer, and the design of the gauntlet-thing - as it is it's got clean lines and an elegance, but it doesn't look too practical.

Second, the pauldron/spaulder/shoulder piece looks too long - it looks like it would inhibit lifting the arm more than 45 degrees. Maybe if it was sectioned? You could keep the same teardrop overall shape but it would be made of four or five pieces - I would recommend looking at the real deal here.

Third, is it mail hanging off the shoulder?

Fourth, to me it looks like the middle plate over the belly extends below the 'bend line', which would make moving around or bending forward exceedingly interesting - maybe the middle plate could be separate pieces like the one below, that still add up to the same shape?



Other than all those fiddly bits, I like!!!!

[Konstantin the Red]

What YMH said, all of it. "Maille" is a lot better for googling stuff that isn't USPS but little steel rings. I don't hold with that spelling myself except as a search term, considering it both affected and an unnecessary crossbreed of a word halfway between French mailles and English mail. Which dips it somewhere into the Channel between Dover and Calais. Pretty soggy.

We can get you there, jadebrain, even if it's a steep slope right now. Admittedly, this is a site where armourers educate armourers, so its technicalisms lean to the armor-plated, swords-or-hammers mentality and background quite a bit. Armor nerdiness.

I'm rather assuming throwing the kind of stuff I did at you would work about like the way lifting weights helped to teach me anatomy for drawing -- when you've gotten that particular muscle or muscle group good and tired, even sore, you know exactly where it is, where it emerges, where it inserts, and above all what it does. From the inside. Without having to either hire a bodybuilder to model for you, or buy muscle magazines for a reference archive. Or that overdone-muscularity Anatomy for the Artist art book where all the figures are seemingly without skin. The one that's more informative than artistically beautiful. Somewhere on my shelves...

[jadebrain]

First, the wrist of the weapon hand looks like it wouldn't be able to move - you may want to look at the length of the bracer, and the design of the gauntlet-thing - as it is it's got clean lines and an elegance, but it doesn't look too practical.

Really? Huh... I didn't think that the bracer as it is would have been a noteworthy obstruction. As for the "gauntlet-thing," I assume you mean the part on the hand itself? That's supposed to be mail on top of thick quilted cloth. Speaking of which, how practical would it be to have mail sewn on to cloth? I'd imagine that having the mail flop about separate from the cloth would get irritating and even painful when swinging a weapon.

Second, the pauldron/spaulder/shoulder piece looks too long - it looks like it would inhibit lifting the arm more than 45 degrees. Maybe if it was sectioned? You could keep the same teardrop overall shape but it would be made of four or five pieces - I would recommend looking at the real deal here.

The pauldron is a bit large, yes. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how I'd be able to section it, as the way I have it now, the mail is attached and hanging from the pauldron itself (is that a good idea?). Although, I could have it sectioned in the same way that the body armor is... And then, maybe it doesn't actually need to hang from the pauldron, but instead it could be draped over the shoulders, then attached via some straps on the front, which would be underneath the standard of mail gorget, which of course would have to extend down further... Would this work?

Third, is it mail hanging off the shoulder?

See above.

Fourth, to me it looks like the middle plate over the belly extends below the 'bend line', which would make moving around or bending forward exceedingly interesting - maybe the middle plate could be separate pieces like the one below, that still add up to the same shape?

That's another thing regarding this creature's anatomy... Remember what I said earlier about the specie being monosexual, and if you were to examine them externally, you'd think they were all female? Their hips and waist are higher relative to the rest of the body than on a human male, so that may have been confusing to you, visually speaking. You may have also noticed that the plate itself is "embossed," which is to make room for the breasts. Granted, I may have overestimated the amount of "embossing" needed, especially since it's on the outermost layer of armor, where the shape would be obscured by all the padding underneath anyway...

[YMHoward]

See the attachment for a sketch of the sectioned shoulder.

Regarding the mail-to-cloth, I think maybe it would be tied on at the edges so it could come apart, but you'd have to get some of the others opinions on that, I don't know enough about it.

