Forming late period gauntlets

[Kristoffer]

I have picked up a project I put down some time ago and the time we spent apart has given me some insights. However, I am curious to know how people who make late period gauntlets composed of many pieces go about in the process.

I am considering riveting all the pieces from the wrist to the knuckles together so I can give them all shape at the same time. This is because I find it very fiddly trying to give each lame shape and fit it to the previous and next lame at the same time. I am a bit hesitant to do this because I fear the metal will become too snug and not articulate when I replace the rivets with ones that are not firmly set.

Can anyone share their process or some neat tricks of how to make the process easier?

[Myron]

Not and expert, but on the gauntlets I make I like to roughly get each part to the shape needed, then rivet together and fine tune over a ball stake. Before riveting, I use machine screws to test it out in the rough shape. I usually don't set the rivets too tight in case there is a problem while working.

When it's all together I peen the rivets a little more so the washers don't pop off when in use. Here's my late 15h German inspired sport gauntlets (minus all the fancy fluting and decoration) I made this way that were pretty easy to put together once I got all the rivet holes in the right place.

[Kristoffer]

The gauntlets I am working on are based on these:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-227.html

Not a simple task but I believe my pattern is on the right path. I am curious to know how others would tackle a piece like this.

[Kristoffer]

I have also done gauntlets by rough shaping everything then make the holes and use screws to hold them together, then beat them over a ball. This does not produce the shape I am after on a gauntlet like this. Also, the machine screws get deformed and does not stay tight when I start hammering the lames.

Another problem is that the location of the holes rarely end up just where I want them after the lames have altered shape.

Would it be an idea to spot heat the lames and shape them one by one when riveted together?

[Konstantin the Red]

Do Clecos deform that way from hammering the surrounding metal?

To work properly, the Cleco has to be the same diameter as the hole.

How hard are you hitting, anyway?

[Sevastian]

I've had clecos blow out but usually after some ill advised pounding. I try to get pieces fit fairly close before drilling holes.

[Kristoffer]

Clecos are not available here so I have nerver used them. I'll use rivet instead of screws. It has been suggested that I rivet the pinky side then finish the forming of the lames before doing the holes on the thumb side.

[Johann ColdIron]

Clecos are not available here so I have nerver used them. I'll use rivet instead of screws. It has been suggested that I rivet the pinky side then finish the forming of the lames before doing the holes on the thumb side.

When using rivets for temp articulation poke them outwards and add washers to the piened end. That makes them much easier to remove without damaging the work piece. Just grind till you hit washer.

The gaunt you plan to make is a beauty. Wade has several that have similar characteristics. Most importantly the curve of the bell in the cuff. We were just looking at a couple he has along with the obvious fake. The cuff shape gives it away. There is also a curve to square-ish transition at the back of the hand that is important if you want it to actually fit a human.

[wcallen]

I just bothered to look at which if my gauntlets interests you.

Yes, that one is fun. It has a lot of details that are about as far away from "easy, flat metal put together to form a gauntlet" as you can get in one of these late pieces.

The few I have made that were similar I patterned, cut, basically formed, assembled, then "massaged" together the pieces, then took them apart and fixed all of the things that went wrong during the massaging. This (at least) involves a full plannish because you probably got kinks in the plates at the edges of the other plates. I definitely don't try to get all of the shape with the things together, just the more subtle integration of the pieces.

I used to use bolts. They get all chewed up. Now I use rivets and washers as John indicated. They last as long and they are cheaper.

You will want to think this one through in paper a good deal before you start playing with metal. There isn't anything straightforward here - the cuff bends in every direction and the lames are about as far away from straight strips with little extensions on the end as you can get. The finger plates are pretty straightforward, but this is a very late and somewhat degenerate version of the lovely 16th c. form.

Wade

[Kristoffer]

I picked these because of the whole thumb base cover instead of the more common hinged thumb. It has an interesting and pleasing form. (But your A-224 is a very sexy beast).

I am trying to develop a good method of making gauntlets of similar style and as a learning project.

