I'm about to do another set or two of these, and I'd kinda like to have a rough idea of what I should charge for them.
16g cops and besagews, 18g lames....all the brass dots are countersunk (No sharp edges, YEAH!)nails....piercework done with a jeweler's saw....
They were alot of fun to make!
Hey, thanks for your time!
VvS
http://www.arador.com/pauldrons.jpg
What should I charge?
-
David Hagler
- Archive Member
- Posts: 391
- Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Texas
- Contact:
I'm really so much in awe right now, they look so dang good. Can't think of what you would want for them.
Try considering the time, materials, and of coarse skill put into them and you should come up with a good figure. But I'm not saying. They look great. Good work!
One thing though-that piercework does'nt
come cheap from anybody. Takes a lot of time.
I would price that accordingly.
------------------
Flatfork Armouries
davidk_h@yahoo.com
Try considering the time, materials, and of coarse skill put into them and you should come up with a good figure. But I'm not saying. They look great. Good work!
One thing though-that piercework does'nt
come cheap from anybody. Takes a lot of time.
I would price that accordingly.
------------------
Flatfork Armouries
davidk_h@yahoo.com
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Frederich Von Teufel
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1959
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Atlantia, Barony of Marinus (Norfolk, VA)
Hi Vermin. You will find, if you check the back Archive, that this question gets asked a lot. You'll also find that no one will really be able to give you the correct price, because only you know what it should be. We might be able to tell you what _others_ have charged for similar work, but that won't be correct for you, since it wasn't made by someone else.
However, there is a way I can help you, but it does require that you do some math. Here is an exerpt from my soon-to-be-published essay, Running a Profitable Armoury.
________________________________
As many of you old-timers know, every once in awhile I'll get a bug up my butt and make a post about how to run a shop (although usually it's in response to someone asking "How much should I charge for this?")
This time it isn't. It's just been something that's been on my mind recently. If you aren’t interested, by all means go on to another topic. I’m going to be throwing formulas at you, so you’ve been forewarned.
Let’s go back to that question I just mentioned. "How much should I charge for this piece of armour?" This is really easy, because you know exactly how much it cost you to make it, right? What? You don’t? Oh boy.
Here is the formula you need to figure out how much it cost you to make something.
Materials + Labor&Overhead + Profit = Cost of Item
Materials are everything that went into making the item. That is the sheet metal, rivits, barstock, etc.
Labor is what YOU, as the business, are paid, otherwise known as the Shop Rate or Hourly Rate. This includes things like Overhead and cost of running the business. You know how much the Shop Rate is, don’t you? What? You don’t? Oh hell, I’ll get to that in a bit, so just hold on.
Profit is the percentage of the previous three items (Materials, Labor, and Overhead). The reason this is included is simple. If it isn’t included, then you are giving away things like Materials AT COST. All business are entitled to make a profit off such deals. Remember that we are talking THE BUSINESS here, not YOU the armourer. The business should be making a profit off your Labor, the Materials, and the Overhead. This profit should go back into the business to allow it to expand, and to account for the unforeseen.
Now let’s have an example here. ABC Armoury has just made a helm. Using the above formula, the armourer knows that Materials cost $20.00, the Shop Rate was $25.00 per hour (and it took 15 hours to make the helm), and the Profit is 5% (quite small actually, most retail stores have a Profit of 50% or more, although that Profit is usually based solely on the Wholesale Cost of the item, and doesn’t include things like Shop Rate.)
Now we have Materials ($20.00) + Labor (15x$25.00=$375) + Profit ([20+375].05=$19.75) = Cost of Helm ($414.75) This would normally be rounded up to $415.00
Now, that should be (crosses fingers) fairly straight forward. But how to figure out Shop Rate?
Well, there we get a bit more complex. You see, Shop Rate isn’t just what you are getting paid per hour, it includes a whole lot more.
Let’s use an example here. ABC Armoury has read a few books, been to a few classes, and has a friend who is a CPA, and knows that, if he wants to have a business, he needs to run it like a business. He totals up his entire expenses for his business and figures out what money he is going to be paying out each month. Here are his totals:
Insurance (This is a business here, who knows what could happen. The business has insurance in case of flood or fire.)
Bank Charges (He has a business checking and savings account. Unlike personal ones, banks charge you for the privilege of letting them use your money.)
Loan (ABC had to take out a loan to buy all those nice tools. Banks have an unfortunate desire of wanting their money back.)
Interest (Not all banks include the interest with the loan payments. This one doesn’t.)
Shipping Costs (Not all of ABC’s customers are local, things need to be mailed.)
Utilities (Running things like lighting, grinders and such cost money. As do plumbing, phones, etc., etc.)
Advertising (this includes flyers, catalogs, internet costs, and anything else that promotes the business.)
Rent on the shop space (ABC has found a nice 500 sq. foot shop space to rent rather than trying to run the shop out of his garage. This gives him a unique address to have for his business and presents a better front for the IRS as well as his bank.)