Regarding the embossing or shaping for breasts, even for female humans, which have large breasts compared to most mammals, there isn't really a need for that, plus the underlayers would compress and/or shape them to maybe a slight gentle bump over the abdomen.

Anyway, gotta head to work...

[Dougal Forester]

Maille Standards. And a cool armoured horseman. (courtesy of mac)

[Konstantin the Red]

It's large as mail standards go, but yes, that's the idea. That particular one has a hidden rigid neckband incorporated into the collar portion. It's pretending to be only mail, but is also really complying with Creative Anachronist armor standards for protecting the hyoid bones and the cervical vertebrae.

Nice piece of work.

[jadebrain]

Thanks for the reference pictures, Dougal. I hadn't even really considered the idea of incorporating a neckband into the standard; now that you've brought it to my attention, it seems like a very good idea for keeping the armor in place, among other things.

YMHoward, would any embossing be needed at all, then?

Also, I'm still not sure if having the bishop's mantle draped and strapped under the standard of mail is a good idea - YMHoward is the only one who addressed that question, and he wasn't even sure.

[Konstantin the Red]

And bishops'-mantles weren't themselves strapped down anyway. They just draped. That's why they fit simply everyone. That big standard up there is approaching bishop's-mantle dimensions. Another four inches' radius and it'd be there.

[jadebrain]

And bishops'-mantles weren't themselves strapped down anyway. They just draped. That's why they fit simply everyone. That big standard up there is approaching bishop's-mantle dimensions. Another four inches' radius and it'd be there.

Ah... so if it's parted in the front, as in my drawing thus far, it doesn't actually count as a Bishop's Mantle? Bear in mind, I'm still trying to keep this character looking like someone from a particular culture, which is why I chose mirror armor in the first place. Before I even made this thread, I looked up pictures of Rajput warriors, and that's where I got the idea for the parted bishop's-mantle-like mail formation on the upper body (admittedly, the picture had quilted cloth instead of mail for the part in question). When I referred to straps, I didn't so much mean to keep the mail attached so much as to keep the mail draped in the way that it would be. I ended up thinking of this after it was mentioned that the pauldron was too large and should be segmented, since before, the mail was supposed to be attached to the pauldron itself, and segmenting the pauldron would make that awkward, if it would work at all.

In case you're wondering, here's the Rajput warrior picture I looked at.

[Sam O.]

Off the top of my head, the piece covering the minotaur's fetlocks looks like it would be a bit restrictive and the actual point of the shoulder is left bare (going off first pic where the arm is slightly visible).

Ah... so if it's parted in the front, as in my drawing thus far, it doesn't actually count as a Bishop's Mantle?

I don't fully understand what part of your drawing you are referencing here, but if you're trying to achieve a look like the Rajput armour (where the maille is hanging off the helmet), it would simply be part of the helmet's aventail or drape. I don't know if you meant to draw something like that or more of a shoulder and upper chest covering like the mantle Dougal posted.

Sorry if I'm mis-interpreting some parts, but looking at your first pic, I can see faint lines indicating the body underneath, you've created the waist a lot higher than it should be. The waist should be just above the "V" of the crotch (if that makes sense), and the centre plate should be shortened. With the "bend" line, if you examine the thinnest point of the minotaur's waist and compare it to the photo of the Rajput armour, the round plate on the Rajput armour would be above the thinnest point, and above the navel. Whereas the plate on the minotaur would be covering the navel and stopping him/her from bending forward.

I've added my shitty MS paint editing to show what I mean. The upper line is where the waist is at now, the lower one is where it should be.

I think what was being insinuated with the length of the bracer, was that they didn't extend all the way up to the wrist, they ended a bit back so that the wrist could properly flex backwards(that's why plate gauntlets have multiple articulated plates).

In terms of the mail/cloth combo covering the back of the hand, it would need to be anchored with a strap running from either side and across the palm. It seems to be a prevalent theme in fantasy drawings and the closest thing I can think of is a Japanese tekko.
If you look through the pictures under the heading "kote" on Effingham's site, you'll see what I mean.
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html

Apart from that, you could put some holes in the helmet to help it breathe!

