scalemail time period

[ironstripe]

Hi I'm new to this forum and wish to join the SCA. I have already been working on a scalemail hauberk with the scales I bought from theringlord.com, but I was wondering what time period that it was in use. I know that it was used by the Romans and some Asian cultures, but was it ever used in Europe during the middle ages and at what time frame would it be?

[Konstantin the Red]

Welcome and well come, Ironstripe! We can help you do a LOT of medieval-Euro harness here; you're in the right place.

But scale, not at that small a size in medieval period, no. I fear you've let some hobbyist enthusiasm run away with you if you hope to make use of that in the SCA fighting field. Plain mail over a gambeson (I'm speaking loosely here (this lot insists that what's under mail is an aketon, and that a gambeson is over the mail as a highly effective supplementary protection for the vitals)) is much more the thing, and entirely buildable by you at low cost to boot.

Some scale faulds, 14th-c. Eastern Europe, a scattering of scale-construction camails/camail substitutes. That's really about it. But you've got a lot of material choices for such scaley bits if you want them.

Proper scale, again a lot bigger than your Ringlord stuff which is really sci-fi costume material (if pretty sturdy), really had its heyday in the Bronze Age. We do have a few Roman & Romanized, and Classical Greek, correspondents. The Romans don't have much trouble getting Roman helmets, but the Greeks have a rough -- read expensive -- time securing Corinthian helmets, and rather ignoring others that might really be easier to construct... a little scale there too. But they seem to have recognized plate was a good idea early.

We hope to hear if you have a favorite period, within period... or even if you don't. Don't get in any big ol' hurry to pick something or some time unless perhaps you want to start out kitting up like the neatest Household in your area. And where is that...? If you've used your hometown to see on the SCA's Kingdom page for your state which Shire or Barony you're handiest to, drop us a note about that or insert it in your Profile. We may be able to hook you up with some fun locals. Very occasionally even an Archiver who posts around here.

[worldantiques]

During the 17th-18th century Polish hussars used scale armor (karacena).

[Matthew Amt]

As Konstantin says, scale armor dates back to the Bronze Age, and was well known to the Greeks and Romans. Some Roman scales are VERY small!

But it is also pretty commonly seen in Carolingian illustrations. And there are scattered depictions of scale armor through the 11th to 13th centuries as well. I'm sure there are a couple threads around here with images and links! Of course, scales in medieval illustrations *look* pretty large, but with virtually no archeological remains, you kind of have to decide if they are accurately depicted, or if they were drawn larger than life-size so they'd be more visible (or for whatever reason).

Now, I can't help you with how *protective* your scales might be in SCA combat! Other folks have more experience with that. But it does seem pretty clear that scale armor did exist through the middle ages, though it was really not very common from the Viking era onwards.

Matthew

[Dan Howard]

The further east you travel the more common scale and lamellar tends to be. In Eastern Europe it was more prevalent than in Western Europe and in Asia it was the dominant type of armour.

[Henrik Granlid]

There are traces of body armour on some effigies from the 14th century, one in particular have what appeaes to be a short scale shirt with incorporated shoulderguards. You see the scaled chest showing nexg to the edge of the shoulderguards but not where his coat of arms ends. Here is also a small st George sculpture dated to the 14th century with a scale fauld, he's at one of the museums in Berlin or Munich I think.

There is also the st George statue on hradcany square or somesuch with sleeves and legs in plate, this likely due to the amount of poisoned arrows in the eastern nations during 14th century warfare, making scale prefferable to mail as far as I've come to understand it.

[Dan Howard]

There is also the st George statue on hradcany square or somesuch with sleeves and legs in plate, this likely due to the amount of poisoned arrows in the eastern nations during 14th century warfare, making scale prefferable to mail as far as I've come to understand it.