Maintenance and Repair (making armour is a wear on the tools used. This wear-and-tear needs to be pro-rated and charged.)
Consumables (this is all the things that are used up when armour is being made: sanding belts, buffing compound, the metal that got cut away from the pattern (the scrap), acetylene and oxygen for welding, etc.)
Travel Expenses (ABC travels to events to sell his wares, as well as to and from shops to pick up supplies. This should include gas, tolls, site fees, as well as wear-and-tear on the vehicle itself.)
Supplies (This includes the day to day supplies of running a business: paper, pens, printer ink, etc.)
Workman Pay (THIS is what ABC actually gets paid, everything else has been for the business. ABC knows that he needs to make $27,000 a year to pay for things like food, clothing, his home mortgage, etc.)
Health Insurance (You DO have health insurance, don’t you? This comes out of Workman Pay, however, the business doesn’t get charged for it. Make sure it is accounted for in Workman Pay though.)
Other Taxes (The government wants a cut of whatever you earn; this is it.)
Misc. (There are always miscellaneous charges that you can’t plan for ahead of time. This accounts for them.
That’s quite a lot, now isn’t that? Remember now that these are all YEARLY TOTALS of the charges. It might look something like this:
Insurance - $800
Bank Charges - $180
Loan Payment and Interest - $200
Shipping Costs - $600
Utilities - $2500
Advertising - $600
Rent on the shop space - $1800
Maintenance and Repair - $400
Consumables - $250
Travel Expenses - $600
Supplies - $150
Workman Pay - $27,000
Other Taxes - $600
Misc. - $150
This is a Grand Total of $35830.
Now, to figure out how much the Shop Rate should be, you divide the Grand Total by the number of man hours worked in a year, 1,440.
35830/1440 = 24.88. Round up (NEVER down) to the nearest whole dollar, $25.00. See where that came from now?
So now, how much are you going to charge for that suit of armour your building right this second?
___________________________________________
There you go, hope it helped.
Frederich
However, there is a way I can help you, but it does require that you do some math. Here is an exerpt from my soon-to-be-published essay, Running a Profitable Armoury.
________________________________
As many of you old-timers know, every once in awhile I'll get a bug up my butt and make a post about how to run a shop (although usually it's in response to someone asking "How much should I charge for this?")
This time it isn't. It's just been something that's been on my mind recently. If you aren’t interested, by all means go on to another topic. I’m going to be throwing formulas at you, so you’ve been forewarned.
Let’s go back to that question I just mentioned. "How much should I charge for this piece of armour?" This is really easy, because you know exactly how much it cost you to make it, right? What? You don’t? Oh boy.
Here is the formula you need to figure out how much it cost you to make something.
Materials + Labor&Overhead + Profit = Cost of Item
Materials are everything that went into making the item. That is the sheet metal, rivits, barstock, etc.
Labor is what YOU, as the business, are paid, otherwise known as the Shop Rate or Hourly Rate. This includes things like Overhead and cost of running the business. You know how much the Shop Rate is, don’t you? What? You don’t? Oh hell, I’ll get to that in a bit, so just hold on.
Profit is the percentage of the previous three items (Materials, Labor, and Overhead). The reason this is included is simple. If it isn’t included, then you are giving away things like Materials AT COST. All business are entitled to make a profit off such deals. Remember that we are talking THE BUSINESS here, not YOU the armourer. The business should be making a profit off your Labor, the Materials, and the Overhead. This profit should go back into the business to allow it to expand, and to account for the unforeseen.
Now let’s have an example here. ABC Armoury has just made a helm. Using the above formula, the armourer knows that Materials cost $20.00, the Shop Rate was $25.00 per hour (and it took 15 hours to make the helm), and the Profit is 5% (quite small actually, most retail stores have a Profit of 50% or more, although that Profit is usually based solely on the Wholesale Cost of the item, and doesn’t include things like Shop Rate.)
Now we have Materials ($20.00) + Labor (15x$25.00=$375) + Profit ([20+375].05=$19.75) = Cost of Helm ($414.75) This would normally be rounded up to $415.00
Now, that should be (crosses fingers) fairly straight forward. But how to figure out Shop Rate?
Well, there we get a bit more complex. You see, Shop Rate isn’t just what you are getting paid per hour, it includes a whole lot more.
Let’s use an example here. ABC Armoury has read a few books, been to a few classes, and has a friend who is a CPA, and knows that, if he wants to have a business, he needs to run it like a business. He totals up his entire expenses for his business and figures out what money he is going to be paying out each month. Here are his totals:
Insurance (This is a business here, who knows what could happen. The business has insurance in case of flood or fire.)
Bank Charges (He has a business checking and savings account. Unlike personal ones, banks charge you for the privilege of letting them use your money.)
Loan (ABC had to take out a loan to buy all those nice tools. Banks have an unfortunate desire of wanting their money back.)
Interest (Not all banks include the interest with the loan payments. This one doesn’t.)