I did a hand cast that I used to pattern the back of the hand. I have cut the pieces and I am working on the shape and the mechanics. If I am somewhat successful I will make a cast of my whole hand and lower arm.

As a side note, I did my hand cast while holding an emulated weapon handle. This feels like the most important position of the gauntlet and I work with this hand position as my step stone.

[wcallen]

A-224 has some fun elements too.

Usually the hard part about patterning these things comes from trying to get the "droop" to work. To a greater or lesser extent these gauntlets allow the wrist to bend forward (I think of it as down). This means that the plates need to have just the right curvature to make this happen. To further annoy you, as the wrist straightens and then bends backward, a really well built gauntlet will have the plates ride right on top of each other through most of this motion. The result is a very, very specific shape. The shape isn't all that odd on a "normal" gauntlet, but on the ones where the plates cover the thumb it does get interesting.

The videos at the bottom of this page illustrate the point:
http://www.allenantiques.com/Details.html

This one shows an ugly gauntlet with particularly nice motion:
http://www.allenantiques.com/movies/Rus ... vement.mp4

What all this means is that you probably want to build the gauntlet on a more idealized form of a hand. It does need to fit, but it bends across the back of the hand, not just at the wrist. And this particular gauntlet sort of rolls down and out (somewhat) at the same time due to the geometry of the pivot locations. Overall very elegant, but very easy to get wrong.

I cheated on the first pair of these I made. I traced the plates on this gauntlet:
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-28.html

which also has some very nice shape. When we bolted it all together, it worked very nicely. Then we put the crease down the back of the hand and the plates caught on each other. The movement was so close that when you bent the hand back it would lock. We fixed this by adding the notches at the crease (like the original). If you zoom in on this image: http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-2 ... f-hand.jpg you can see signs of rubbing. They go all the way across the plates, showing how closely the plates move on each other.

I do own real ones that don't work nearly as well. So if you don't get it quite there, you are probably still within the range they would have accepted.

Wade

[Konstantin the Red]

Clecos are not available here so I have nerver used them. I'll use rivet instead of screws. It has been suggested that I rivet the pinky side then finish the forming of the lames before doing the holes on the thumb side.

They're used in the aviation industry. Are you looking in the right place?

Lengths of drill rod should also be satisfactory when fitted tightly enough.

[Signo]

I ordered clecos from the USA years ago, they are cheap, light, and it's no problem at all to have them readily shipped to you.
http://www.panamericantool.com/cleco-fasteners.html

[Mac]

I typically use threaded fasteners for this sort of work. They are cheap and fast enough to assemble and disassemble for my needs. If I intend to stress relieve the assembly, I use bolts that have already been "roasted".

Other times I use flat headed rivets and washers like Johann suggested. I do this if....

--I think I can get a lot of work done without needing to disassemble the parts.
--The screws keep getting loose and I am tired of re-tightening them.
--I need to hammer closer to the pivots than the screws will allow.
--I think the work will be violent enough that the bolts might fail.

Concerning this last situation... I typically use #5 stainless machine screws to simulate 1/8" rivets. These will stand up to anything you are likely to do to them in the context of gauntlets, but all bets are off for helmet and breastplate work. Rivets will withstand much more abuse than the same size of bolt.

Mac

[Mac]

Working a series of lames as an assembly is a powerful technique, but it does have limitations.

--You are at the mercy of your initial lame shapes. This is the thing that Wade alluded to earlier. You still have to work out the geometry of each lame, and make each one have (at least approximately) the right outline before bending them to shape.

--You can't put in the necessary compound curvature while the lames are assembled. Each lame will still have to be hammered individually to give it the "life" it will need.

--You are limited as to how hard you can hammer the assembly. Unless you are careful, the edges of the lames will be driven into the surfaces of their partners. This can be mitigated some by chamfering the edges, both inside and outside. You will want to do that anyway, but you may end up doing it twice in places that needed to be trimmed to make the "reveals" all nice and even.

Mac

[wcallen]

Everything Mac said is accurate.