This is based on the misconception that mail was vulnerable to arrows. It wasn't. Arrows compromised mail occasionally but the chances of an arrow penetrating mail far enough to incapaciate a fighter was too low to have any effect on the outcome of a battle. It definitely isn't any more susceptible than scale armour of a similar weight

[Henrik Granlid]

Based on the discussion in the recreation thread over in the armour creation subforum, I was given the impression that the arrows do not need to penetrate the mail enough to incapacitate a fighter, merely pierce the skin in order to deliver their poison and thusly the scale fashion on "rich" armour would be explained. My mistake in case I am wrong tho =)

[Dan Howard]

That's certainly true. But any arrow that hits hard enough to penetrate mail and pierce the flesh will do the same thing to scale.

[Kristoffer]

I believe this thread could be of interest:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=132598

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

Poison?

[Russ Mitchell]

In SE and Eastern Europe? Very common.

[schreiber]

What poison is going to incapacitate a soldier in the short term, though? Seems like they'd need something really fast acting to make a difference in one battle. Imo it sounds like we may be talking about more of a drug than a poison. Would they have access to enough of it to make a strategic difference?

[Ranif]

There is also the st George statue on hradcany square or somesuch with sleeves and legs in plate, this likely due to the amount of poisoned arrows in the eastern nations during 14th century warfare, making scale prefferable to mail as far as I've come to understand it.

This is based on the misconception that mail was vulnerable to arrows. It wasn't. Arrows compromised mail occasionally but the chances of an arrow penetrating mail far enough to incapaciate a fighter was too low to have any effect on the outcome of a battle. It definitely isn't any more susceptible than scale armour of a similar weight

Dan
Henrik referred to poisoned arrows being used. A cut or deep scratch would be sufficient. A bodkin style arrow point wouldn't need to break open rivets to do the job.
Ranif

[Dan Howard]

Any mail that is as heavy as a scale corselet will have a very dense weave. No bodkin could penetrate it without breaking multiple links.

[Russ Mitchell]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/123830717/jou ... ory-vol-IV

Answers both issues. Needle bodkins don't care whether your hauberk is stout or not, just whether they're narrower than the inner diameter.
Given constant skirmishing and use of archery on horseback, they don't care how long it takes -- they shoot you, it hits, unless you're very lucky, you die. Whether you're hors-du-combat vs dead is a topic for those who prefer to nerdrage rather than study sources.

[Dan Howard]

The inner diameter of an individual link doesn't matter as much as the size of the gaps in the weave. The gaps in decent mail are effectively zero. The MET has a video showing that they can't stick a pin through it.

[Russ Mitchell]

I've handled a dozen historical pieces you could stick a #2 pencil through. As usual, Dan, I'm afraid you're moving the goalposts.
Mail is a fabulous armor, but all armors have tradeoffs and points of strength-vs-vulnerability.

[Dan Howard]

There are dozens of variants of mail. Any mail that weighs as much as scale armour is going to be as dense as I said with a corresponding increase in protection. If you want to compare mail that weighs half as much as scale then why would anyone be surprised that it provides less protection? It is like comparing a civilian kevlar vest with military anti-ballistic armour.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

The time and skill required to craft mail that dense should also be considered in its relationship with scale, which may have been more affordable protection despite being heavier.

-Gerhard

[Ernst]

Not sure what the pissing contest is about. A lot of depictions of medieval scale show it being worn over mail in the same way that coats of plates came to be used.

[Russ Mitchell]

Indeed, Ernst, especially on the Adriatic and SE Europe. I think Dan sees it as an either-or situation, where it's clearly not. Layered and composite defenses were quite common, and well before the mid-14th, too.

[worldantiques]

The inner diameter of an individual link doesn't matter as much as the size of the gaps in the weave. The gaps in decent mail are effectively zero. The MET has a video showing that they can't stick a pin through it.

Dan the video you mention has been discussed before, to call it blurred and lacking detail would be an understatement then add the fact that it is showing sleeves only. I have never seen a hauberk made with the same weave, some necklines and sleeves is all I have seen except for a few hauberks that were made with extremely small links with correspondingly small wire diameters that would not offer heavy weapons protection.

In my opinion the type of mail that actually offered real provable protection against arrow penetration is Indian theta link mail as shown in the images below, the bars going across the theta links fill in the gaps that would otherwise allow an arrow to enter. The arms and body of this Indian mail and plate shirt are composed of theta link mail, if anyone can show me a European equivalent I would like to see it.