Shipping Costs (Not all of ABC’s customers are local, things need to be mailed.)
Utilities (Running things like lighting, grinders and such cost money. As do plumbing, phones, etc., etc.)
Advertising (this includes flyers, catalogs, internet costs, and anything else that promotes the business.)
Rent on the shop space (ABC has found a nice 500 sq. foot shop space to rent rather than trying to run the shop out of his garage. This gives him a unique address to have for his business and presents a better front for the IRS as well as his bank.)
Maintenance and Repair (making armour is a wear on the tools used. This wear-and-tear needs to be pro-rated and charged.)
Consumables (this is all the things that are used up when armour is being made: sanding belts, buffing compound, the metal that got cut away from the pattern (the scrap), acetylene and oxygen for welding, etc.)
Travel Expenses (ABC travels to events to sell his wares, as well as to and from shops to pick up supplies. This should include gas, tolls, site fees, as well as wear-and-tear on the vehicle itself.)
Supplies (This includes the day to day supplies of running a business: paper, pens, printer ink, etc.)
Workman Pay (THIS is what ABC actually gets paid, everything else has been for the business. ABC knows that he needs to make $27,000 a year to pay for things like food, clothing, his home mortgage, etc.)
Health Insurance (You DO have health insurance, don’t you? This comes out of Workman Pay, however, the business doesn’t get charged for it. Make sure it is accounted for in Workman Pay though.)
Other Taxes (The government wants a cut of whatever you earn; this is it.)
Misc. (There are always miscellaneous charges that you can’t plan for ahead of time. This accounts for them.
That’s quite a lot, now isn’t that? Remember now that these are all YEARLY TOTALS of the charges. It might look something like this:
Insurance - $800
Bank Charges - $180
Loan Payment and Interest - $200
Shipping Costs - $600
Utilities - $2500
Advertising - $600
Rent on the shop space - $1800
Maintenance and Repair - $400
Consumables - $250
Travel Expenses - $600
Supplies - $150
Workman Pay - $27,000
Other Taxes - $600
Misc. - $150
This is a Grand Total of $35830.
Now, to figure out how much the Shop Rate should be, you divide the Grand Total by the number of man hours worked in a year, 1,440.
35830/1440 = 24.88. Round up (NEVER down) to the nearest whole dollar, $25.00. See where that came from now?
So now, how much are you going to charge for that suit of armour your building right this second?
___________________________________________
There you go, hope it helped.
Frederich
-
Ideval
- Archive Member
- Posts: 10092
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Northern California
- Contact:
How about pricing from this perspective: find a base or munitions price, and then add on the detail costs by the going rates. Most armouries on-line give costs for things like price per foot of roped edge, brass rivets, countersinking, stepped edging, piercework, besegues, et cetera. Oh yeah, and polish. See how Gundo feels about polishing, and then see his cost for polishing.
I purchased a similar pair of pauldrons from Illusion, but had them made without any brass, flutes, scalloped edges, or anything else fancy. The cost was 140.00.
As a pair of bare pauldrons, I would start your cost at no less than 160.00 and work up by detail. For a custom pair, i.e. to someone's measurements, I would start at a base cost of 180.00. Besegues would put start cost at 200.00. I think this is fair.
Your armour looks to be of fine quality. Continue to post your projects, please.
------------------
Idëval
The Huntsman of
I-Nossë Lúmëvanwa
My mind opens wide when I roar
I purchased a similar pair of pauldrons from Illusion, but had them made without any brass, flutes, scalloped edges, or anything else fancy. The cost was 140.00.
As a pair of bare pauldrons, I would start your cost at no less than 160.00 and work up by detail. For a custom pair, i.e. to someone's measurements, I would start at a base cost of 180.00. Besegues would put start cost at 200.00. I think this is fair.
Your armour looks to be of fine quality. Continue to post your projects, please.
------------------
Idëval
The Huntsman of
I-Nossë Lúmëvanwa
My mind opens wide when I roar
-
Jean-Claude
- New Member
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Indianapolis IN USA
Wow, thanks for your input, all of you.
Frederich, VERY enlightening...I too look forward to the finished article.
On the subject of materials-
Just as an off the cuff kinda thing, what kind of % difference should there be on identical products in different materials?
Say aluminium vs stainless.
I dunno if I'd want to charge 200 bucks for a set of plain pauldrons like those, w/ besagues in aluminium.
(Of course having to be more careful about the material cracking ups the amount of time required for the product.....)
But still.....
What do you all think?
Thanks, again!
VvS
Frederich, VERY enlightening...I too look forward to the finished article.
On the subject of materials-
Just as an off the cuff kinda thing, what kind of % difference should there be on identical products in different materials?
Say aluminium vs stainless.
I dunno if I'd want to charge 200 bucks for a set of plain pauldrons like those, w/ besagues in aluminium.
(Of course having to be more careful about the material cracking ups the amount of time required for the product.....)
But still.....
What do you all think?
Thanks, again!
VvS