Thun Sketchbook Image #44 discussion

[Tom B.]

The more I look at the big gold plate in the image, the less certain I become about it. I might be a pauldron reenforce with a haute piece.... but then again, perhaps that tall part is intended to cover the chin. I can't convince myself that I understand what the artist was trying to show us.

Other images of interest are...
---image 65. Here we see a large reenforcing piece which is probably a bit later, but it still shows a lot of Gothic style. Its attachment seems to be different, though; a bolt and two notches for locating studs.
---image 82 gives us two different jousting targets, one of which is a big round one shaped like a rose. Perhaps the "other" rondell in the image 44 is not to scale... (a bit of a long shot)
---image 103 has some jousting pieces with Gothic styling. There are two large plates that would occupy the correct location.
---image 106 includes another breast with the "mystery staple" and a big-ass reenforcing plate with a built in bevor.... all with Gothic styling.

Mac

Most of those are the images I never got around to posting earlier.

[Tom B.]

So, where is my copy of this interesting book?

Take a look at this thread

[Tom B.]

The more I look at the big gold plate in the image, the less certain I become about it. I might be a pauldron reenforce with a haute piece.... but then again, perhaps that tall part is intended to cover the chin. I can't convince myself that I understand what the artist was trying to show us.

Mac

Here are zoomed in pics of the item in question from image #44 and a pauldron reenforce from image #100.

[InsaneIrish]

That looks almost identical to the one on .369 Image 81. Upper right hand corner.

Would Grand guards have been padded with fulled felt/wool?

[Tom B.]

Koloman Colman
(German, Augsburg, 1473–1532)
Armorer: Helmet and reinforcing pieces by Kolman Helmschmid (German, Augsburg, 1471–1532)
Date: ca. 1510–20
Culture: German, Augsburg
Medium: Etched steel
Classification: Armor for Man-1/2 Armor
Credit Line: Bashford Dean Memorial Collection, Bequest of Bashford Dean, 1928
Accession Number: 29.150.6

[Tom B.]

(Click on image to open larger version)

[Tom B.]

Here is image #12

[Tom B.]

That looks almost identical to the one on .369 Image 81. Upper right hand corner.

Would Grand guards have been padded with fulled felt/wool?

Detail from Image #81

[Tom B.]

My keen interest in the possible use of a grand guard with the war harness is that it could possibly solve many of the issues with jousting in a sallet.

Andreas Wenzel (well know jouster in Europe) proposes that this item is just an early version of the targe like Maximilian's now at Leeds.

http://www.royalarmouries.org/visit-us/ ... image/1331
http://www.royalarmouries.org/visit-us/ ... war-armour
http://www.youtube.com/v/aSY3Hb0Kupg

[Ernst]

Tom,

Perhaps the little piece is, in fact, a chin reinforce. See the Schwäbisch Gmünd bevor.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26121

Photo from Oliver Schmid
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=40469

Photo from Blaz Berlac
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k26/B ... iedner.jpg

And probably taken from Mann

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Oh there is nothing special.

Here is the bracket

P1050418.JPG

and here the attached bevor.

P1050413.JPG

I have to say this was a later addition and there is no locking function, it is just to keep the gorget plate down.

I don't have the book, so I can't provide a picture at the moment, but in the Vienna Catalogs there are a couple harnesses from Braunschweig, iirc, that have such posts on the BP and the bevor fit onto them, with a pin locking them in place.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

[Tom B.]

While rereading Dr. Terjanian's article I noticed that he says "which seems to be a grandguard" in reference to the item in image #44.
In a footnote he goes on to say "This Piece compares closely in form and shading to the grandguard at the top right of folio n66r (image 81)."


Here are zoomed in pics of the item in question from image #44


Detail from Image #81

[Tom B.]

My interest in this thread has been rekindled due to some of the info we are talking about in this other thread

A62, made for Archduke Sigismund or Emperor Maximilian?

It seems that Matthias Pfaffenbichler, as well as others, think that the A62 harness may in fact be part of a protogarniture (thanks to James Arlen Gillaspie for coining the term) made by Helmschmid for Emperor Maximilian. He points to these images from the Thun Sketchbook as showing parts of this protogarnature.

[Tom B.]

In light of the images we have been finding in Mac's Gothic Codpiece thread maybe Mart was right.

2.What is the piece above and right of the bevor?

Or below the back and breastplate? Forming the question in one way might lead one to think it's a chin cup, formed the other way it might be another type of cup, a codpiece.

Good point.
Here is the best possible zoomed version of that item.
We have reached the limit of the printed picture.