[RandallMoffett]

'The inner diameter of an individual link doesn't matter as much as the size of the gaps in the weave. The gaps in decent mail are effectively zero. The MET has a video showing that they can't stick a pin through it.'

The problem with this comment is the assumption of what 'decent' mail really is. For what uses? For what threats? For who? At what costs? It is the assumption that 'decent' mail stopped this specific threat which I am not sure is right.

As the weave gets tighter and with it ability to withstand arrows it gets heavier but uses far more material as well so if also more costly. I'd say it is probable that wealthy knightly types probably could have had mail that was such a weave. So whereas the MET hauberk cannot have a pin put through I have seen mail a needle bodkin would have little problem in penetrating. The majority of mail I have seen would have no problem putting multiple pins through. So why assume something like the Met piece is average, normal, standard or 'decent'.

worldantiques,

It is indeed a very interesting type of mail and it is the type of weave I suspect would be a substantial defense.

Goes back to what I have said for years. There is mail and there is mail.

RPM

RPM

[worldantiques]

So whereas the MET hauberk cannot have a pin put through I have seen mail a needle bodkin would have little problem in penetrating. The majority of mail I have seen would have no problem putting multiple pins through. So why assume something like the Met piece is average, normal, standard or 'decent'.

Randall, the Met video specifically mentions that it was a sleeve that would have been attached to a doublet and not an entire hauberk. The video should not be used as an example of anything, it was filmed decades ago (1920's) and you can not see any details. I have never seen an entire European hauberk constructed with such a tight weave other than when the links are extremely small and fine.

At about 8.50 the part about mail is shown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqC_squo6X4

Screen shot.





This hauberk is constructed with very small links leaving little room for an arrow to penetrate but without the necessary wire strength.

European (German?) riveted mail hauberk, 15th c, a lead arsenal mark indicates that it was once stored at the St.Irene Arsenal in Constantinople due to being captured by the Ottomans in battle, The links have an outside dia. of 5-5.5 mm, wire dia. of 0.8 mm, and weight of 0.047g. The whole hauburk is 6.6kg (140.000 links), the usual number of rings of a basic mail shirt is 20.000-25.000 links, a hauberk of high quality is made of 30.000-50.000 links.

[AwP]

My understanding is that in eastern Europe they often used larger rings in their mail, which would give the arrows much less difficulty penetrating enough to allow poisoning.

[RandallMoffett]

worldantiques,

There is one very fine weave hauberk or haubergeon at the Wallace. I had some online photos of it. Might not be this fine but when I saw it the mail was amazing. The RA has another with very closely woven links but the wire itself was much finer.

RPM

[Karl Helweg]

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/eff ... _r5326.jpg
Albrecht von Hohenloehe c. 1325 wearing scale.

[Henrik Granlid]

Note that the scale shirt is shorter than his over-garment but still appears to be covering his chest and shoulders.

[Egfroth]

Ironstripe, if you're still there - the Byzantines (and their near neighbours such as the Georgians) made considerable use of scale armour over many centuries. Unfortunately, many representations of armour can be interpreted either as scale or mail, because of the convenionalised nature of the art (it's very difficult to show every mail ring - or metal scale - in full detail when the artist was really just trying to give an overall impression of someone in armour).

However, there are some that are completely unequivocal - one from the 11th century and another from the 14th can't really be interpreted as anything but scale armour, and if the guy on the far ight in th "Betrayal" picture is wearing mail, which he appears to be (as are all the aventails (armour curtains hanging from the helmets)), then the guy second from the right must be wearing scale.

So, if you want to go Byzantine with fine scale armour go right ahead. And have a look in the "I Want to be a . . ." section of the Armour Archive forum to see some good examples of typical Byzanine gear.

[Dan Howard]

I really like that second illustration.

[Ernst]

I really like that second illustration.

Citation if you want it:
http://www.soniahalliday.com/category-v ... 9-2-07.jpg
14th century wall painting, Church of Panagia Phorbiotissa, Asinou, Cyprus