When I am working in nice soft material (mild or dead annealed 1050) I can get a reasonable amount of the funky shape (assuming the plates have the right pattern in the first place) while all of the plates are together. But, you will get bends and kinks where the plates overlap each other. I take that as part of the game. When I said planish afterward, and Mac says "hammered individually to give it life" we are using two different ways of saying the same thing. You will take the thing back apart and hammer the entire surface of all of the plates individually. Luckily, these are small plates. Fitting each to the rest as you clean up each plate.

The cuff will take a lot of hammering, more than you expect. There are some very specific early 16th c. cuffs that are mostly flat (if you don't count the rolls, recessed borders and flutes), but these later ones really need pretty lively shaping all over the cuffs.

Wade

[Kristoffer]

After very close inspection I see that the lames are flat. Super flat. Almost as flat as a hand hammered piece ever could be made. This means that the hammerwork on modern sheet must be done very lightly so that it doesn't get too much of a curve. I am guessing this is the key to get the right droop.

Thinking out loud.

So if I get the right flatishness and the right squareness along the sides of the hand it all comes down to the pattern. The placement of the rivets are also pretty critical. I am currently working from my hand cast to achieve a shape following my hand closely. I might be forced to do some reverse engineering if my current attempt proves to be a faliure. If so, I could use the hand cast and sculpt a gauntlet on top of the cast using clay, then pattern from there. The fact that I never have handled a real gauntlet and only have pictures to work from is really showing.

[Mac]

I am guessing this is the key to get the right droop.

Getting the right motion out of the gauntlet is all about the lame shapes and pivot positions. The compound curvature is about getting it to look graceful when it is "drooped".

The placement of the rivets are also pretty critical.

If you get it all worked out in thin cardboard and paper fasteners, your pivot locations will be very close to correct. If you make the gauntlets out of thin stuff like 20ga, they may well be spot on. If you use thicker stuff, you will have to "slack them off" a bit.

I am currently working from my hand cast to achieve a shape following my hand closely. I might be forced to do some reverse engineering if my current attempt proves to be a faliure. If so, I could use the hand cast and sculpt a gauntlet on top of the cast using clay, then pattern from there. The fact that I never have handled a real gauntlet and only have pictures to work from is really showing.

I would not recommend working over a hand cast. The grip you have taken in the cast may or may not be a good neutral position for the gauntlet. In addition, you wont be able to try the steel on the casting because it will not fit through the wrist.

It's important to remember that you don't want a gauntlet that looks like your hand any more than you would want a shoe that looks like your foot. Make the gauntlet look like a gauntlet. If you size it correctly, it will fit your hand.

Mac

[Tableau]

This is a great thread. I'm storing all this gauntlet information in my brain for later.

Anyway, I'm just going to leave this here.

[Ckanite]

I LOVE my fivefingers!!! I always think that they would be great for going under a pair of sabatons...

[Kristoffer]

After some hammering on my first pattern and reading all the comments in this thread, all advice given is now cystal clear to me.

I screwed up by putting the rivet locations on the pinky side about the same distance from each other as the ones on the thumb side. Big mistake. I made new holes closer to each other wich forced me to trim the front of each lame. The modifications caused my thumb rivets to become all screwed up.

I skipped making a little cuff plate. This caused me to give the first lame totally wrong shape. Modifying the first lame renders the shapes of all other lames obsolete.

My plan now is to make everything over from scratch and do the whole thing in very heavy cardboard, starting from the cuff and not from the wrist this time and assemble it with screws.

I understand what Wade say about this piece being as far from simple shapes as you can get.

Does anyone know of any pictures of this type of gauntlet bent backwards and in the middle position? It seems like all of Wades pics are in the droop position. It would also be nice to see one in "perfect" side/top view..

[wcallen]

I take pictures in positions that seem like fun to me. And some positions don't sit nicely.

Take a look at all of the images of all of the gauntlets on my site. There are a variety of poses.

Also:

http://www.allenantiques.com/movies/Rus ... vement.mp4

A video of a later 16th c. gauntlet moving.

Wade

[Kristoffer]

How much curve should I aim for in the lames? If I make a straight line between the rivet holes on each lame I currently measure about 13mm from the line to the edge of the lame.