Goll's Thesis Topic #2: New details on well known objects

[Mac]

Regarding grouping the same objects together that's more tricky, as for now Pinterest doesn't allow you to do that.

Well, that explains a lot about the Pinterest pages I have seen. They always have a cluttered look.. like someone's attic or storage shed. I hope they fix that, and allow folks to organize their pics.

Mac

[Gustovic]

Thanks Mac, I looked them up.

Thing is that most of them present that small metal loop for letting the strap of the demi-greave to pass through, and I always though that that was a feature of later greaves.

Any hint or suggestion?

[Mac]

I would not dismiss them on basis of that. For one, I don't think we can tell for sure when strap loops and hooks came into existence. Secondly, it is easy to add a thing like that, either during the greave's working life, or later.

To me the important thing about those greaves is that their overall shape and their hinging is old style. Like is said earlier, they may well not be 14th C in sensu stricto, but many of our favorite "14th C" armor pieces are really from the early 15th C.

We have so few early greaves that we really must look at these for their form and mechanics, even if we continue to question the strap loops and hooks.

Mac

[Mac]

I wrote the post above before doing the obvious thing. If we look here we can see that the left greave from Chartres has holes that suggest some sort of strap restraint. (the photo of the right greave has deep shadows here, so it is not easy to tell) So, I think we must conclude that this feature was known by the early 1380s in France.

The images here http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistr ... SPECIFIC=3 can be zoomed a bit.



The other feature of early greaves is the shallow and asymmetrical ankle coverage. The Chartres example here shows this very well. The armor just barely covers the maleoli of the ankle. Since the lateral maleolus is lower than the medial one, the armor is deeper on the outside.

Mac

[Gustovic]

I'm kinda done with the museum reference. What kind of information you would like to see next? Type of protection?

[Gustovic]

Actually I found I way to reorganize the pins inside an album. Shortly everything will be nice and ordered.

[Tom B.]

I added links to the PDF's and the photos

Augusto,

Here are Goll numbers for some greaves which might be of interest. None of them are firmly dated and most are probably the early 15th C, however they have the characteristics of early greaves. That is to say, the lower hinges are above the ankle boss, and the greave back is quite shallow from front to back at the ankle. In addition, some have the straps and buckles mounted in slots.

2940 These greaves (or some parts of them) are quite old Likewise the cuises.


2291 These greaves in Glasgow are an early form. Note the strap slots and the lower hinge placement.


2309 This greave in the Bargello is of an old form


2348 this greave back in Munich is an old form. Note the placement of the rivet holes for the lower hinge.

Mac

[Tom B.]

... and here is the Goll number for a leather vambrace from Dortrecht 5121

Mac

PDF for 5121

[Tom B.]

... and here is the Goll number for a leather vambrace from Dortrecht 5121

Mac

PDF for 5121

I now have a real photo!
Thanks to one of my Facebook friends, Edvards Puciriuss.

[Mac]

It's great to finally see a picture of it. There's no doubt about what it is.

Mac

[Tom B.]

Chuck Davis has found a very interesting detail on ref arm 1471
Unusual feature of the barrel helm in Goll thesis

This is exactly why I posted all of these photos and started these threads!

[Tom B.]

Goll 2371

Are these "lining straps" original?
The lining in the upper cuisse plate looks to be old and shows some wear.

[Tom B.]

Any comments on my above post about lining straps?

[Tom B.]

Not unknown to me but now with much better photos.
The bar across the face of the sallet displayed as part of A62

Goll 1697

[Tom B.]

As far as I know only other bar, like the one I posted above, across the face of a sallet is on the Churburg CHS62 sallet.
Anyone know of others?

Goll 1690

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Chris Dobson once showed me some photos that showed something very similar in the schaller now on A 60. When I examined the helmet in '95, though, I don't remember seeing it. It is thought that the structure in Churburg CHS62, with the downward projection, was for trapping the lip of a high bevor, helping it to stay in the right place to protect better from a lance strike.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Mmm, mmm... isn't that turned edge at the top of the bevor something...

A 62 ref_arm_1697_002.jpeg (70.94 KiB) Viewed 560 times

[Tom B.]

Mmm, mmm... isn't that turned edge at the top of the bevor something...

It sure is nothing short of spectacular!

It is impressive to look at the complex shape of cross section and note the nice taper down in size from center to sides.

Then there is the unimaginable difficulty of acheiving the almost flawless shape at the center / apex. The amount of stretching then compression that the center bit of metal must go through is pretty crazy.

[Kristoffer]

I have a feeling the hem is a separate piece held in place by the liner rivets. If not, then double wow.

[Tom B.]

I have a feeling the hem is a separate piece held in place by the liner rivets. If not, then double wow.

I have access to a few pics that unfortunately I can't share.
In a couple of views I was able to zoom and and look at the back edge of the roll.
The roll appears to be integral to the bevor and not a separate piece.

The views are not clear enough to be 100% certain but when viewed from 3 different angles I do not see any evidence of the roll being a separate piece.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

That edge is turned to the outside over air.

[wcallen]

Turned out over air.

Yup.

And with that odd sweep in what I would normally think of as the "face" of the roll. It is something that I have been noticing on this cool late 15th c. German armour. Normally around the breastplate arms and neck. This just seems to be a really aggressive version of the same thing. After I started noticing them, I finally decided to take the plunge and get a pretty low end version of the form in my ex Dean breastplate. The upper has the basic form of the same rolls. Other than the lance rest, there really isn't anything else that is worth noting on my example. But it fun to be able to play with one.