This thread almost inspires me to put up some of my fantasy drawings for scrutiny.

Edit: I just noticed that you already addressed the differing body proportions, so I'm sure it'll be easy enough to work out.

[YMHoward]

Sorry I didn't finish what I was writing jade, I'll try to answer some of the questions you asked me above

First, the wrist of the weapon hand looks like it wouldn't be able to move - you may want to look at the length of the bracer, and the design of the gauntlet-thing - as it is it's got clean lines and an elegance, but it doesn't look too practical.

Really? Huh... I didn't think that the bracer as it is would have been a noteworthy obstruction. As for the "gauntlet-thing," I assume you mean the part on the hand itself? That's supposed to be mail on top of thick quilted cloth. Speaking of which, how practical would it be to have mail sewn on to cloth? I'd imagine that having the mail flop about separate from the cloth would get irritating and even painful when swinging a weapon.

The bracer looks like the top/outer side extends too far - when drawing anything around the wrist, I usually first see if it passes this simple rule: the edges must be at or before the furthest you can put your thumb up along your wrist and still bend your hand comfortably. The back of the wrist actually needs a little more space than the inside of the wrist, if it was only the wrist being taken into account. Once the projection of the thumb downwards is added in to the bend both sides need pretty much the same amount of free space.

See the quickly and badly drawn attachment of a hand down at 90 degree angle - to me it looks like your drawing has the bracer all the way at 1, and things usually go to around the 2 mark

*snip*

YMHoward, would any embossing be needed at all, then?

*snip*

I think a gentle curve or dishing to displace any impact force off the mammaries and onto less sensitive areas, but it would still be in contact with the padding underneath. You might want someone who makes armour to chime in here - while I will say that I have a working knowledgfe of it and do mostly understand the way it works, I don't have the extensive knowledge that quite a few have here.


Also, on the mail on the back of the hand - you would probably want that piece and the piece covering the thumb connected somehow so they doesn't flap around.

Hope this is a help,
YMHoward

[Konstantin the Red]

They tended to put the fastening in a mantle on the back or the right side, presenting the stoutest, most unbroken surface forward where most threats should be coming from, at some cost to convenience fastening it up. If you're fighting the way you ought to be, and not so rattled as to turn and run. They tend to eat you alive if you do that... so armies, ah, discourage it.

'Course, they might well have done the bra-hooking trick, and fasten it in front and then turn it around into proper wearing position. There are several shapes used for these mantles, and we're not precisely sure just what they did to fasten some of them closed about the neck, but it looks like leather thongs and a bow knot could do the trick well and simply. The standard in the photos featured a slit going down a little ways into the large, expanded cowl portion, but not reaching all the way to the hem. Just having enough to put your head through.

[jadebrain]

See the quickly and badly drawn attachment of a hand down at 90 degree angle - to me it looks like your drawing has the bracer all the way at 1, and things usually go to around the 2 mark

I think a gentle curve or dishing to displace any impact force off the mammaries and onto less sensitive areas, but it would still be in contact with the padding underneath.

Also, on the mail on the back of the hand - you would probably want that piece and the piece covering the thumb connected somehow so they doesn't flap around.

All of this is very helpful, and I'll definitely be applying your advice in the next posting of the rough draft. Thank you!

[jadebrain]

They tended to put the fastening in a mantle on the back or the right side, presenting the stoutest, most unbroken surface forward where most threats should be coming from, at some cost to convenience fastening it up. If you're fighting the way you ought to be, and not so rattled as to turn and run. They tend to eat you alive if you do that... so armies, ah, discourage it.

Would this still apply, given the fact that the front of the torso is being protected by plate? I drew the "bishop's mantle" with the assumption that it would be used more to protect the arms. I'm still not sure if "bishop's mantle" is the right term for the piece in question.

