OK, let's figure out early 14th century leg harness.

[wcallen]

It does appear that the design idea (at least a little later in the 14th c.) was for a line that was unencumbered by rivets. It is evidently very possible to make them at least mostly disappear. I don't remember really trying to hide them in the one I did for my kid and we can't find them in the high resolution images I have of the armour. I know that they are there, and where they are. I still can't see them.

I have tried to really hide rivets in the past. If done well, you really can make them disappear pretty well.

Wade

[wcallen]

I haven't ever tried it, but it is possible that they would have found the concept of garters an "obvious" part of the solution to the problem.

Wade

http://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilam ... 3127368063
Since the mail chausses are frequently gartered at the top of the calf, are we sure that "second strap" is attached to the lower poleyn, and not the chausse garter?

We can't rule anything out. But in the one I was looking at, the guy appears to have a mail fringe hanging down from below the knee. The "garter" is clearly over the mail fringe. So it wouldn't serve very well to hold up the chausses.

In the one you post here? He is wearing chausses, so the second strap could be a garter. But it would likely serve almost as well as a garter if it were secured to the cop and it would help hold the cop in place better. We can't be certain either way, but it would seem worth trying. Steve has chausses (unlike most of us) so it would seem like a good chance for some experimentation.

Wade

[Steve S.]

Steve has shown a lot of examples with prominent rivets, but there seem to be as many with no visible rivets.

In my quick perusal of the effigy images yesterday it certainly seems like there are fewer effigies that show rivets than there are effigies that do not. Also, in general, it seems like the later you go in the 14th century the more you see rivets in the effigies.

But I don't know if this means a lot. It could be that the rivets were not there, or that they were just omitted in the artwork, or that they were hidden.

In another thread, I seem to recall the concept that most surviving 14th armour used flush rivets. Would this explain it, or is the lack of visible rivets a shortcoming of either the artist, or their medium?

I have used a countersunk and flush rivet when installing a chin straps in a helmet. You cannot see it from the outside. It has been peened into the countersink and then ground flush with the helmet surface. I only did this when no rivet is actually supposed to be there. I'm not sure that the rivets would be intentionally hidden in this case. But as Wade says and shows, he did not intentionally try to hide his rivets on his cops but you can't see them in the pictures.

Steve

[Chris Gilman]

It's interesting this would come up now, I just started back in on my interpretation of this style. I chose to sew my cop to the padded cuisse and strap the leather and steel cuisse over it. The aa thread on it is here: (pictures are at the bottom of the page and an image without the knee is on page 4)
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=93398&start=140

[Henrik Granlid]

Chris/Gaston, are the boots under the maille ankle height or nerly knee height?

[Chris Gilman]

They come to just below the knee.

[Steve S.]

I chose to sew my cop to the padded cuisse and strap the leather and steel cuisse over it.

OK, so the decorative leather band/strap at the bottom edge of the cuisse is part of the cuisse and not the cop?

Steve

[Chris Gilman]

Yes, it is the decorative leather strap that closes the cuisse. The lower decorative strap will be riveted across the bottom of the cop to secure the lower edge. The greave comes up very high, almost to the bottom of the knee cap. This keeps the cop & greave from gapping and the cop from hanging up on the top of the greave.
There seems to be no real gap on the top of the cop, between the cuisse, but I have thought of a 2 inch band of mail over the leather strip the cop is sewn to.



I traded Kreiger welding for him making greaves, but the greaves were too short for this application so I welded additional material to them and did some reshaping. I rushed to planishing on one weld and got the metal very thin and when I tried to fix it, it became apparent it would always be an issue, so I remade the greave.
Then to be even stupider, I looked at the ridge line on my new finished, sanded, polished greave and decided to move the ridgeline over......I knew better....just leave it.....no, I gota fix that....it'll be thin there....no, I gotta fix it....
it'll crack it get paper thin....No, it really bugs me being off center that much. (which wasn't that much really)
F#$%%^^^$%#CK!! I knew it.
So I smashed it completely flat so I would not be tempted to fix it and now 2 years later, I'm finally making another greave.

[Steve S.]

That is interesting, Chris. I had assumed the cop would be on top of the cuisse as it is over the greave.

But I like the effect of your straps in that there is no strap actually behind the knee.

Steve

[Chris Gilman]

Thanks. This is all based on many effigies and drawings I studied.

[Steve S.]

I saw the effigy you referenced, but it's not clear to me from the pictures of it I was able to see that the upper leather strap is not part of the cop, instead of part of the cuisse as you have done. But there's nothing to say that it is not part of the cuisse, either.

I've started looking at other cops now with the thought that perhaps the cuisse overlaps the cop.

Steve

[Ernst]

There are a few Austrian miniatures which seem to show the back of the cuisse being laced behind the knee.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4506/7851/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4744/13729/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4744/13730/

[Chris Gilman]

Ernst,
These all seem to be much earlier or at least a different style.

Steve,
Many of the effigies of this time the top of the cop is covered with the mail or coat, so who knows? On a couple that you can see, the cop is either articulated or attached to a padded hose like piece and when visible, shows a strap in the center back of the knee. The "Leverick" effigy shows the side of the knees and the top of the cop and look like the strap is on the cuisse. So I'm taking a guess here and trying to see how to make it work if, this where in fact the way it was strapped. Here are two close-ups of the effigy's knees. It looks to me like the top decorative strip/ strap is flush with the cuisse, not the cop. This is what lead me to this approach.




And the Stoddard etching:
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/media/eff ... _r3770.jpg