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-2 ... detail.jpg

The roll on that bevor is definitely the super cool version of the same idea taken to the next level.

Wade

[Kristoffer]

This is witchcraft.

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

Wade, the turns on yours are a couple of miles higher in the beauty department than the norm. Most turns look pretty rough by comparison. See Goll # 3625 for example.

[Kristoffer]

Yes, it is suprising to see so pretty hems but the not so flattering central point decorations. Its a pity they did not spend a bit more love on those, it would have lifted the whole piece a lot.

[Tom B.]

Yes, it is suprising to see so pretty hems but the not so flattering central point decorations. Its a pity they did not spend a bit more love on those, it would have lifted the whole piece a lot.

The plackart is associated...
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-237.html

1490
German. Composed. Upper plate with outward turned triangular rolls at the neck and arms. Plackart formed of one main plate and two smaller plates. Plackart associated. Plackart lames somewhat reworked to fit upper. Some modern internal patches in original plates. One end of the upper breastplate extended to match other side. Modern fauld of four lames. Upper plate fitted with a folding lance rest secured by two bolts from he inside. Lance rest described as modern in sale description. After removal and investigation the details of construction and wear indicate that there is a possibility that the lance rest is actually of the period, though associated. It compares very closely to those which survive on the Vienna gothic armours of the same period. There are also similarities to the lance rest on slightly later Mantova B-8. The bolts are also similar to one of those on the Mantova armour. Two modern buckles at the shoulders. Ex. JW Higgins armoury inv. no. 802. From Dr Bashford Dean, Riverdale, New York, purchased from his estate, 28th September 1929. Exhibited Rockefeller Center, New York, 1 - 30 June 1965 and Brandeis University, Waltham, Massachusetts, 9 April - 16 September 1963

The lance rest is pretty sweet, I spent quite a bit of time looking it over in great detail during the last study session at Wade's place.

[Tom B.]

Wade, the turns on yours are a couple of miles higher in the beauty department than the norm. Most turns look pretty rough by comparison. See Goll # 3625 for example.

Goll #3625 PDF

[wcallen]

The rolls on my upper breastplate really are grand.
The lance rest is really pretty too.

I woudn't trust the rest of the thing as far as I can throw it (not that I plan to do that). Dean and his guys could do some pretty amazing things marrying one decent piece to other stuff. Being an optimist, I think that there is some real chance that the other plates in the breast itself may have originally come from a breastplate of a similar form. I can't say how much mangling, trimming, adding or reforming happened along the way (well, some of the changes are pretty obvious).

So, just put your hand over everything that isn't upper breastplate and lance rest when you look at the pictures.

I would personally love to get my hands on a nice, complete "nasty" late 15th c. breastplate. So far it hasn't happened.

Wade

[Tom B.]

I think I have missed this until just now.
Short leather straps on the sides joining upper and lower breastplate pieces.
All of these examples are from Churburg so they should be trustworthy, some may even have original straps.

Goll #3720 is what I am used to seeing, connection by 3 sliding rivets.


The following examples show the new to me straps.

Goll #3716


Goll #3717


Goll #3718


Goll #3719


Goll #3721


Goll #3722

[Tom B.]

Also note that several of the breastplates have the "Mushroom Rivets" we discussed in another thread.
Goll's Thesis Topic #1: Mushroom Rivets and removable straps

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

I have long had the impression that the side straps are a feature of Italian export pieces. I have seen a fair number of German breasts that have only the central rivet, as absurd as that may seem.

[wcallen]

I have long had the impression that the side straps are a feature of Italian export pieces. I have seen a fair number of German breasts that have only the central rivet, as absurd as that may seem.

Agreed.

And even more perversely, I have seen (more than I would expect from thinking about it ) German ones that have a single connection in the middle, but it is made by means of a bolt. I have seen a few taken apart and played personally with one. The one I played with had three (I think it was 3, it might have been 2) different holes at different heights. The inner (upper) breastplate itself was tapped for the bolt which is screwed in from the outside. This would allow some adjustment in height, but no actual central sliding. In these cases there appears to have been no provision for side attachment either.

Being able to tap the breastplate itself was possible due to a combination of 2 things:
- the thing was pretty thick in the middle
- material appeared to have been drifted while making the hole or pushed out of the way during tapping (probably both) which added some more material right where it was needed for the threads.

Wade

[Tom B.]

I have long had the impression that the side straps are a feature of Italian export pieces. I have seen a fair number of German breasts that have only the central rivet, as absurd as that may seem.

Agreed.

And even more perversely, I have seen (more than I would expect from thinking about it ) German ones that have a single connection in the middle, but it is made by means of a bolt. I have seen a few taken apart and played personally with one. The one I played with had three (I think it was 3, it might have been 2) different holes at different heights. The inner (upper) breastplate itself was tapped for the bolt which is screwed in from the outside. This would allow some adjustment in height, but no actual central sliding. In these cases there appears to have been no provision for side attachment either.

Being able to tap the breastplate itself was possible due to a combination of 2 things:
- the thing was pretty thick in the middle
- material appeared to have been drifted while making the hole or pushed out of the way during tapping (probably both) which added some more material right where it was needed for the threads.

Wade

Here are a few examples of the German one bolt / rivet style.
One of which has several threaded holes as Wade described.

Goll #3618


Goll #3625


Goll #3632