[Konstantin the Red]

Well, maybe. What examples of art I've seen -- the Osprey series' Landsknechts book -- shows the mantle being thrown on over the top of breast and back if these are even present. As an extra.

It can be tricky to integrate large, separate mail pieces with plate, though it was done. Still, it's simpler integrating mail to mail, which is more or less what you're doing with your bullishcritter. They did it in the fourteenth century in Europe -- mixed a lot of mail with plate as the art of armoring transitioned from mail to plate: the century began with its warriors in mail head to toe plus various helms and simple kinds of helmets -- often enough both worn together (!) and the helm shucked after the first lance charge because now all the lances were either broken, stuck in the other guys, or just dropped, so now it was sword, mace, or axe time (the very protective helm was not that great to see out of through its eyeslits) -- to more and more pieces of plate stuff put on various places, until by 1399 a very nearly complete harness of plate was state of the art. (We tend to call these armours "bascinet armours." They were all pretty much variations on one design theme by 1365-1399, with bascinet helmets, plate limbs, cloth over the torso armor, and optionally greathelms on over the bascinets. The next century was when things really got varied and more kinds of helmet were invented. They got seriously creative -- lots of 'hey, because we can, we're that good' stuff. More style and fancy than the fundamentally simple, all-business look of the bascinet armours.) End of discursive digression.

The "tricky" I'm talking about is sometimes mail can snag various parts of plate and bind you up, and that's about as bad as you'd think. To avoid that kind of thing, you end up needing to know how an armor system -- that's really what it is, a defensive weapons system -- will work, and to optimize its working. That's why historical armor suits look the way they do -- these are the shapes to form a hard shell around you that moves with you and still covers you no matter what you do. These shapes are the ergonomic ones. This knowledge was hard won, and the notes were taken in blood.

Mail like a mantle that basically drapes has more of a chance to snag on plate bits than mail like a shirt that fits close and doesn't flap around much. The bits of a mailshirt that could flap around were also kind of set out pretty well clear of neighboring plate pieces, like down at the hem of the shirt. This might be roofed over with an outer layer of the metal hoops or strips of the "fauld," which would reinforce. The mail tended to stick out from under a little ways. Defending the hips was often done by various skirt-like shapes of plate or of mail, sometimes scales, and in a couple layers of defense -- tightly defending and still moving with the ball and socket motions of the hip joint was a real toughie. I wouldn't say they ever came up with a perfect one-piece solution, not even in the famous Henry VIII "butt suit," which almost looks like some fifteenth-century space suit. (He never used it...)

Which is a lot of yadda yadda that adds up to "maybe can be done, and it's possible to do it wrong and be disappointed."

[jadebrain]

The "tricky" I'm talking about is sometimes mail can snag various parts of plate and bind you up, and that's about as bad as you'd think.

While it does sound very bad, I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing mail snagging on plate - could you elaborate?

[Konstantin the Red]

Corners. Corners of lames -- which might be thought of as slices of articulation. In some situations, elbow or knee fans -- those fishtail-like things on elbow or knee cops. They're a bit less trouble that way if they're not made in dogbone-end or fishtail shapes, as sometimes they were not. (What those bits do is guard your inner joint from getting cut, especially the hamstrings of your legs.)

Mail is so draggy a material as to surprise you. A bodily hump can act about like a sea anchor -- doesn't quite stop mail from sliding over it but it sure slows it down. We actually use that to advantage in something shaped and located a lot like the standard-of-mail above: the mail camail on a 14th-c. bascinet, which may -- didn't always, as we see from period pictures -- lap over the points of the shoulders by a little bit. Say you take a hit at your neck wearing such a helmet; a lot of that strike's energy goes into dragging the camail material over the hump made by the point of your shoulder, instead of going in to bust your neck. So the blow is soaked up. And then you smite that other guy a good one so he sees stars and planets and a moon or two.

So if the stuff ever does get something to snag on, it's likely to do quite a job of it for a second or so. We're not talking Velcro here, but at the wrong second, it's a real annoyance.